Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[kleronomos]

PHONEMAN 777




THIS IS FROM POST #81 WHICH WAS POSTED BY POST HUMAN

oh


so when God creates a different body, and puts a spirit which has no personal identifying aspect into that body,
by your logic God would be creating an entirely different soul


so you are saying there is no resurrection, God makes new creatures and artificially inserts fake lying memories into them, deceiving them into believing they have personhood?


you cease to exist and sometime later God creates a new being, and tricks that illusory person into thinking they are you.
that's your hope? that's what you teach people?




THIS IS YOUR POST #101


kleronomos said:
so you are saying there is no resurrection, God makes new creatures and artificially inserts fake lying memories into them, deceiving them into believing they have personhood?
I'll have an answer waiting for you when you come up in your resurrection.
kleronomos said:
you cease to exist and sometime later God creates a new being, and tricks that illusory person into thinking they are you. that's your hope? that's what you teach people?
What are you talking about? In the resurrection, people will know who they are, what's happened to them, and the fate that awaits them. Where do ya get the idea God uses "trickery"?


I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING


BUT YOU ARE PUTTING MY NAME TO SOMEONE ELSES POSTS AND


YOU NEED TO FIX IT AND


MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.


NEITHER OF THOSE THINGS WERE SAID BY ME



I WILL CHALK THIS UP TO AN ACCIDENT PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU DON'T DO IT AGAIN.

 

[Phoneman-777]

suppose i kill your dog, then i grow a clone of your dog and teach that dog to think it is the original dog
i give you that lab grown dog.

are you happy with your replacement dog?
does your dog have eternal life, if i keep annihilating your dog, but making new dogs in the laboratory and giving them the same name?

The Bible doesn't talk about "clones" being resurrected - but the actual former person.

 

[Phoneman-777]

did Christ cease to exist when He died?

Christ had TWO natures, so when He prayed, "Lord, not My will, but Thine", He was speaking as a man, but when He declared, "Before Abraham was, I AM" He was speaking as Almighty God.

Therefore, on the Cross, His human nature ceased to be, but His divine nature was as much alive as all eternity past.

 

[Phoneman-777]

PHONEMAN 777




THIS IS FROM POST #81 WHICH WAS POSTED BY POST HUMAN

oh


so when God creates a different body, and puts a spirit which has no personal identifying aspect into that body,
by your logic God would be creating an entirely different soul


so you are saying there is no resurrection, God makes new creatures and artificially inserts fake lying memories into them, deceiving them into believing they have personhood?


you cease to exist and sometime later God creates a new being, and tricks that illusory person into thinking they are you.
that's your hope? that's what you teach people?




THIS IS YOUR POST #101


kleronomos said:
so you are saying there is no resurrection, God makes new creatures and artificially inserts fake lying memories into them, deceiving them into believing they have personhood?
I'll have an answer waiting for you when you come up in your resurrection.
kleronomos said:
you cease to exist and sometime later God creates a new being, and tricks that illusory person into thinking they are you. that's your hope? that's what you teach people?
What are you talking about? In the resurrection, people will know who they are, what's happened to them, and the fate that awaits them. Where do ya get the idea God uses "trickery"?


I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING


BUT YOU ARE PUTTING MY NAME TO SOMEONE ELSES POSTS AND


YOU NEED TO FIX IT AND


MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN.


NEITHER OF THOSE THINGS WERE SAID BY ME



I WILL CHALK THIS UP TO AN ACCIDENT PLEASE MAKE SURE YOU DON'T DO IT AGAIN.

Not sure why that happened. Musta been a glitch in the matrix

 

[Phoneman-777]

"Is Sodom now still burning with "eternal fire"

Ridiculous question. the city is destroyed as God said it would be in fact the ruins are there today by the Dead Sea.

OK, so you admit that "eternal fire" doesn't necessarily mean "burning forever", right? Because Sodom "suffered the vengeance of "eternal fire" but is no longer burning underwater.

 

[posthuman]

The Bible doesn't talk about "clones" being resurrected - but the actual former person.

then they do not cease to exist

 

[Phoneman-777]

then they do not cease to exist

Yes, they cease to exist and then come back into existence.

Death is the CESSATION of life, not a continuation thereof.

 

[CS1]

OK, so you admit that "eternal fire" doesn't necessarily mean "burning forever", right? Because Sodom "suffered the vengeance of "eternal fire" but is no longer burning underwater.

in context of the nature, you don't have to be a brain surgeon to know that. You should know the word of God speaks of natural and supernatural things guy. Come on really? Hell is the supernatural place to hold a devil who is not flesh and blood as you and I YET hell is a place you do not want to go to with an eternal soul and spirit.

 

[posthuman]

Yes, they cease to exist and then come back into existence.

that's completely illogical.

if they don't exist, there is no such thing as 'them' to resurrect.
if they are resurrected, they exist, and never ceased to exist.

 

[posthuman]

Christ had TWO natures, so when He prayed, "Lord, not My will, but Thine", He was speaking as a man, but when He declared, "Before Abraham was, I AM" He was speaking as Almighty God.

Therefore, on the Cross, His human nature ceased to be, but His divine nature was as much alive as all eternity past.

but you say that a soul ceases to exist when the spirit of a man is separated from the body of a man - and by doing so, arguing that the soul doesn't truly have any independent existence at all, but is a mere abstract to describe the union of the two.

so if Christ is the hypostatic union of two natures, and one nature is removed, then by your argument Christ Himself ceases to exist; He is no longer Christ, but only some broken pieces of what once-was-Christ.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
FAQ: The human body is organic. So then, how can it survive the heat as
perpetual nourishment for those worms depicted in Isa 66:22-24?

A: The laws of nature are not absolute. They were created in the first
chapter of Genesis to control the behavior of created matter, and as such
are easily manipulated by the one who designed them.

For example: fire totally incinerated the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah but
left unscathed a desert shrub that Moses encountered in the Sinai outback
while tending his father-in-law's sheep. (Ex 3:1-3)

Compare Dan 3:8-27 where a blistering hot fire didn't even so much as
singe the clothing of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego while slaying the
guards that threw them in the furnace.

FAQ: Won't the worms eventually exhaust their food supply?

A: There are incidents in the Bible where small amounts of food stuffs were
miraculously multiplied. One example is 1Kgs 17:8-16 where a tiny bit of
flour and oil nourished Elijah and a widow woman, and her son, for a good
many days during a time of prolonged drought.

Another incident is at 2Kgs 4:1-7 where a certain widow's husband died and
left her deeply in debt. God multiplied her last pot of oil sufficiently to sell
enough to pay off her debts, thereby saving her two sons from slavery.

No; I'm pretty sure those worms won't need to worry about running out of
human remains with which to sustain themselves.

FAQ: That rich man in Luke 16:19-31 . . are worms gnawing on him?

A: For now his body is buried. It won't be till it's resurrected for him to face
the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 when he will be
subjected to the worms.

The hell where he's being held for now is a sort of minimum security prison.
The ultimate hell is a maximum security prison; and its accommodations are
very unsavory; to say the least.

FAQ: Do you honestly approve these two hells about which you speak?

A: I honestly don't approve. I would much prefer that folks be annihilated than
kept in a perpetual state of conscious suffering. For the life of me; I just don't
know how God justifies doing that to people. I can understand social
monsters like Kim Jong-Un and Xi Jinping, but i would really like to think the
God of Christianity is better than them.
_

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Eternal damnation means judgement. An eternal damnation is the second death, like the Bible says, because death is eternal.

To be fair, it doesn't say that the ones who sleep in the dust and wake up will be the ones feeling eternal abhorrence. Someone will be feeling abhorrence, but it won't be those who awake to the resurrection of damnation.

The ones who are feeling abhorrence are the righteous who will see the damnation of the wicked. This occurs after the GWTJ in the New Heavens and New Earth.

Consider Isaiah 66:22-24

22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before Me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass,
That from one new moon to another,
And from one sabbath to another,
Shall all flesh come to worship before Me,
Saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look
Upon the carcasses of the men that have rebelled against Me;
For their worm shall not die,
Neither shall their fire be quenched;
And they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Spin it however it makes you feel best, but Eternal means Forever and Ever. There is no debating Forever and Ever!

 

[Diakonos]

The reason Jesus said "Lazarus" is because He knew not long after He'd be raising the literal Lazarus from the dead, but the Jews not only insisted on rejecting what He said to them "though one rose from the dead", they actually went away to take counsel how they might destroy both Jesus and Lazarus.

If you think the characters in the story of Luke 16 correspond to real people in the near future, then tell me, who is the rich man in contrast to Lazarous?

 

[Aerials1978]

Jesus never said the conditions of hell were eternal. He was referring to the city dump in the Valley of Gehenna when He said "the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched".

No body was running around the Valley of Gehenna with a fire hose trying to quench the fire and the maggots continuously fed on the carcasses while they were rotting next to it.

QUESTION: IS THE FIRE IN THE VALLEY OF GEHENNA STILL BURNING TODAY?

Isaiah 66:24 which is the last verse of that book makes reference to the worms that do not die and fires that are not quenched. Daniel speaks of people raised to everlasting life and everlasting contempt in chapter 12. Jesus talks about eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46.

 

[tigerwillow17]

Maybe we need to look at this story in a whole different light. In order to do that, the very first step would be to ask for help from Author of the Scriptures to more clearly understand this passage as "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." (2 Timothy 3:16). After that, we can start by determining the meaning of the relevant context around the story and then use similar or referenced texts from other parts of the Bible that relate to this particular passage to help us more clearly understand the meaning of the story in the context of the entire Bible so that no part contradicts another part.

Starting at the beginning of chapter 16, we note that Jesus is telling His disciples the parable of the unjust steward. In 16:1-13, Jesus brings home the point that both God and riches (trust in your own effort) cannot be worshiped simultaneously. This parable goes so much deeper, but since this is not the focus, suffice it to say that Jesus is setting up the scene for teaching the lessons that come up later in chapter 16, including the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. At the end of the parable (verse 14) the Pharisees, who were listening to the parable, start deriding Jesus because they did not appreciate that Jesus was using a story to point out their hypocrisy. In verses 15-18, now that Jesus has their full attention, He goes on to uncover the true condition of their hearts even more. Jesus transitions from the worship of money to adultery (verse 18) to show how deep their hypocrisy runs.

At this point, the Pharisees understand quite well that since Jesus quoted the passage on adultery in Deuteronomy 24:1-4, He is not just talking about superficial issues but attitudes and beliefs that run deep and have come from a long line of misapplications of the Law (their term for the writings of Moses) and the Prophets (their term for the other then-written major parts of the Old Testament such as the Psalms, Isaiah, and Jeremiah). Since the Pharisees are the religious leaders of the time and are well versed in the Law and the Prophets, they understand that Jesus is not only talking about physical adultery, but also spiritual adultery as laid out in Jeremiah 3:6-9.

So why is our understanding of who the Pharisees were and what Jesus' attack on their hypocrisy meant to them so important in our understanding of the Rich Man and Lazarus story? First, let me give a little background about who the Pharisees were and where they came from. The Pharisees considered themselves the masters of the Law and were the considered the religious leaders of the time. They were not only considered the spiritual leaders, but also a group of leaders who needed to keep themselves separate from the "common" people in order to remain pure and focus their time and energy on enforcing all their rules on the people. In the beginning, their intention was to ensure that the history from the rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem after returning from the Babylonian captivity was not forgotten by the people, but over time their ruling authority became more and more tyrannical. As a result, they were in danger of completely blotting out the real purpose of the Law in the first place, which was to point forward to the coming Messiah. But instead of living out the good news of the coming Messiah like the leaders were repeatedly instructed to do in the Old Testament, they hid their stubborn hearts behind the enforcement a bunch of rules and rituals that had become meaningless to the people.

End of Part 1

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes, they cease to exist and then come back into existence.

Do you see the absurdity of this statement? It would be far better to admit that you have been indoctrinated into unbiblical teachings, and it is now high time to abandon such nonsense.

 

[tigerwillow17]

Part 2

Now, on to the second part of the question, how does Jesus attack on the Pharisees' character help us understand the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus? Right before Jesus starts His story, He had just accused the Pharisees of leading the people down the path of spiritual adultery by indirectly referring to Jeremiah 3:6-9. (These verses quote Deuteronomy 1:1-4 and expand on it in a deeper way.) Now Jesus uses the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus to demonstrate more explicitly to the Pharisees, and everyone else listening, just how the people are being led into spiritual adultery by their leaders. Jesus uses certain symbols in the story to represent the point that He has been trying to drive home through the whole chapter of Luke 16 so far. The Pharisees already understood by Jesus previous statements that the next words coming out of His mouth were referring directly to them. He starts the story out by adding some specific details to a well-known story by Jewish leaders that was passed down as a through oral tradition and written in the Babylonian Talmud. Jesus recites this story, but adds a few details along the way to make it more specifically applicable to his hearers, mainly the Pharisees. By clothing the rich man at the beginning of the story in purple and fine linen, Jesus is referencing the royal responsibilities of the Pharisees' leadership position to represent Himself coming as the real King. However, Jesus does not mention that they have the color blue in their robe, which is the color in the high priest's garment that represents obedience to God. By this omission Jesus is insinuating that although the Pharisees were in the royal leadership position, they were not being faithful to God in how they handled their duties. The man was not only clothed with purple linen, but was also rich from having full access to the Law and the Prophets and the oracles of God (Romans 3:1,2) as a benefit of their position. Part of the Pharisees' responsibility was to feast on these words of God and take them in internally so they could pass them down to the common people. At this point in the story, Jesus is already uncovering not only their hypocrisy, but also rebuking their unfaithfulness in safeguarding the Law and the Prophets. Now Jesus brings the beggar lying at the rich man's gate into the story as a way to reinforce His previous rebuke in the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37) on their neglect to take care of the people. Jesus names the beggar after a Gentile by the name of Lazarus who in Jewish traditional folklore embodies hospitality to even further apply this story to the typical Pharisaical view of the common people. These people, who were at their gates and within their reach and power of influence, were starving spiritually because they were not even getting the crumbs of bread (Matthew 4:4) from the richness of God's Word which the Pharisees were supposed to be sharing. Jesus makes the scene even more dramatic by covering Lazarus with sores. Not only were the people being starved of bread from the Word of God, but they were being looked down on as low-life who did not deserve the time of day from the Pharisees. Then Jesus makes Lazarus' situation even more deplorable by adding that the dogs came and licked his wounds which were created by the Pharisees' total disregard of the helplessness of his situation. Jesus uses the derogatory term dog to capture the image of Lazarus' desperate condition. (For more information on how dogs were viewed in Biblical times, see Matthew 15:26,27 and Deuteronomy 23:18. They were viewed similar to how we relate to cockroaches and rats today; dirty and disgusting.)

At this point in the story, Jesus adds a whole new ending to the traditional story to drive home even further His lesson on the importance of being hospitable (specifically being willing to share the wealth of God's word) to others, including to those who are not seen as worthy of hospitality in their eyes. After they both die, the rich man approaches Father Abraham and asks for mercy. When Father Abraham responds that his request is not possible, the rich man then pleads for Lazarus to be allowed to visit his father's house to warn his five brothers of the consequences of continuing in their current path of hypocrisy and indifference to the well-being of the common people. Jesus specifically mentions the five brothers to even more directly point His message toward the currently ruling high priest family, which at that time had five brothers serving in the position of high priest. Abraham retorted that honoring his request was not necessary because his brothers already had the warnings from Moses and the Prophets. But the rich man persists and claims that if Lazarus is raised from the dead and personally brings the message of warning to his brothers, then they would repent of their actions. But Abraham is not convinced of the rich man's claim and replies that there is no use to send Lazarus because the brothers have already refused to believe the warnings personally delivered to them by the Man whose death and resurrection was predicted in the writing of Moses and the Prophets. If they would not believe the Man written about by Moses and the Prophets, then what would be the point of sending Lazarus, a lowly beggar to try to convince them of their error?

As we can see from the ending of this story, Jesus is not at all talking about the destination or reward of the dead, but rather the belief in Jesus and the conviction to live a life that demonstrates our belief in His death and resurrection. We can do this by feasting on God's word daily and going a step further to share that good news of salvation whenever and wherever we have the opportunity.

I would go as far as to say this story more resembles an allegory than a parable. An allegory has a much deeper meaning that requires intentional searching for its interpretation. So if it is indeed an allegory, the symbols in the story cannot be taken literally. Jesus uses these symbols to bring out spiritual truths which, if He told them more directly, might have very well caused an unnecessary revolt. This is not the first time that fictitious conversations are held among the dead to prove a specific point (see Isaiah 14:9-11). The Pharisees are familiar with the writings of Isaiah and how he uses figurative language in some of his passages, so for Jesus to tell this story in an allegorical style is not surprising to them.

In addition, since 1 Corinthians 14:33 claims that "God is not the author of confusion but of peace..." we cannot allow our interpretation of this story to contradict in any way other clearly expressed passages such as Ecclesiastes 9:5, which says, "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten."

 

[JohnRH]

The popular yet erroneous teaching about Rich Man and Lazarus has succeeded to both strike fear in the hearts of Christians and drive countless others to atheism, because those who refuse to recognize this passage in Luke 16 as the parable that it is use it to advance the false idea of Eternal Torment - a doctrine of devils - because they know then can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here's the other side of the story:

Your video is a farce. The dogs in the account, were literal dogs. Lazarus wasn't one of those dogs. He was a literal man. The rich man's 5 literal brothers were still alive and savable.
... neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke 16:26 (KJV) Individual Jews have been getting saved for the last 2,000 years.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

.



• Isa 66:22-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to
another, all mankind will come and bow down before me-- speaks The Lord.
And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled
against Me: their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they
will be loathsome to all mankind.

That rather ghastly scene depicts a sort of tourist attraction similar to the La
Brea Tar Pits museum in Los Angeles where the remains of prehistoric
creatures, excavated from ancient asphalt deposits, are on display.

A worm that thrives in fire is pretty amazing, but not unreasonable. The
4" Pompeii worm lives in sea water temperatures of 176° Fahrenheit; hot
enough to kill salmonella and sanitize an egg. So I guess if God could create
a worm like the Pompeii, it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to create worms
that like it even warmer.
_

From your quoting of worms at volcanic vents, I assume that hell is a rational place in your reckoning. So how is this creature , full of DNA, immortal? After digesting the poor victim, his nerves and flesh, how is the victim reformed? How is his DNA reconstituted?

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Wow, it is like you are reading my mind.

.
A: The laws of nature are not absolute. They were created in the first
chapter of Genesis to control the behavior of created matter, and as such
are easily manipulated by the one who designed them.

Where is this concept found? The laws in any given universe is absolute or it would not be a rational universe. You are proposing theory of magic without the hard work of proof. It is the similar argument that atheists have for the problem of evil. God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, why is there evil? Then they insult God.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego had a fourth companion. Are you saying an angel will be assigned to every hell bound resident and worm so they can be sustained for ever and ever? What is the reason God would expend so much energy? There is no reason for anyone to mope around garbage, why should our Creator?

.
A: There are incidents in the Bible where small amounts of food stuffs were
miraculously multiplied. One example is 1Kgs 17:8-16 where a tiny bit of
flour and oil nourished Elijah and a widow woman, and her son, for a good
many days during a time of prolonged drought.

There is a word call "finite". It means impermanent. Not permanent. There are no infinite housing prices, that is why you have a housing bubble. The sun will eventually run out of fuel and become a red giant. The universe will suffer heat death as it is expanded to nothing. This is argument is similar to atheists arguing evolution. Evolution can explain everything, though it does not have the time (finite as as too short) or mutation rate (finite as limited). It just is because.

.
A: For now his body is buried. It won't be till it's resurrected for him to face
the great white throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 when he will be
subjected to the worms.

Consider Rev 14:9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

What is the mark and will they who have go before the Great White Throne? Or is it an automatic redirect to the furnace of spent garbage? When babylon falls all who have the mark will fall with her. The resurrections are for those unsullied.

.
A: I honestly don't approve. I would much prefer that folks be annihilated than
kept in a perpetual state of conscious suffering. For the life of me; I just don't
know how God justifies doing that to people. I can understand social
monsters like Kim Jong-Un and Xi Jinping, but i would really like to think the
God of Christianity is better than them.

This is virtue signaling. Know the mark and avoid it!