Trinitarian analogy
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This sounds like Oneness theology. If you wish to be crystal clear then "There is one God, eternally existent as three divine persons -- the Father, the Word (the Son), and the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost)".
What Oneness people should understand is this (supported by Scripture):
THE FATHER IS NEITHER THE SON NOR THE HOLY SPIRIT
THE SON IS NEITHER THE FATHER NOR THE HOLY SPIRIT
THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NEITHER THE FATHER NOR THE SON
This is the Mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ (Col 2:2). We simply cannot explain this with our human logic, but we all can certainly believe it because it is true. Those who deny the Holy Trinity and the Deity of Christ (that He is God) belong to the cults.
What Oneness people should understand is this (supported by Scripture):
THE FATHER IS NEITHER THE SON NOR THE HOLY SPIRIT
THE SON IS NEITHER THE FATHER NOR THE HOLY SPIRIT
THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NEITHER THE FATHER NOR THE SON
This is the Mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ (Col 2:2). We simply cannot explain this with our human logic, but we all can certainly believe it because it is true. Those who deny the Holy Trinity and the Deity of Christ (that He is God) belong to the cults.
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You talk about some oneness cult, but your crystal clear definition is not crystal clear in the Bible.
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Very simple. I go by simple statements in the Bible not some manmade definitions of who is and who isn't in a cult. The christians were called a cult of the nazarenes too.
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Very simple. I go by simple statements in the Bible not some manmade definitions of who is and who isn't in a cult. The christians were called a cult of the nazarenes too.
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I would say the Trinity is akin to a circle cut from a piece of paper.
There is a circumference, but also a surface area. They are two distinct concepts.
You can plausibly say that a circle is its circumference - the moment you have the circumference, the square area follows by necessity. And once you know the circumference, you will - albeit indirectly - know the surface area. Similarly, it might be said in a very plain manner that the surface area you've cut out is the circle.
These are often described as "parts of a circle" but that is ultimately an erroneous description, because although they are distinct they are completely indivisible - you can't have a circumference without a surface area. They cannot be picked apart like a shell, yolk, and white. Nor are they just different manifestations of the same thing (water/ice/steam). Nor are they actually identical with one another (like a "man" who is also "father" and "son" - there is no real distinction between them)
From my understanding, the Trinity is often summarized as:
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Father is not the Son.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
The Son is not the Father.
The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
The Holy Spirit is not the Son.
Similarly:
The circumference is the circle.
The surface area is the circle.
The circumference is not the surface area.
The surface area is not the circumference.
They are distinct and indivisible. The circumference begets the surface area, and that relationship is fundamentally timeless/instantaneous. Once you know one of them, you know both of them. You could hypothetically make it three by including something like the radius but whatever.
if anyone thinks this analogy represents a common heresy let me know.
There is a circumference, but also a surface area. They are two distinct concepts.
You can plausibly say that a circle is its circumference - the moment you have the circumference, the square area follows by necessity. And once you know the circumference, you will - albeit indirectly - know the surface area. Similarly, it might be said in a very plain manner that the surface area you've cut out is the circle.
These are often described as "parts of a circle" but that is ultimately an erroneous description, because although they are distinct they are completely indivisible - you can't have a circumference without a surface area. They cannot be picked apart like a shell, yolk, and white. Nor are they just different manifestations of the same thing (water/ice/steam). Nor are they actually identical with one another (like a "man" who is also "father" and "son" - there is no real distinction between them)
From my understanding, the Trinity is often summarized as:
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Father is not the Son.
The Father is not the Holy Spirit.
The Son is not the Father.
The Son is not the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
The Holy Spirit is not the Son.
Similarly:
The circumference is the circle.
The surface area is the circle.
The circumference is not the surface area.
The surface area is not the circumference.
They are distinct and indivisible. The circumference begets the surface area, and that relationship is fundamentally timeless/instantaneous. Once you know one of them, you know both of them. You could hypothetically make it three by including something like the radius but whatever.
if anyone thinks this analogy represents a common heresy let me know.
Well try these simple statements and get your theology straightened out:
THE WORD WAS GOD
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Tim 3:16 KJV)
GOD THE FATHER CALLS THE SON "GOD"
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Heb 1:8,9)
JESUS IS GOD OUR SAVIOR
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Tit 2:13,14)
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (Tit 3:4-6)
THE WORD WAS GOD
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (1 Tim 3:16 KJV)
GOD THE FATHER CALLS THE SON "GOD"
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (Heb 1:8,9)
JESUS IS GOD OUR SAVIOR
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Tit 2:13,14)
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (Tit 3:4-6)
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The Trinity is not just all spirit.
The Father is not a bodiless spirit. He has been seen and described many times in scripture.
Eh, that's pushing the bounds of what things can be spiritual or not.
When scripture says God is spirit, it's speaking of God Holy Spirit not Father or Son.
The essence of the Godhead is not just spirit.
The Father is not a bodiless spirit. He has been seen and described many times in scripture.
Eh, that's pushing the bounds of what things can be spiritual or not.
When scripture says God is spirit, it's speaking of God Holy Spirit not Father or Son.
The essence of the Godhead is not just spirit.
This is an obfuscation of Bible truth, since the Word in NOT Spirit.
The Word was made flesh and dwelt among is. The Lord Jesus Christ -- the Word of God -- is seated in Heaven in His glorious resurrected body (which still has the wounds from His crucifixion). And He will come to earth in that same body and stand on the Mount of Olives.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:11-13)
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zech 14:3,4)
The Word was made flesh and dwelt among is. The Lord Jesus Christ -- the Word of God -- is seated in Heaven in His glorious resurrected body (which still has the wounds from His crucifixion). And He will come to earth in that same body and stand on the Mount of Olives.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:11-13)
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (Zech 14:3,4)
Hello @Buckle, here's a humorous look at what the Trinity is, and particularly, what it is not (and why analogies that attempt to explain the Trinity to us always fall short, to one degree or another). BTW, there is a short, additional blurb after the credits that is also pretty funny, if you know the history of St. Patrick.
Enjoy
~Deut
Enjoy
~Deut
He didn't say the Father is a spirit. He spoke of the Father in verse 23, then spoke of the other Trinity member, the Holy Spirit in verse 24. Both should be worshiped in spirit and in truth. In these verses we the Trinity: God the Son spoke about God the Father then spoke of God the Holy Spirit.
The Trinity highlighted:
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Joh 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
I like what you pointed out and think it is rather interesting with the Woman asking about the Messiah and Yeshua claiming that was Him.
Since the Ancient Hebrews never believed in the trinity, and the Tanakh Version is not like the English Version that tries to point it out, most think those Examples of Yahweh are the Coming Messiah, that they believe is still coming. But, I do like your connection to John 4:23-26.
Since the Ancient Hebrews never believed in the trinity, and the Tanakh Version is not like the English Version that tries to point it out, most think those Examples of Yahweh are the Coming Messiah, that they believe is still coming. But, I do like your connection to John 4:23-26.
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The Son is the incarnation of the Father.
For there is one true God, even the Father (John 17:3, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 15:6, James 3:9 (kjv)); who was manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16 (kjv), John 14:7-11, Isaiah 9:6).
There is one Spirit (John 4:23-24) who inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh.
The Son is the same Spirit come in human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).
For the Son, being God, is a Spirit (John 4:24).
The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24).
And, there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).
Therefore the Father and the Son are the same Spirit / essence.
The distinction between them being in that the Father is a Spirit without flesh and the Son is the same Spirit come in human flesh.
Therefore, it can be said, that the Son, in His Spirit, is the Father (John 14:7-11, Isaiah 9:6)...
While the Father is not the Son since the Son by definition is come in the flesh and the Father is a Spirit without flesh.
However, I hope that you can see that Jesus, in His Deity, is the Father. As that is who the Spirit of Jesus is.
For there is one true God, even the Father (John 17:3, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 15:6, James 3:9 (kjv)); who was manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16 (kjv), John 14:7-11, Isaiah 9:6).
There is one Spirit (John 4:23-24) who inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15) without flesh.
The Son is the same Spirit come in human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).
For the Son, being God, is a Spirit (John 4:24).
The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24).
And, there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).
Therefore the Father and the Son are the same Spirit / essence.
The distinction between them being in that the Father is a Spirit without flesh and the Son is the same Spirit come in human flesh.
Therefore, it can be said, that the Son, in His Spirit, is the Father (John 14:7-11, Isaiah 9:6)...
While the Father is not the Son since the Son by definition is come in the flesh and the Father is a Spirit without flesh.
However, I hope that you can see that Jesus, in His Deity, is the Father. As that is who the Spirit of Jesus is.
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There is clearly a connection between John 4:23 and John 4:24. The Father is God; so when, in John 4:24, Jesus says, God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth, He is clearly referring to what He just said, that the Father is seeking such to worship Him. It is clearly saying that the Father is a Spirit.
But I can see how someone who is blinded to the truth might not be able to see this (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).
But I can see how someone who is blinded to the truth might not be able to see this (2 Corinthians 4:3-4).
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Not at all. The Son -- the only begotten Son -- is the incarnation of the ETERNAL WORD, who was WITH the Father. Do not confuse people with conjectures.
THE ETERNAL WORD WAS GOD
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men...
THE WORD WAS INCARNATED (MADE FLESH) AS JESUS CHRIST
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth... 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
The Son is NOT the Father, neither is the Son the Holy Spirit. Do not sow seeds of spiritual confusion. One has to wonder from where all these Gnostic ideas seem to be coming.
THE ETERNAL WORD WAS GOD
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men...
THE WORD WAS INCARNATED (MADE FLESH) AS JESUS CHRIST
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth... 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
The Son is NOT the Father, neither is the Son the Holy Spirit. Do not sow seeds of spiritual confusion. One has to wonder from where all these Gnostic ideas seem to be coming.
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