Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[Phoneman-777]

No, that's you.


Read Rev 21:1. That's when that happens. Which is after the Millennial reign.


Nope. Their bodies are sleeping, as in a euphemism.

Where do you get the idea that "bodies" sleep? Matthew 27:52 KJV says "the saints which slept" meaning the entire saint was sleeping, not just the saint's body.

Did David pray, "Lighten mine eyes, lest "my body" sleep the sleep of death"?

No, he prayed, "...lest "I" - first person, subjective, singular pronoun - "I" sleep the sleep of death."

David was a "living soul" like you and me, and when he died, his spirit went up, his body went down, and he ceased to be...until the resurrection.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well we can be clear as to one of your unique views can't we. Jesus goes to preach to the previous departed after he dies at calvary.

That's not a "unique view". So which of my views do you think are "unique"?

 

[Phoneman-777]

I can't help your serious lack of knowledge about the Bible. The terms have been used interchangebly. Do some studying.


Sure. They ARE different. But there is some overlap. Do some studying.

Now I see where your confusion lies!
You don't know the Bible plainly puts a difference between the Spirit and the Soul!
I might as well be trying to convince you the Earth is flat!

• Jesus' Spirit returned to God at His crucifixion, but His "soul was not left in hell"...which means His Spirit went up but His Soul went down (into the "hades" aka "the grave").
• Though Jesus' Spirit ascended to His Father, He told Mary 3 days later, "'I' am not yet ascended to My Father."
• Hebrews 12:4 KJV says the Word of God divides the Soul from the Spirit as surely as bone marrow can be divided from a skeletal joint.
• Paul prayed for the prosperity of our body, spirit, and soul, which are three things; the first two comprising the third as Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly tells you.
• Can FreeGrace2 return to God? No! Why? He's never been there! He can't return to God any sooner than he can return to the moon! However, the Spirit can return anytime, having come from Him.

Hopefully, you will begin to see the difference, but if not I'll continue to correct your errors, lest an unsuspecting Christian be seduced by or confirmed in the error of Immortal Soul doctrine.

 

[Faithiskey1]

That's not a "unique view". So which of my views do you think are "unique"?

Taken as one whole sequence it is certainly unique to anything I have heard before and you have no scripture to back that sequence up

 

[FreeGrace2]

You certainly don't understand the verse. God makes the body out of the ground and breathes INTO that body a soul and THEN is when the body and soul are a living being. It's not difficult.

Body + soul = living being. Gen 2:7

Body - soul = dead body. James 2:26

Can you tell me which Bible version you are reading? I want to see how Genesis 2:7 reads in that one. Thanks

Why don't you try to twist James 2:26 into what it doesn't say? Like you do to so many?

New International Version
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

English Standard Version
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Berean Study Bible
Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

New King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

New American Standard Bible
Then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person.

Is that enough for you? I can easily show you much more.

But really, don't hide behind the tired excuse of "which translation" is used. When I'm not sure, or am challenged I ALWAYS go to lexicons and interlinears for what was originally written.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Well, you only know nothing. I can't help that. Since you can't comprehend the euphemism about bodies sleeping in graves, there's nothing more to discuss. The barrier to learning is very thick here.

Y'know, you claim to have addressed "every" one of my points, but I don't seem to recall you addressing "naked' and "unclothed".

Well, "naked" and "unclothed" characterizes the dead lying in the grave without the "earthly house" or the "building...eternal in the heavens". THEY DON'T HAVE ANY KIND OF BODY, euphemistic or otherwise, understand? Your claim that the dead possess a body in order to "prove" the Rich Man story is literal is not Biblical - they are "naked" and "unclothed". You are adding to Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where do you get the idea that "bodies" sleep?

From John 11, mostly. But ALL the verses that speak of believers who have died are "sleeping", those too.

Where do you get the notion that souls sleep, since the Bible NEVER says that souls sleep. That's just your opinion.

Matthew 27:52 KJV says "the saints which slept" meaning the entire saint was sleeping, not just the saint's body.

See? Here you are, giving me your OPINION about what the verse means. I'm not interested in your opinion.

New International Version
and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
English Standard Version
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
Berean Study Bible
The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
Berean Literal Bible
And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints having fallen asleep arose.
King James Bible
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
New American Standard Bible
Also the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Christian Standard Bible
The tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
American Standard Version
and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised;

If these verses (there are many more) don't change your mind (repentance) there isn't anything more for you. You just don't want to know the truth.

These verses very clearly show that it is the dead body that is sleeping. There is NOTHING about souls sleeping.

You are just committing eisegesis.

Did David pray, "Lighten mine eyes, lest "my body" sleep the sleep of death"?

No, he prayed, "...lest "I" - first person, subjective, singular pronoun - "I" sleep the sleep of death."

David was a "living soul" like you and me, and when he died, his spirit went up, his body went down, and he ceased to be...until the resurrection.

How silly. David got it right, but you seem to refuse to get it. He realizes that "death" is the body sleeping.

Again, NONE of your verses says anything about soul sleep.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Now I see where your confusion lies!

Said the very confused person.

Jesus' Spirit returned to God at His crucifixion, but His "soul was not left in hell"...which means His Spirit went up but His Soul went down (into the "hades" aka "the grave").

Would it be too difficult to include at least a citation for quoting verses?

Though Jesus' Spirit ascended to His Father, He told Mary 3 days later, "'I' am not yet ascended to My Father."

Simple. Jesus was referring to His body. Duh.

Hebrews 12:4 KJV says the Word of God divides the Soul from the Spirit as surely as bone marrow can be divided from a skeletal joint.

Again, I said that. There is a difference in the Bible, but there is also some overlapping.

Paul prayed for the prosperity of our body, spirit, and soul, which are three things; the first two comprising the third as Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly tells you.

Yep. trichotomous. That's what believers are. Unbelievers are dichotomous.

Can FreeGrace2 return to God? No! Why? He's never been there! He can't return to God any sooner than he can return to the moon! However, the Spirit can return anytime, having come from Him.
Hopefully, you will begin to see the difference, but if not I'll continue to correct your errors, lest an unsuspecting Christian be seduced by or confirmed in the error of Immortal Soul doctrine.

Phil 1:27 - Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ: that, whether I come and see you or be absent, I may hear of your state, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one soul striving for the faith of the gospel;

This verse equates soul and spirit. To "stand fast" is to "strive".

From Easton's Bible Dictionary:
Ghost
an old Saxon word equivalent to soul or spirit. It is the translation of the Hebrew _nephesh_ and the Greek _pneuma_, both meaning "breath," "life," "spirit," the "living principle" (Job 11:20; Jer. 15:9; Matt. 27:50; John 19:30). The expression "to give up the ghost" means to die (Lam. 1:19; Gen. 25:17; 35:29; 49:33; Job 3:11)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Taken as one whole sequence it is certainly unique to anything I have heard before and you have no scripture to back that sequence up

And who does have a sequence with Scripture to back it up?

 

[Faithiskey1]

And who does have a sequence with Scripture to back it up?

Chat to people who enjoy the subject more than me. I'm sure they will come up with a more plausible sequence than yours. I really don't want to get into all of this again here. I have already made my views clear

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, you only know nothing. I can't help that. Since you can't comprehend the euphemism about bodies sleeping in graves, there's nothing more to discuss. The barrier to learning is very thick here.

Y'know, you claim to have addressed "every" one of my points, but I don't seem to recall you addressing "naked' and "unclothed".

Well, "naked" and "unclothed" characterizes the dead lying in the grave without the "earthly house" or the "building...eternal in the heavens".

Well, you are wrong again. The "earthly house" or "building" IS the physical body. It houses the soul. But, of course, you will deny that, given all the other stuff you claim.

So, what IS "naked" or "unclothed" is the soul. Without a body. Very simple.

THEY DON'T HAVE ANY KIND OF BODY, euphemistic or otherwise, understand?

Oh, here we go again, with your pompous proclamations. How do you know souls don't have "any kind of" body?

Oh, I guess you are calling the Beloved Apostle, John, a liar then. OK. So be it. John wrote Scripture. You only give opinions. I will stick with John. Oh, and what Jesus said about a beggar named Lazarus.

Your claim that the dead possess a body in order to "prove" the Rich Man story is literal is not Biblical - they are "naked" and "unclothed". You are adding to Scripture.

No. You, otoh, are terribly misunderstand a whole lot of Scripture.

You can't prove Jesus' account of the after life is a parable. You can only opine that it is. And you HAVE to do that to preserve your unbiblical claims. But reasonable people can see right through your errors.

What I DO know is that the Bible describes existence in Paradise and Torments and involves dead people. And John SAW souls of saints shouting to revenge.

So don't tell me what's true or not. You reject what the Bible plainly says.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Your opinion as NO basis in Scripture. It is the body that dies when the soul/spirit leaves. James 2:26

Opinion? Ezekiel 18:4 KJV would like to have a word with you, my deluded friend. Souls are subject to death and need to be delivered from death, but you're twisting James' words to mean the opposite.

Since you can't grasp that the "current" that makes the body alive is the soul, there is nothing more that can be done.

You can't grasp that the Body is the light bulb, the Spirit is the electric current, and the Soul is the Light produced as a consequence of the union of the two:
Bulb + Current = Light
Body + Spirit = Soul

Nope. Bodies die. James 2:26 Dead bodies sleep. You have been very deceived.

"The SOUL that sinneth, it shall DIE" and also "every living SOUL DIED in the sea."

When God gives believers NEW BIRTH (the human spirit is regenerated), that IS immortal at that point.

Wrong again...Paul says in Romans 2:7-9 KJV we must PATIENTLY CONTINUE TO SEEK FOR IMMORTALITY if we are to receive it, which would not be necessary if we obtained it at the new birth! Bro, I can do this all...day...long.

It shall never die. And it is so clear from Rev 20 that all unbelievers will exist in the LoF forever and ever. But you have rejected Scripture.

Oh, you mean "forever" which means "undefined, but not endless"? Yes, they will suffer "all the days of life" which is what all honest scholars believe "forever" means when it is applied to the affairs of men, including the wicked men in the LoF.

Sure. Immortality is also called "eternal life", which is a gift that Jesus gives to believers (John 5:24, 10:28).

Yes, but when? At the resurrection, not a moment sooner! (BTW, the gift of immortality is bound up in the right to the Tree of Life, according to Genesis and Revelation, right or wrong? It's so easy with you, bro.

I must ask; since this is such a STUPID comment, why do you make up such garbage? Maybe it just makes you feel better when you can't win an argument.

But you are either:
1. very stupid
2. a very big liar

IF IF IF you cannot prove your offensive claim here that I do such things. So, which is it? Or both?

Easy, now, easy..."be angry and sin not", brother.
My suspicions that you are Catholic is that you PREACH CATHOLIC DOCTRINE! Catholicism dragged Immortal Soul doctrine, Jesuit Futurism, eternal torment, and the other crazy errors you preach into the church. Many of the Protestant Reformers rejected what you now anxiously preach as Biblical.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You're going to have to prove your claim about what is "according to Peter", and what is this "prison house of sin"?

Context is everything: the context of "preached to the spirits in prison" is the preaching of Noah to the Antediluvians.

I'm tired of all your false accusastions or outright lies. If you can't prove these ridiculous claims, then just shut up.

So, you're saying you don't pray to Mary? I just assumed that so because of all the Catholicism you preach.

Isaiah said Jesus came to "set at liberty the captives" - do ya think that means the "incarcerated"? Read Isaiah 42:7 KJV.

 

[Phoneman-777]

From John 11, mostly. But ALL the verses that speak of believers who have died are "sleeping", those too.

Where do you get the notion that souls sleep, since the Bible NEVER says that souls sleep. That's just your opinion.


See? Here you are, giving me your OPINION about what the verse means. I'm not interested in your opinion.

New International Version
and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
English Standard Version
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
Berean Study Bible
The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
Berean Literal Bible
And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints having fallen asleep arose.
King James Bible
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
New American Standard Bible
Also the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Christian Standard Bible
The tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
American Standard Version
and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised;

If these verses (there are many more) don't change your mind (repentance) there isn't anything more for you. You just don't want to know the truth.

These verses very clearly show that it is the dead body that is sleeping. There is NOTHING about souls sleeping.

You are just committing eisegesis.


How silly. David got it right, but you seem to refuse to get it. He realizes that "death" is the body sleeping.

Again, NONE of your verses says anything about soul sleep.

Seriously, you think all that supports your idea that "bodies" are sleeping? Okey Dokey

 

[Phoneman-777]

FreeGrace2 said:
lol. You use "symbolism" to defend your theory regarding Jesus' account of life in the afterlife, John's clear vision of souls in heaven shouting for revenge, etc.

What nonsense. There is NO mention of symbolism in Rev 1.

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Nothing about symbols. Everything about what John saw and described.

That's your other problem: you're reading NT based on the Critical Text MSS which was mainly compiled by two Catholic-sympathizing "protestants" named Westcott and Hort. I suggest your goto Bible be the KJV.

It says, "...and (Jesus) sent and SIGNIFIED it by the hand of His angel unto His servant John."

To "signify" means to use "signs or symbols", just like your "SIGNATURE" on a check is a sign representing your person.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And who does have a sequence with Scripture to back it up?

Chat to people who enjoy the subject more than me.

Since you don't have any opinion on the matter, you have no right to challenge mine.

I'm sure they will come up with a more plausible sequence than yours.

You're "sure", huh. Yeah, sure.

I really don't want to get into all of this again here. I have already made my views clear

If you aren't willing to discuss, why do you respond to posts? Don't you know how these forums work?

 

[Phoneman-777]

You certainly don't understand the verse. God makes the body out of the ground and breathes INTO that body a soul and THEN is when the body and soul are a living being. It's not difficult.

Body + soul = living being. Gen 2:7

Body - soul = dead body. James 2:26

Why don't you try to twist James 2:26 into what it doesn't say? Like you do to so many?

New International Version
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

English Standard Version
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Berean Study Bible
Then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.

King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

New King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

New American Standard Bible
Then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person.

Is that enough for you? I can easily show you much more.

But really, don't hide behind the tired excuse of "which translation" is used. When I'm not sure, or am challenged I ALWAYS go to lexicons and interlinears for what was originally written.

I see you're quoting the KJV...OK, no excuse for your ignorance now.

Read the KJV and you'll see what God breathed was NOT the "SOUL", but the Spirit. How do we know?

Because just before God sent forth the Spirit into Adam's body, ADAM'S SOUL HAD NOT YET COME INTO EXISTENCE. The Soul "Adam" began to exist only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Said the very confused person.
Would it be too difficult to include at least a citation for quoting verses?

You're kidding, right? You presume to debate a topic such as this, yet you require "citations" for such elementary aspects of it??? Please, get back to your milk and abstain from meat until you're no longer a babe in Christ, OK???

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Your opinion as NO basis in Scripture. It is the body that dies when the soul/spirit leaves. James 2:26

Opinion? Ezekiel 18:4 KJV would like to have a word with you, my deluded friend. Souls are subject to death and need to be delivered from death, but you're twisting James' words to mean the opposite.

James 2:26 is clear enough. But go ahead and continue to misread Scripture.

"The SOUL that sinneth, it shall DIE" and also "every living SOUL DIED in the sea."

Obviously speaking of a person. In the Greek, 'psuche' means the person. What dies is the person's body.

Wrong again...Paul says in Romans 2:7-9 KJV we must PATIENTLY CONTINUE TO SEEK FOR IMMORTALITY if we are to receive it, which would not be necessary if we obtained it at the new birth! Bro, I can do this all...day...long.

Be wrong all day long? I don't doubt it.

But, as your skewed understanding of Rom 2:7-9, maybe, just maybe, you should read Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Kinda knocks the wind out of your sails, huh. And Rom 3:28 - For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Paul wrote Rom 2:7-9 to describe what it would take to EARN eternal life. And then he goes on to prove that eternal life cannot be earned. So there is NO ONE who can or has fulfilled Rom 2:7-9 and received eternal life as a result.

If you think so, your delusion is far worse than just your "soul sleeping" and annihilationism.

Oh, you mean "forever" which means "undefined, but not endless"? Yes, they will suffer "all the days of life" which is what all honest scholars believe "forever" means when it is applied to the affairs of men, including the wicked men in the LoF.
Yes, but when? At the resurrection, not a moment sooner! (BTW, the gift of immortality is bound up in the right to the Tree of Life, according to Genesis and Revelation, right or wrong? It's so easy with you, bro.
Easy, now, easy..."be angry and sin not", brother.
My suspicions that you are Catholic is that you PREACH CATHOLIC DOCTRINE! Catholicism dragged Immortal Soul doctrine, Jesuit Futurism, eternal torment, and the other crazy errors you preach into the church. Many of the Protestant Reformers rejected what you now anxiously preach as Biblical.

This is all just junk. I'm far away from the RCC, so your suspicions are just as erroneous as all your other opinions.

You have no proper understanding what what "sleep" means when referring to someone who has died.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, you're saying you don't pray to Mary?

Your questions are just pitiful. Like your opinions about souls that sleep.

I just assumed that so because of all the Catholicism you preach.

And, once again, wrong again. You're nearly batting 1,000. Way to go.