Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[Phoneman-777]

Not exactly. Believers "raptured" at the resurrection of the saved, will never end up in heaven. They will stay on earth and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. And then the present earth will "pass away" and there will be a new earth. And God the Father will come down from heaven and reside on the new earth.

It never fails to amaze me how way off course you are. What about the coming period of total desolation and destruction of the Earth, where there only darkness and silence with the atmosphere and elements burned up and the landscape littered with bodies lying on the ground from one end of the Earth to the other dropped in their tracks when Jesus destroyed them "with the brightness of His coming"?

Most people over look this as purposefully as you overlook the darkness and silence with which the Bible describes the state of the dead.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Eccl 12:7 puts it all together. Give gives the soul, and God receives the soul.

I didn't know the word "spirit" - as in "the spirit shall return to God Who gave it" - was spelled "S-O-U-L"

The Bible absolutely differentiates between the Soul and the Spirit, and I got the verses to prove it.

 

[Phoneman-777]

I have explained it. But you have your eyes and ears closed so as to not be influenced by facts. Rather than just make up whatever it takes to defend your theory, rational people will understand that souls have form. And they are recognizable. You've been given the facts, but if your eyes and ears remain cemented, you'll never learn a thing.

No, you've explained nothing. Paul says there's only TWO kinds of bodies, the "earthly house" which is now and the "building...eternal in the heavens" which is then. The guys in Luke 16 obviously aren't wearing their "earthly house" which means they are wearing their "building...eternal in the heavens, which is impossible seeing that everyone including you knows full well the dead don't get that one until the resurrection. Again, you've explained NOTHING.

What a lowlife kind of comment. But it probably makes you feel superior, right?

I feel the same way toward the "Immortal Soul" crowd as God does toward any peoplle who practice Spiritualism: pity and strong desire to show them their error lest they're overcome by the enemy and end up in hell.

 

[Phoneman-777]

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Well, as usual, your verses don't say what you claim. It is about the FLESH dying, not the soul. Can't you read plain English?


15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed andonly Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Whoonly hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Once again, you failed to comprehend the verses. They DON'T say that any soul perishes. Quit making up stuff.

If you believe that Adam "ceased to exist", then he won't be at the resurrection then. How ridiculous.


I sure did. You repeatedly fail to comprehend simple English and therefore FAIL to grasp verses.

The Soul cannot continue to exist a moment longer than after the Body and the Breath of Life disunion, no more than light can continue to shine from a bulb after the current is shut off.

Souls die, friend.
Only God hath immortality - not you, I, Hitler, Satan, NOBODY.
Immortality is granted only those who seek for it.
We are Souls in need of salvation from eternal death, which is not "maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence".

I've shown you all the verses proving every bit of this, but your insistence on praying to "Mary" and the "dead saints" and dead pedophile popes and whatever other brand of Spiritualism you practice blinds you to the truth.

 

[Phoneman-777]

How could you possibly get the above from this?

It's in 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 KJV. Paul speaks of the "earthly house" body we now wear, the "building...eternal in the heavens" we get at the resurrection at the end of the world, and the intermediate state of "naked" and "unclothed" which obviously means lying dead in the grave without a body awaiting the resurrection. We can't be "up in heaven" at this time because Paul says if Christians don't rise from the dead, we're "perished".

Therefore, Paul is saying he wants to be rid of his body, skip the "naked" and "unclothed" part, and go right to Jesus in his new body but he himself said that does not happen until the "last trump" when Jesus comes in the clouds. As I told FreeGrace2, Paul's personal desires have nothing to do with Divine Order.

 

[Absolutely]

Forgive me, but the first resurrection specifically refers to the following people:
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

That would mean that all those beheaded in history for Jesus are not part of the first resurrection

 

[Phoneman-777]

I'm really interested in where you get your material.

You're going to have to prove your claim about what is "according to Peter", and what is this "prison house of sin"?

1 Peter 3:​

3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: ​

3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;​

3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

​

Did God say of the Antediluvians, "My Spirit shall not always strive with man"? Oh, why yes, He did, didn't he? Stop twisting Scripture, please. Peter is telling us the same Spirit that preached to the Antediluvians through Noah is the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead.

 

[Phoneman-777]

lol. You use "symbolism" to defend your theory regarding Jesus' account of life in the afterlife, John's clear vision of souls in heaven shouting for revenge, etc.

No, it's JESUS WHO'S using symbolism in Revelation 6, because He says in chapter 1 that He sent the revelation to John "signified" aka "SIGN-I-FIED" aka "in signs and symbolism"....and one must not only be ignorant, but willfully ignorant to deny the symbolism in order to substantiate false doctrine.

 

[Phoneman-777]

EVENING & MORNING..............It's pointing ack unto what is being taken way, this is not that difficult, you rally need to stop trying to be a Prophecy wonk you have zero understanding on these things.

Just because some human MEN translated it wrongly, then 10 or so verses later translates it correctly, doesn't make it a day, no matter what you say, you continue to trust in the human translators from 1611 and I will trust in the original manuscripts written by Daniel, given unto him by Angels.



I don't keep up with all that idiocy tbh, I just know your understandings are off the deep end.

Yes, 2300 evenings and 2300 mornings = 2300 days.

Nothing happened 1100 literal days after Artaxerxes' decree - the timeline is still way off to sastify the Antiochus Epiphanes IV pipe dream. The beasts, heads, horns, waters, etc. are all symbolic, but we're supposed to believe the TIME is literal? No, friend, "each day for a year" is how we interpret symbolic time in symbolic prophecy.

 

[Phoneman-777]

That would mean that all those beheaded in history for Jesus are not part of the first resurrection

John also saw Jesus in heaven with fire shooting out his eye sockets, hair like snow, burnt feet, and a Broadsword coming out of His mouth.

Of course, Jesus doesn't look like that, but since that's the symbolic vision Jesus chose to give John of Himself, that's what John saw...it should be immediately evident to anyone that decapitated people can't cry out because (1) they got no flippin head, and (2) a "soul" is a "person" not a disembodied poltergiest that flies off at death, which is pagan occult theology which traces its roots all the way back to the Serpent in the Garden who said, "thou shalt not surely die".

 

[FreeGrace2]

What do you want to do hear?

The truth.

Debate whether the new earth can be referred to as Heaven?

No debate. The Bible clearly differentiates the two. I just like to be clear about things.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It must be because there's no such thing as a "disembodied soul" seeing that the Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life (Genesis 2:7 KJV

You certainly don't understand the verse. God makes the body out of the ground and breathes INTO that body a soul and THEN is when the body and soul are a living being. It's not difficult.

Body + soul = living being. Gen 2:7

Body - soul = dead body. James 2:26

not to mention that Revelation is the most symbolic book of the Bible

Sure, there is symbolism. So what? It could also be that from John's total lack of technology, what he saw and described was from that lack. No big deal.

Just because John's descriptions seem symbolic doesn't mean he meant that.

Paul's desire has nothing to do with Divine Order. Paul said himself is the dead don't rise, the sleeping in Christ are perished.

ONLY the believers' bodies are perished. It is ONLY the body that "sleeps", a euphemism for physical death.

It's symbolic for physical death. That's where you've gone wrong.

There's nothing in his words which demand his presence in the one location immediately follows the other, no matter how much you subjectively claim there is.

Nothing subjective here at all. I simply understand the plain words he wrote.

When you realize the things Jesus happened in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus are impossible per the rest of Scritpure

nonsense! If you only understood that "sleep" is used as a euphemism for physical death, it offers NO conflict.

your left with only two choices: He's lying or He's telling a parable. Take your pick.

No, there's one more option. You are totally deceived and spewing false doctrine. That's my pick.

Paradise is UP (please don't deny this because you've embarrassed yourself enough) but "Samuel" came up from someplace DOWN.

This is just ignorance of Scripture. Haven't you even checked with actual scholars on where Paradise is?

Again, "Samuel" could only have been a demon impersonating Samuel because "the living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything".

This is a stunning example of just how far into false doctrine you have drifted.

The Bible calls the visitor to the seance "Samuel" and you have the unmitigated GALL to challenge the Bible and come up with your own twisted and perverse opinion.

Why would God allow a demon to impersonate a prophet of God and say anything to him? All demons are liars, just like their leader, the Father of Lies.

Your view is just getting weirder and weirder.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It never fails to amaze me how way off course you are.

No, that's you.

What about the coming period of total desolation and destruction of the Earth, where there only darkness and silence with the atmosphere and elements burned up and the landscape littered with bodies lying on the ground from one end of the Earth to the other dropped in their tracks when Jesus destroyed them "with the brightness of His coming"?

Read Rev 21:1. That's when that happens. Which is after the Millennial reign.

Most people over look this as purposefully as you overlook the darkness and silence with which the Bible describes the state of the dead.

Nope. Their bodies are sleeping, as in a euphemism.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I didn't know the word "spirit" - as in "the spirit shall return to God Who gave it" - was spelled "S-O-U-L"

I can't help your serious lack of knowledge about the Bible. The terms have been used interchangebly. Do some studying.

The Bible absolutely differentiates between the Soul and the Spirit, and I got the verses to prove it.

Sure. They ARE different. But there is some overlap. Do some studying.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, you've explained nothing. Paul says there's only TWO kinds of bodies, the "earthly house" which is now and the "building...eternal in the heavens" which is then. The guys in Luke 16 obviously aren't wearing their "earthly house" which means they are wearing their "building...eternal in the heavens, which is impossible seeing that everyone including you knows full well the dead don't get that one until the resurrection. Again, you've explained NOTHING.

Well, you only know nothing. I can't help that. Since you can't comprehend the euphemism about bodies sleeping in graves, there's nothing more to discuss. The barrier to learning is very thick here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Soul cannot continue to exist a moment longer than after the Body and the Breath of Life disunion

Your opinion as NO basis in Scripture. It is the body that dies when the soul/spirit leaves. James 2:26

no more than light can continue to shine from a bulb after the current is shut off.

Since you can't grasp that the "current" that makes the body alive is the soul, there is nothing more that can be done.

Souls die, friend.

Nope. Bodies die. James 2:26 Dead bodies sleep. You have been very deceived.

Only God hath immortality - not you, I, Hitler, Satan, NOBODY.

When God gives believers NEW BIRTH (the human spirit is regenerated), that IS immortal at that point. It shall never die. And it is so clear from Rev 20 that all unbelievers will exist in the LoF forever and ever. But you have rejected Scripture.

Immortality is granted only those who seek for it.

Sure. Immortality is also called "eternal life", which is a gift that Jesus gives to believers (John 5:24, 10:28).

I've shown you all the verses proving every bit of this

And I've shown how you have simply FAILED to comprehend any of them.

but your insistence on praying to "Mary" and the "dead saints" and dead pedophile popes and whatever other brand of Spiritualism you practice blinds you to the truth.

I must ask; since this is such a STUPID comment, why do you make up such garbage? Maybe it just makes you feel better when you can't win an argument.

But you are either:
1. very stupid
2. a very big liar

IF IF IF you cannot prove your offensive claim here that I do such things.

So, which is it? Or both?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I'm really interested in where you get your material.

You're going to have to prove your claim about what is "according to Peter", and what is this "prison house of sin"?

1 Peter 3:​

3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: ​

3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;​

3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

​

Did God say of the Antediluvians, "My Spirit shall not always strive with man"? Oh, why yes, He did, didn't he?

Yes, of course He did. What is your point? It is irrelevant to the discussion of soul sleep.

Stop twisting Scripture, please.

I'm tired of all your false accusastions or outright lies. If you can't prove these ridiculous claims, then just shut up.

Peter is telling us the same Spirit that preached to the Antediluvians through Noah is the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead.

Where is your "prison house of sin" in Peter's writings?

I've never argued against the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
lol. You use "symbolism" to defend your theory regarding Jesus' account of life in the afterlife, John's clear vision of souls in heaven shouting for revenge, etc.

No, it's JESUS WHO'S using symbolism in Revelation 6, because He says in chapter 1 that He sent the revelation to John "signified" aka "SIGN-I-FIED" aka "in signs and symbolism"....and one must not only be ignorant, but willfully ignorant to deny the symbolism in order to substantiate false doctrine.

What nonsense. There is NO mention of symbolism in Rev 1.

1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Nothing about symbols. Everything about what John saw and described.

 

[Faithiskey1]

The truth.


No debate. The Bible clearly differentiates the two. I just like to be clear about things.

Well we can be clear as to one of your unique views can't we. Jesus goes to preach to the previous departed after he dies at calvary. Leaves the spirits there, rises from the grave, and at some unspecified time after he speaks to Mary returns to the spirits, takes them to Heaven, then returns to earth until his ascension in Acts ch1. That's very clear

 

[Phoneman-777]

You certainly don't understand the verse. God makes the body out of the ground and breathes INTO that body a soul and THEN is when the body and soul are a living being. It's not difficult.

Body + soul = living being. Gen 2:7

Body - soul = dead body. James 2:26


Sure, there is symbolism. So what? It could also be that from John's total lack of technology, what he saw and described was from that lack. No big deal.

Just because John's descriptions seem symbolic doesn't mean he meant that.


ONLY the believers' bodies are perished. It is ONLY the body that "sleeps", a euphemism for physical death.

It's symbolic for physical death. That's where you've gone wrong.


Nothing subjective here at all. I simply understand the plain words he wrote.


nonsense! If you only understood that "sleep" is used as a euphemism for physical death, it offers NO conflict.


No, there's one more option. You are totally deceived and spewing false doctrine. That's my pick.


This is just ignorance of Scripture. Haven't you even checked with actual scholars on where Paradise is?


This is a stunning example of just how far into false doctrine you have drifted.

The Bible calls the visitor to the seance "Samuel" and you have the unmitigated GALL to challenge the Bible and come up with your own twisted and perverse opinion.

Why would God allow a demon to impersonate a prophet of God and say anything to him? All demons are liars, just like their leader, the Father of Lies.

Your view is just getting weirder and weirder.

Can you tell me which Bible version you are reading? I want to see how Genesis 2:7 reads in that one. Thanks