Trinitarian analogy

[Aerials1978]

Wrong.



Yes of course but not a human man. He is called Father. Neither of them are spirits. How does a spirit have a hand and sit on a throne and have a body?

That’s a figurative type of writing. God conveyed to humans that he is spirit and does not have physical attributes.

God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
John 4:24

 

[justbyfaith]

Isa 45:21, Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Hos 13:4, Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

 

[ewq1938]

That’s a figurative type of writing. God conveyed to humans that he is spirit and does not have physical attributes.

Except in every passage where the Father is described, he has physical attributes.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hair or clothes, but the Father does.

Clarke:

The Ancient of days - God Almighty; and this is the only place in the sacred writings where God the Father is represented in a human form.

Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hands, but the Father does.


See, there is this view, as seen in the above scriptures and then there is another view that holds the Father is nothing more than "a bodiless spirit". This view would then suggest when we stand before God in heaven, there's only going to be one person there who is God. In my opinion this view of God is inaccurate and contradicts a great deal of scriptures.

I fully believe Jesus will be there as well as his Father and we will see the both of them just as we see in the above scriptures.


Gen 3:8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


Adam and Eve could HEAR the sound of God walking! Does a bodiless spirit walk? Does a bodiless spirit make a sound when "walking"?


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" nor does a spirit make walking sounds while walking.


Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't arms and hands and a face and certainly couldn't physically wrestle a human being, but the Father does and did.

Gill:

though he had wrestled with one so vastly superior to himself, who could have easily crushed this worm Jacob to pieces, as he is sometimes called; and though he had had such a sight of God as face to faces referring, as is thought, to a notion that obtained early, even among good men, that upon sight of God a man instantly died; though we have no example of that kind: but perhaps he observed this for his encouragement; that whereas he had met with God himself, and wrestled with him in the form of a man, and yet was preserved, he doubted not that, when he should meet with his brother and debate matters with him, he should be safe and unhurt.

(note: M.H. here believes this is Jesus Christ not the Father but the basic concept is still the same, God in a physical form. I believe it was the Father.)

Mathew Henry:

This was doubtless the Lord Jesus Christ, who, among the patriarchs, assumed that human form, which in the fullness of time he really took of a woman, and in which he dwelt thirty-three years among men. He is here styled an angel, because he was µe?a??? ß????? ???e???, (see the Septuagint, Isa_9:7), the Messenger of the great counsel or design to redeem fallen man from death, and bring him to eternal glory; see Gen_16:7.
But it may be asked, Had he here a real human body, or only its form? The latter, doubtless.

Barnes:

There are, then, three acts in this dramatic scene: first, Jacob wrestling with the Omnipresent in the form of a man, in which he is signally defeated; second, Jacob importunately supplicating Yahweh, in which he prevails as a prince of God; third, Jacob receiving the blessing of a new name, a new development of spiritual life, and a new capacity for bodily action.
Gen_32:31-32
Peniel - the face of God. The reason of this name is assigned in the sentence, “I have seen God face to face.” He is at first called a man. Hosea terms him the angel (Hos_12:4-5 (3, 4). And here Jacob names him God. Hence, some men, deeply penetrated with the ineffable grandeur of the divine nature, are disposed to resolve the first act at least into an impression on the imagination. We do not pretend to define with undue nicety the mode of this wrestling. And we are far from saying that every sentence of Scripture is to be understood in a literal sense. But until some cogent reason be assigned, we do not feel at liberty to depart from the literal sense in this instance. The whole theory of a revelation from God to man is founded upon the principle that God can adapt himself to the apprehension of the being whom he has made in his own image. This principle we accept, and we dare not limit its application “further than the demonstrative laws of reason and conscience demand.” If God walk in the garden with Adam, expostulate with Cain, give a specification of the ark to Noah, partake of the hospitality of Abraham, take Lot by the hand to deliver him from Sodom, we cannot affirm that he may not, for a worthy end, enter into a bodily conflict with Jacob.

 

[ewq1938]

Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit and he was able to see what normally is not visible to us. He saw Jesus standing next to the Father. He saw two individuals, the same two we can see in many other scriptures. It is incorrect to erase the Father from all these scriptures and replace him with Jesus alone as a real visible "person".

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" yet Stephen actually saw his body, recognizing the Father visually as well as the Son.


1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Many have seen God, the LORD, literally sitting on a literal throne. That is simply because God has a literal body and form and sits upon a literal throne.


2Pet 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The Father not only has a real body just as Christ does, but he is also fully capable of speaking audibly even though Christ is the Word of God. That doesn't mean the Father cannot speak for himself.



Exo_31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Deu_9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have fingers, but the Father does.


Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


Here we see that he does have a face, has a hand, and has "back parts" of a body. Moses was not allowed to see his face, but he saw his hand and saw his "back parts".


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have a face, and a hand, and "back parts", but the Father does.


Exo 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have a visible body with feet, but the Father does.

Gill:

and there was under his feet; which shows that there was a visible form

Clarke:

The seventy elders, who were representatives of the whole congregation, were chosen to witness the manifestation of God

Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Joh 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
Joh 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.


Jesus said to the Jews that they have never heard the voice of the Father. Does that mean the Father has no voice? No. The Jews simply had never heard the Father's voice.

Jesus said to the Jews that they have never seen the shape of the Father. Does that mean the Father has no shape? No. The Jews simply had never seen the Father's shape.

This proves that the Father does in fact have a voice and a shape which is testified in many scriptures as truth.


Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Here God is in physical form and literally has a book in his right hand, which is attached to his right arm. Here we see the literal right arm as well as the figurative right arm, Jesus.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hands or arms, but the Father does.


Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

In the past Job only heard the words of God but now he is graced with being able to see God!


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" which means they have no body that can be seen, but the Father does.

 

[Aerials1978]

Except in every passage where the Father is described, he has physical attributes.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hair or clothes, but the Father does.

Clarke:




Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hands, but the Father does.


See, there is this view, as seen in the above scriptures and then there is another view that holds the Father is nothing more than "a bodiless spirit". This view would then suggest when we stand before God in heaven, there's only going to be one person there who is God. In my opinion this view of God is inaccurate and contradicts a great deal of scriptures.

I fully believe Jesus will be there as well as his Father and we will see the both of them just as we see in the above scriptures.


Gen 3:8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


Adam and Eve could HEAR the sound of God walking! Does a bodiless spirit walk? Does a bodiless spirit make a sound when "walking"?


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" nor does a spirit make walking sounds while walking.


Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't arms and hands and a face and certainly couldn't physically wrestle a human being, but the Father does and did.

Gill:




(note: M.H. here believes this is Jesus Christ not the Father but the basic concept is still the same, God in a physical form. I believe it was the Father.)

Mathew Henry:



Barnes:

So was Jesus misquoted when He said this? BTW, I don’t know who Mathew Henry is, but I will look him up?

 

[justbyfaith]

Except in every passage where the Father is described, he has physical attributes.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hair or clothes, but the Father does.

Clarke:




Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hands, but the Father does.


See, there is this view, as seen in the above scriptures and then there is another view that holds the Father is nothing more than "a bodiless spirit". This view would then suggest when we stand before God in heaven, there's only going to be one person there who is God. In my opinion this view of God is inaccurate and contradicts a great deal of scriptures.

I fully believe Jesus will be there as well as his Father and we will see the both of them just as we see in the above scriptures.


Gen 3:8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


Adam and Eve could HEAR the sound of God walking! Does a bodiless spirit walk? Does a bodiless spirit make a sound when "walking"?


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" nor does a spirit make walking sounds while walking.


Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't arms and hands and a face and certainly couldn't physically wrestle a human being, but the Father does and did.

Gill:




(note: M.H. here believes this is Jesus Christ not the Father but the basic concept is still the same, God in a physical form. I believe it was the Father.)

Mathew Henry:



Barnes:

Anthropomorphisms.

 

[ewq1938]

So was Jesus misquoted when He said this?

What do you refer to?

BTW, I don’t know who Mathew Henry is, but I will look him up?

He is one of most famous Christian scholars.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Father is indeed a Man in that He descended into time from eternity; and took on an added nature of human flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

Anthropomorphisms.

Nope. All are real and literal descriptions.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Anthropomorphisms.

This term was coined by theological liberals. But your theology is Gnostic anyhow.

 

[justbyfaith]

Nope. All are real and literal descriptions.

Nope.

This term was coined by theological liberals. But your theology is Gnostic anyhow.

No; my theology is biblical...nothing gnostic inherent in it at all.

For I freely confess to you that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

Because the name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ of Nazareth (Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38).

 

[justbyfaith]

This term was coined by theological liberals. But your theology is Gnostic anyhow.

Also, may the Lord abundantly bless you and receive you as a son.

 

[Aerials1978]

What do you refer to?



He is one of most famous Christian scholars.

Jesus said God is spirit. That would encompass the whole Trinity(Of course not during the incarceration). Like another poster and I alluded to, this is anthropomorphism or figurative language.

As for Matthew Henry, I do believe I have heard of him, but I haven’t down much research.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus said God is spirit. That would encompass the whole Trinity(Of course not during the incarceration).

What "incarceration"?

Do you mean "incarnation"?

Of course the Bible teaches that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

 

[Aerials1978]

Of course the Bible teaches that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).[/QUOTE

What "incarceration"?

Do you mean "incarnation"?

Of course the Bible teaches that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4).

Yes, that was a typo.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus said God is spirit. That would encompass the whole Trinity

Jesus isn't a spirit, nor is his Father. The spirit part of the Trinity is God the Holy Spirit.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus isn't a spirit, nor is his Father. The spirit part of the Trinity is God the Holy Spirit.

Who is the Lord in the Trinity?

For there is one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5);

And the Father is that Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).

Yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

And, Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

My conclusion: Jesus and the Father are the same Lord.

Can you say that Jesus is the one Lord in light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18?

If you cannot, then you do not have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv))...

And therefore are not saved (Romans 8:9).

Waiting for your answer...

I would point out that the Holy Ghost is also the one Lord of holy scripture (Ephesians 4:4, 2 Corinthians 3:17)

 

[justbyfaith]

There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:6), the Son (Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:39, 2 Timothy 1:14).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

There is one God (Ephesians 4:6); the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 15:6, James 3:9 (kjv)), the Son (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58, Exodus 3:14; John 8:59, John 10:31-33; John 8:24), and the Holy Ghost (Acts 5:3-4, Romans 8:27-27).

There are not nine members in the Trinity;

But Ephesians 4:4-6 and 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 ought to be read in light of the above information.

It is written with this in mind:

Tit 2:1, But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

 

[Angela53510]

The Father is indeed a Man in that He descended into time from eternity; and took on an added nature of human flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ.

"God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" ESV Numbers 23:19

 

[Aerials1978]

Jesus isn't a spirit, nor is his Father. The spirit part of the Trinity is God the Holy Spirit.

Are you Mormon?