TONGUES is a precious gift from God

[Rhomphaeam]

No worries there, friend. People don't get saved without calling on God.

Concerning your personal salvation, you must have know enough about the gospel, or at least enough to believe in God and call to Him.

God doesn't save people against their will. Calvinism isn't true.

Brother I was an occult theosophist preparing a manuscript for an occult order in solitary confinement. I was shaking my fist at God when I was saved. Election is true - otherwise I am not saved at all. It's really that simple. And just so I am being clear - when my cell was suddenly filled with the power of God and I knew the Father in the Spirit I covered my face and cried out asking the Father to forgive me because I had not known that he was real. Only then having been made alive by His authority working through Christ - did I ask - "If you are God, Father, then who is Christ.? I am a Calvinist for a very practical reason not because I perversely enjoy playing with mere words with those who are determined to refuse the election of the Father in Christ giving rise to a living faith to know His sacrifice and ordination to His body. But this thread is about the gift of tongues and not about me. So lets stick to the topic shall we!

 

[SophieT]

No worries there, friend. People don't get saved without calling on God.

Concerning your personal salvation, you must have know enough about the gospel, or at least enough to believe in God and call to Him.

God doesn't save people against their will. Calvinism isn't true.

well, if you are a Calvinist as is the poster you are responding to, then you have no choice in your salvation...you are basically going to be saved whether or not you want to, so not hearing the gospel is just really not all that necessary apparently...although to be sure, he is the only Calvinist I have heard that goes that far

as I stated to him, the way someone might see that video he presented and the supposed response to a sovereign move of the Holy Spirit, depends on whether they are a Calvinist or not

he has basically twisted my words ever since and attempted to attribute things to me I have not intended ..he will consider this an attack

 

[VARob]

Brother I was an occult theosophist preparing a manuscript for an occult order in solitary confinement. I was shaking my fist at God when I was saved. Election is true - otherwise I am not saved at all. It's really that simple. And just so I am being clear - when my cell was suddenly filled with the power of God and I knew the Father in the Spirit I covered my face and cried out asking the Father to forgive me because I had not known that he was real. Only then having been made alive by His authority working through Christ - did I ask - "If you are God, Father, then who is Christ.? I am a Calvinist for a very practical reason not because I perversely enjoy playing with mere words with those who are determined to refuse the election of the Father in Christ giving rise to a living faith to know His sacrifice and ordination to His body.

It seems God did intervene in your life, but it was still your decision whether to believe or not. A similar think happened to Saul/Paul.

God does not make people believe.

But this thread is about the gift of tongues and not about me. So lets stick to the topic shall we!

Sure. God won't make people speak in tongues.

 

[VARob]

well, if you are a Calvinist as is the poster you are responding to, then you have no choice in your salvation...you are basically going to be saved whether or not you want to, so not hearing the gospel is just really not all that necessary apparently...although to be sure, he is the only Calvinist I have heard that goes that far

as I stated to him, the way someone might see that video he presented and the supposed response to a sovereign move of the Holy Spirit, depends on whether they are a Calvinist or not

he has basically twisted my words ever since and attempted to attribute things to me I have not intended ..he will consider this an attack

For the record, I am in no way a Calvinist.

 

[Absolutely]

I am wondering if that dyslexia you said you had, was figurative or literal

you might understand why I am asking I would think

I am fine.

 

[SophieT]

For the record, I am in no way a Calvinist.

well he says lets stick to the topic...but brings up Calvinism himself.

doesn't want to talk about it, but posts a video to prove Calvinism

it's all about that belief in the end imo...anyway

I have had plenty of exchanges with Calvinists in this forum and some are polite and some are dismissive of anyone who does not accept their Calvinism. so much for discussion

 

[Godsgirl83]

ANOTHER nice thread gone bad
can't ya'll keep the arguing and bickering over the topic to the one that was already started and full of arguing and bickering?
Yeah, I know.....
welcome to BDF..........SAD.

 

[CS1]

I'm going to share something that God just revealed to me about a week ago. It had been tossing around inside me and I'd just not felt settled about it until God brought the question to the forefront of my mind and then proceeded to explain it to me. Here goes:

I used to know a prophet (someone who operates regularly in the gift of prophecy and had that as part of his calling). Of course he also had speaking in tongues, and often spoke in tongues out loud and in a way that was subsequently interpreted (which has MUCH in common with prophecy) so that's why I'm bringing this up here.

He was often sent into other churches as God would send him with messages to those churches, or to his children within those churches. And sometimes he would tell us what happened.

In one instance he was sent into a church and instead of prophesying, God had him speak a message aloud in tongues. USUALLY, God would provide the interpretation either through himself or some other in the church but on this occasion no audible interpretation followed. Now some would already be saying "If God didn't provide an interpretation, he should have kept his mouth SHUT" But he was wise enough to obey what God told him to do and trust God to take care of the rest. So that's why he was obedient.

After the service, at least 3 individuals approached him, saying that as he was speaking, God was giving them the interpretation internally and telling them to gather their families and get out of that church. So there was no infraction against 1 Corinthians 14:28 which says:

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.1 Corinthians 14:28 KJV​

However... the part that I was questioning was contained in verse 2:

"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." - 1 Corinthians 14:2 KJV​

I thought "Isn't he speaking unto the 'men' (individuals) who heard the message and received the meaning?".

If you want to be accurate about it ...and I do... the answer is "No. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue is still NOT speaking to man, but unto God". In this particular case (as it also is in the case where audible interpretations are given) the unknown tongues was spoken to the Spirit (Holy Ghost, GOD) within them and GOD (the Spirit within them, the Holy Ghost, God) provided the interpretation to their understanding.

I thought that was kinda cool.


Love in Jesus,
Kelby

You know that 1cor chapter 14 does speak of this Tongues and interpreation of tongues is = to prophesy. There are those who recieved the ability from The Holy Spirit who refuae to speak out and interpet. They were afriad, But after the service came and gave it. The Holy Spirit will not force you to speak in toungues, prophesy, heal throug prayer. IF one is not going to yeild it will not happen. We can and do say no.

 

[VARob]

You know that 1cor chapter 14 does speak of this Tongues and interpreation of tongues is = to prophesy.

I don't see it that way. When a person speaks in tongues they are speaking to God (1 Cor 14:2). It follows that the interpretation would be to God. When a person prophesies he is speaking words from God. Both gifts edify the church, so in that sense they are equal.

There are those who recieved the ability from The Holy Spirit who refuae to speak out and interpet. They were afriad, But after the service came and gave it. The Holy Spirit will not force you to speak in toungues, prophesy, heal throug prayer. IF one is not going to yeild it will not happen. We can and do say no.

Agree with you there..

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Sure if you mean that I am expressing myself in my own volition and cogency. If you mean that the charismatic tags in the link you provided are not used in the way I have stated then that is a simple matter of going and observing the page that contains the entire list of the numerous posts you made from that page. That cannot be a matter of opinion - it can only be a matter of sight.

As to the point you made about knowledge, local churches and the need of those whom you say [are], unable to Discern television from local Church Body reality needs serious help in multiple ways!

The spiritual abuse and the harm that charismatic believers and increasingly pentecostal believers have evidenced in the last 40 years in local churches runs into tens of thousands of the same running after signs and wonders to carry that effect back into their local churches and then in local churches pressing it onto their brethren or in the case of the pastors who endorsed the madness of worldwide campaigns that have literally reached hundreds of millions of Christians - the fire stalkers and the prophetic seers along with the wicked and carnal men and women who are all but sorcerers in their outward manner - they have abrogated reason in favour of mystical prophetic babble -

In this thread a brother who really has done no more that express his doubts and likely cessationist position is told by a sister@#223

"but what do you do?

you BADMOUTH the Holy Spirit and tell people not to believe and you are in Germany so you spread that news from there to a different continent."

The charismatic renewal that has infiltrated pentecostal churches and brought many of them to a place of carnal weakness is set aside in favour of an opportunity to condemn a brother in Christ for doing no more than writing on a forum that is hosted in the US from his home in Germany. Myself, I would rather leave the cessationist alone and address the charismatic brethren.

You see sister I am not a cessationist even though I am a Jew by birth and a Calvinist by election - I just find that I am more concerned by dissensions in the churches than by trying to solve every argument in favour of uplifting a spectacular abuse of the flocks by charismatic believers who cannot acknowledge the harm that has been done in the churches by an apostasy of the faith.

As to opinion - well it is entirely worthless - as to bearing witness it may stand if the Holy Spirit seals it with His authority.

As to the charismatic madness that has been upon us in the last 40 years - it will be torn down because judgement begins in the household of God - and not in the world.

And once again, what you see on television is not what happens in the average 100 person local Church Body across the United States. So, how do you definitively make such claims by 10 possible examples, from Mega-Churches, and are able to apply that to thousands of Small Churches?

And who is a Calvinist by Election?

Were not All Created humans predestined to be Saved had they accepted Christ?

Were not All Created humans before Noah's Flood able to serve Noah's God when he warned them to enter into the Ark?

The fact is, everywhere we see examples of non Hebrews [Rahab the Harlot, Ruth, many others] were born and given the Chance to Believe.

No one was created for Hell itself.

This is the disparaging issue between the KJV and the Tanakh.

Proverbs 16:4 (KJV) The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
^
This reads like God made people specifically to end up in Eternal Damnation and many Calvinist preach this.

But the Tanakh, which is how it should read, shows us what that Verse literally means.

4 The Lord made everything for His praise-even the wicked man for the day of evil
^
The Evil man on Day of Judgement Will bow their knee, Will recognize the Creator Almighty God.

So, this verse shows us that every human was created to Praise God. And even though the Wicked refuse and rebel, they WILL give God Praise on the Day of Judgement.


So using Calvin's Principles for Proverbs 16:4 is as False as Kundalini to a few Examples of Mega-Churches and their spiritual Movements.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

well he says lets stick to the topic...but brings up Calvinism himself.

doesn't want to talk about it, but posts a video to prove Calvinism

it's all about that belief in the end imo...anyway

I have had plenty of exchanges with Calvinists in this forum and some are polite and some are dismissive of anyone who does not accept their Calvinism. so much for discussion

I am perfectly happy to talk about reformed doctrine and Calvinism in particular in any thread you care to start. But in this thread the issue of Calvinism is implicit in the belief to a cessation of the baptism and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Which is where that brother is at whom you slandered. So any reference to Calvinism is an inference to my being in contradiction to that precept. Calvinists are not by any means cessationist in the circles I move in - including on the Isle of Lewis. The video is of that meaning else Duncan Campbell would not have raised the point about Donald MacPhail being baptised in the Holy Spirit a fortnight after he was saved. Calvinists don't get baptised in the Holy Ghost - and Calvinist meeting don't tolerate being slain in the Spirit and trances and being bowled over like skittles. But when they do happen they just leave everyone where they are and go home to bed. That is precisely what happened in that meeting in Berneray. It is all witnessed in plain English. So by all means express what you imagibne I and doing here - but I can tell you plainly it has nothing whatever to do with upholding Calvinism.

And just to support my point and to show just how completely different I am to Calvinist sentiments when they are cessationists - in the church mission I founded which is a licensed reformed Calvinist Chapel - I placed the stations of the Cross - all 14 of them around the church walls just to remind those stern men that with God there is no knowing what He will do - so no protestation to Catholicism because God saves Roman Catholics as well as all others - despite their serious and obnoxious blasphemies when they vainly pray to plaster on the wall. The enclosed image is the meeting hall part of the station. And you can see two of the Stations of the Cross either side of the Cross. The other twelve are out of sight in the image - but all fourteen are on the walls in full visibility of anyone who looks. I don't make mistaken doctrine a basis for exclusion - but I most assuredly will resist misdirection and false claims.

There is no more a harmful spirit than the spirit that thinks it is a teacher but causes division in the body of Christ because they cannot discern the day in which they live - despite being so well aquatinted with the power of God and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. As I said, sister save yourself the effort or else speak plainly.

Enjoy.

 

[CS1]

I don't see it that way. When a person speaks in tongues they are speaking to God (1 Cor 14:2). It follows that the interpretation would be to God. When a person prophesies he is speaking words from God. Both gifts edify the church, so in that sense they are equal.


Agree with you there..

That is fine, in 1cor chapter 14:2 says

For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Nothing here says this has to be silent. as we read on

Verse 3

But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.


4. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

5. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

Paul said Unless those who speak in tongues interpret so all will receive the edification.

Therefore prophesying & tongues and interpretation are the same or with equAL EFFECT. if THOSE WHO SPEAK ARE JUDGED BY THE WORD OF GOD WHAT HAS BEEN SAID.

 

[VARob]

That is fine, in 1cor chapter 14:2 says

For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Nothing here says this has to be silent. as we read on

Verse 3

But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.


4. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

5. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

Paul said Unless those who speak in tongues interpret so all will receive the edification.

Therefore prophesying & tongues and interpretation are the same or with equAL EFFECT. if THOSE WHO SPEAK ARE JUDGED BY THE WORD OF GOD WHAT HAS BEEN SAID.

I agree that both prophecy and tongues with interpretation edify the church.

We can leave it at that.

 

[CS1]

I am perfectly happy to talk about reformed doctrine and Calvinism in particular in any thread you care to start. But in this thread the issue of Calvinism is implicit in the belief to a cessation of the baptism and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Which is where that brother is at whom you slandered. So any reference to Calvinism is an inference to my being in contradiction to that precept. Calvinists are not by any means cessationist in the circles I move in - including on the Isle of Lewis. The video is of that meaning else Duncan Campbell would not have raised the point about Donald MacPhail being baptised in the Holy Spirit a fortnight after he was saved. Calvinists don't get baptised in the Holy Ghost - and Calvinist meeting don't tolerate being slain in the Spirit and trances and being bowled over like skittles. But when they do happen they just leave everyone where they are and go home to bed. That is precisely what happened in that meeting in Berneray. It is all witnessed in plain English. So by all means express what you imagibne I and doing here - but I can tell you plainly it has nothing whatever to do with upholding Calvinism.

And just to support my point and to show just how completely different I am to Calvinist sentiments when they are cessationists - in the church mission I founded which is a licensed reformed Calvinist Chapel - I placed the stations of the Cross - all 14 of them around the church walls just to remind those stern men that with God there is no knowing what He will do - so no protestation to Catholicism because God saves Roman Catholics as well as all others - despite their serious and obnoxious blasphemies when they vainly pray to plaster on the wall. The enclosed image is the meeting hall part of the station. And you can see two of the Stations of the Cross either side of the Cross. The other twelve are out of sight in the image - but all fourteen are on the walls in full visibility of anyone who looks. I don't make mistaken doctrine a basis for exclusion - but I most assuredly will resist misdirection and false claims.

There is no more a harmful spirit than the spirit that thinks it is a teacher but causes division in the body of Christ because they cannot discern the day in which they live - despite being so well aquatinted with the power of God and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. As I said, sister save yourself the effort or else speak plainly.

Enjoy.

View attachment 234851

the problem I have with my Pentecostals and Charismatics to the point if I understand you do by making devils that are not named in the word of God. Jezebel spirit, kundni spirit, spirit of baalim, etc.. there are many books on them to make money and fleece the flock

there is Only the Holy Spirit and a lying devil spirit .

there is truth and lie
light and darkness
Up and down
SAVED AND unsaved.

 

[CS1]

I agree that both prophecy and tongues with interpretation edify the church.

We can leave it at that.

that was my initial point that you disagreed with . I am well and fine to leave it there too.

 

[VARob]

that was my initial point that you disagreed with . I am well and fine to leave it there too.

To clarify, what I disagreed with is your statement that tongues with interpretation = prophecy.

While both edify the church, they are not equal.

 

[Rhomphaeam]

And once again, what you see on television is not what happens in the average 100 person local Church Body across the United States. So, how do you definitively make such claims by 10 possible examples, from Mega-Churches, and are able to apply that to thousands of Small Churches?

Well you are assuming a great deal sister. It was yourself that posted the so called Encyclopaedia of Tongues link and then posted most of its content into this thread. I asked you about the red flag that appears in the left side bar of several of the chronological time frames and you gave me your answer so I responded. Since then you have disagreed with the entirety of what I have said.

But as to the Kundalini issue - I posted a link to the Book by Jessie Penn-Lewis and Evan Roberts that was published in 1912. I made myself very clear as to what I was meaning by a false spirit because I sated that Jesse Penn-Lewis and Evan Roberts expressed that meaning informed by Evan Roberts leading role in that Revival. I haven't expressly stated where the false doctrines come from that inform the charismatic movement or what I mean by saying that the overwhelming source of that ill effect can be traced back to the US. It can - but I didn't expressed what I am talking about. I cited only one express link to a sense of a false spirit informing the work of God and that was with regard to the Welsh Revival of 1904/05. I am not concerned with how many small churches are in that ill effect if you determine what I am speaking about rather than letting me determine what I am speaking about. But I do understand the difficulty of forums and so no harm is done. Shalom.

 

[SophieT]

I am perfectly happy to talk about reformed doctrine and Calvinism in particular in any thread you care to start. But in this thread the issue of Calvinism is implicit in the belief to a cessation of the baptism and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Which is where that brother is at whom you slandered. So any reference to Calvinism is an inference to my being in contradiction to that precept. Calvinists are not by any means cessationist in the circles I move in - including on the Isle of Lewis. The video is of that meaning else Duncan Campbell would not have raised the point about Donald MacPhail being baptised in the Holy Spirit a fortnight after he was saved. Calvinists don't get baptised in the Holy Ghost - and Calvinist meeting don't tolerate being slain in the Spirit and trances and being bowled over like skittles. But when they do happen they just leave everyone where they are and go home to bed. That is precisely what happened in that meeting in Berneray. It is all witnessed in plain English. So by all means express what you imagibne I and doing here - but I can tell you plainly it has nothing whatever to do with upholding Calvinism.

And just to support my point and to show just how completely different I am to Calvinist sentiments when they are cessationists - in the church mission I founded which is a licensed reformed Calvinist Chapel - I placed the stations of the Cross - all 14 of them around the church walls just to remind those stern men that with God there is no knowing what He will do - so no protestation to Catholicism because God saves Roman Catholics as well as all others - despite their serious and obnoxious blasphemies when they vainly pray to plaster on the wall. The enclosed image is the meeting hall part of the station. And you can see two of the Stations of the Cross either side of the Cross. The other twelve are out of sight in the image - but all fourteen are on the walls in full visibility of anyone who looks. I don't make mistaken doctrine a basis for exclusion - but I most assuredly will resist misdirection and false claims.


There is no more a harmful spirit than the spirit that thinks it is a teacher but causes division in the body of Christ because they cannot discern the day in which they live - despite being so well aquatinted with the power of God and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. As I said, sister save yourself the effort or else speak plainly.

Enjoy.

View attachment 234851

and no one said you shouldn't

There is no more a harmful spirit than the spirit that thinks it is a teacher but causes division in the body of Christ because they cannot discern the day in which they live - despite being so well aquatinted with the power of God and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. As I said, sister save yourself the effort or else speak plainly.

I have spoken plainly which you well know. and that is what irks you I believe

have fun with your discussion

I think you should stop taking things as personal. this is a discussion forum after all. I understand the technique you are using of falsely accusing and ignoring any person's explanation

you are not a friend here and you do not consider others here your friend

 

[CS1]

To clarify, what I disagreed with is your statement that tongues with interpretation = prophecy.

While both edify the church, they are not equal.

please know I am not trying to get you to agree with me for it is settled with me as I am sure it is with you. Can ask you two questions, please?

1. what is Prophesying according to 1cor chapter 12 and 14?
2. what is the difference between edification that comes from prophesying and tongues and interpretation of tongues and edification?

I thank you for your response in advance,

CS1,

 

[kaylagrl]

We've had a situation in our household this past week that has left me, well........
unable at times to pray with my own words.
Crying out "God! I want to pray about this! I NEED TO pray about this! But I don't know how
And then there's a feeling down deep, near my stomach/gut (only it feels like it's inside even deeper)..........
Now, if you've ever poured a can of soda to quickly and have seen how it rises up and bubbles over - (as I was doing before typing this) I can liken it to that.
Now, as I read through these threads about the gifts of tongues, and all the scriptures referring to Paul, my mind keeps going back to Psalm 81:10..........
I am the Lord your God, who brought you up out of Egypt. Open wide your mouth and I will fill it.

Now, I can not tell you for how long or short a period of time this went on, some times longer than others. But every time I reached that place of "I don't know what to pray" Holy Spirit took over (as I yielded to Him) and I was comforted (He is after all the Comforter).

Now, there was a time in my life when I would feel those "bubbles" start to rise, and would (in my ignorance) push them back down, and not let it come up and out ....... I always walked away feeling defeated. SO i would encourage you beloved brothers and sister, when you feel a little stirring, open your mouth and let it come forth. (and don't listen to any negative thoughts that might pop into your head while doing so!)

It truly is precious!!!

and no one said you shouldn't



I have spoken plainly which you well know. and that is what irks you I believe

have fun with your discussion

I think you should stop taking things as personal. this is a discussion forum after all. I understand the technique you are using of falsely accusing and ignoring any person's explanation

you are not a friend here and you do not consider others here your friend

Just crazy, no matter which way it starts the subject swings round again. Seems there can't be a positive discussion on this subject.