Doctrine of Unconditional Election
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Jesus already told us that little children are within the Kingdom of God (since they cannot respond to the Gospel). The same would apply to anyone mentally incapable of understanding the Gospel. Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and even John Calvin had to admit that, and stated it in His commentaries. But then he created his own warped theology knowingly.
Okay so you're saying that babies are in the kingdom of heaven because they're babies, but, because they age, they are somehow removed from it? At what age does the Bible instruct that occurs? Knowing that would be a critically important piece of information to have should one's salvation be dependent upon it, wouldn't it? Same with the infirm - while infirm they're in it, but if they improve, they're taken away from it? So then, your belief is that one's salvation depends upon their condition or state at any given point in time? Is that how you see it?
By the above, we can see the problem that arises for those who believe as you do -- those who believe the recipients of salvation must do something to get it. It becomes like a too small bed sheet: pull it one way and the feet are exposed, pull another and the chest is. The same salvation principals must govern everyone equally regardless of a person's particular attributes or situation. Too many exceptions and carve-outs exist for your way to have truly come from God. What makes God's salvation plan so marvelous and wonderful is that He alone gives it to whomever He so chooses to give it, regardless of any external or personal factors. Only God could do that.
By the way, Christ died for the world to come, not this current world. This world is to be destroyed by God not saved.
Regarding Calvin's statement, personally, I don't know, nor do I care what he said, but post it anyway so we can see the whole thing.
By the above, we can see the problem that arises for those who believe as you do -- those who believe the recipients of salvation must do something to get it. It becomes like a too small bed sheet: pull it one way and the feet are exposed, pull another and the chest is. The same salvation principals must govern everyone equally regardless of a person's particular attributes or situation. Too many exceptions and carve-outs exist for your way to have truly come from God. What makes God's salvation plan so marvelous and wonderful is that He alone gives it to whomever He so chooses to give it, regardless of any external or personal factors. Only God could do that.
By the way, Christ died for the world to come, not this current world. This world is to be destroyed by God not saved.
Regarding Calvin's statement, personally, I don't know, nor do I care what he said, but post it anyway so we can see the whole thing.
FreeGrace2 said:
Your error is assuming that Scripture truth IS calvinism. It isn't. Any more than Arminianism is Scripture truth.
So your whole defense is to just repeat yourself??
If you want, I can refute the ENTIRE TULIP. One petal at a time.
Your error is assuming that Scripture truth IS calvinism. It isn't. Any more than Arminianism is Scripture truth.
So your whole defense is to just repeat yourself??
If you want, I can refute the ENTIRE TULIP. One petal at a time.
FreeGrace2 said:
If this is true, then you should able to show verses that say it.
Can you?
By that, I mean GIVE the verses that do say it.
Interesting non responsive comment.
When others ask me for verses, I don't punt. I just give them again.
The fact that you have punted says everything. Thanks for the view.
btw, for context, what I asked for was a verse or verses that specifically teach that Christ ONLY died for some, regardless of how they are described.
What the Bible DOES teach is that Jesus Christ died for all. And, no, there is no other descriptive, such as "all the elect" or "all the frozen chosen" or etc.
Let's do this: pick out the one verse that you believe is the most clear about Christ's death being selective for just a few, or not for everyone.
And then I'll discuss it with you. Fair enough?
If this is true, then you should able to show verses that say it.
Can you?
By that, I mean GIVE the verses that do say it.
Interesting non responsive comment.
When others ask me for verses, I don't punt. I just give them again.
The fact that you have punted says everything. Thanks for the view.
btw, for context, what I asked for was a verse or verses that specifically teach that Christ ONLY died for some, regardless of how they are described.
What the Bible DOES teach is that Jesus Christ died for all. And, no, there is no other descriptive, such as "all the elect" or "all the frozen chosen" or etc.
Let's do this: pick out the one verse that you believe is the most clear about Christ's death being selective for just a few, or not for everyone.
And then I'll discuss it with you. Fair enough?
I wasn't speaking about me since I do not, nor will I ever agree your perception regarding the principals of salvation.
Instead, I was discussing your POV relative to those who are unable to hear and/or believe. My point was that for someone who believes as you do, the knowledge of the exceptions and cut-outs to that belief, if correct, could be critical information. I personally believe that God Himself has chosen whom He will save and that alone is the only factor that matters.
And by the way, we all need to know as much about the Gospel as we can - nothing about it should be considered unneeded of off-limits. How can a Christian correctly share what he does not know?
Instead, I was discussing your POV relative to those who are unable to hear and/or believe. My point was that for someone who believes as you do, the knowledge of the exceptions and cut-outs to that belief, if correct, could be critical information. I personally believe that God Himself has chosen whom He will save and that alone is the only factor that matters.
And by the way, we all need to know as much about the Gospel as we can - nothing about it should be considered unneeded of off-limits. How can a Christian correctly share what he does not know?
Do you realize that that is a nonsensical and unbiblical Calvinistic belief? If God chooses some for salvation and others for damnation, then why does He offer salvation to all freely? Even John Calvin himself had to admit that God offers salvation to all mankind freely (in his commentaries not in his Institutes which itself is shocking).