Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

FreeGrace2 · Jan 6, 2022

Again, you simply fail to distinguish or discern the difference between soul and body. Bodies die. They don't "maintain existence".

When a person dies, the body doesn't "maintain existence", although that's a real poor word choice. The body can remain, because it is real. Dying doesn't eliminate the body. I've been to my share of funerals, and yep, there IS a body there. Mostly looks like the one who died, but I know the soul left the body.

btw, since James 2:26 clearly shows that a soul/spirit leaves the body, where do you suppose it goes? I know where it goes.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 6, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
Oh, I see. Your dad is a works salvationist, believing one has to keep the law to go to heaven. Interesting.

Phoneman-777 said:

I would never argue against obedience, but from how you worded it, you made clear that he viewed keeping the law as required for salvation. Go back and re-read what you wrote.

What a stupid idea. Eternal security doesn't give anyone a license. Those who know the Bible know that every person has a sin nature. And that is where personal sin comes from. I'm giving your pastor very low marks, based on your comments. You haven't been taught very well at all.

And, since you don't believe in eternal security, even though Jesus taught it very clearly, you have many erroneous ideas swirling around in your skull.

Your fantasies just keep on coming, huh.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 6, 2022

Rondonmon said:

CONTINUED........

Pre-Wrath Rapture
A variation of the mid-Tribulation Rapture is the pre-wrath Rapture concept that places the Rapture at some point in the last quarter of the Tribulation, about five and a half years into the Tribulation.

The argument for this view is that the Church is promised protection only from the wrath of God and not the wrath of Man or of Satan. It is then argued that only the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments constitute the wrath of God, and these are placed in the last quarter of the Tribulation, despite the fact that the book of Revelation clearly places the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the Tribulation. They maintain that the Seal Judgments are the wrath of Man and Satan.

This view disintegrates when you consider the fact that it is Jesus Himself who breaks the seals that launch each of the Seal Judgments recorded in Revelation 6. These judgments occur at the beginning of the Tribulation, and they are referred to as “the wrath of the Lamb” (Revelation 6:16).

All the judgments of Revelation are clearly superintended by God. That is the reason we are told in Revelation 15:1 that the Bowl Judgments at the end of the Tribulation will finish the wrath of God, not begin His wrath.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
I believe the best inference of Scripture is that the Rapture will occur at the beginning of the Tribulation. The most important reason I believe this has to do with the issue of imminence.

Over and over in Scripture we are told to watch for the appearing of the Lord. We are told “to be ready” (Matthew 24:44), “to be on the alert” (Matthew 24:42), “to be dressed in readiness” (Luke 12:35), and to “keep your lamps alight” (Luke 12:35). The clear force of these persistent warnings is that Jesus can appear at any moment.

Only the pre-Tribulation concept of the Rapture allows for the imminence of the Lord’s appearing for His Church. When the Rapture is placed at any other point in time, the imminence of the Lord’s appearing is destroyed because other prophetic events must happen first.

For example, if the Rapture is going to occur in mid-Tribulation, then why should I live looking for the Lord’s appearing at any moment? I would be looking instead for an Israeli peace treaty, the rebuilding of the Temple, and the revelation of the Antichrist. Then and only then could the Lord appear.

Focus
This raises the issue of what we are to be looking for. Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. On the contrary, we are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says we are to live “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” Likewise, Peter urges us to “fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:13). John completes the apostolic chorus by similarly urging us to “fix our hope on Him” at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3).

Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matthew 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel in the middle of the Tribulation when the Antichrist desecrates the rebuilt Temple.

Wrath
Another argument in behalf of a pre-Tribulation Rapture has to do with the promises of God to protect the Church from His wrath. As has already been demonstrated, the book of Revelation shows that the wrath of God will be poured out during the entire period of the Tribulation.

The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God’s wrath. Romans 5:9 says that “we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus].” 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting “for His Son from heaven… who will deliver us from the wrath to come.” The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 — “God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Deliverance
Some argue that God could supernaturally protect the Church during the Tribulation. Yes, He could. In fact, He promises to do just that for the 144,000 Jews who will be sealed as bond-servants at the beginning of the Tribulation (Revelation 7:1-8).

But God’s promise to the Church during the Tribulation is not one of protection but one of deliverance. Jesus said we would “escape” the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:36). Paul says Jesus is coming to “deliver” us from God’s wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Yawn-

I read both of your posts. What was your point? You described a variety of views.

The only view that counts is what the Bible says.

What the Bible doesn't say is that Jesus will take resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Period.

Now, for what the Bible does say.

Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23 clearly indicate a SINGULAR resurrection for the saved and unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 shows very plainly that ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes". That means ALL of them.

Since Rev 20:5 says that martyred saints will be in the FIRST (of two) resurrections, we KNOW that there CANNOT be a pretrib resurrection, which means no rapture either, since they go together according to 1 Thess 4.

2 Thess 2:1-3 very cleary places the rapture (gathering) when Christ comes back at the Second Advent.

Boom.

kleronomos · Jan 6, 2022

Phoneman-777 said:

Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; BUT THOU SHALT FOLLOW ME AFTERWARDS but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

Common sense - Jesus is going to heaven, they can't go UNTIL after Christ has destroyed the power of death and they first die, and then they can follow.

No sense at all - Jesus is going to heaven, but NO ONE will be following afterwards, INSTEAD everyone will be waiting until as King of kings and Lord of Lords RETURNS FROM where He went and only then will they rise. No one will COME TO THE FATHER at all. That is just a VOID and without meaning verse.

John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

Common sense - Because Christ has not died and destroyed the power of death yet but once He does and Peter dies then Christ will come meet him and bring him to the Father, which art in heaven

No sense at all - Because Christ will be destroying the power of death but it won't apply to anyone but Him until He returns to earth for the Lords Day, doesn't matter that that renders what is written void or not

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Common sense - I go to heaven, I go to prepare a place for you so that when you die, you can come be where I am, because you will not be held in bondage to death, you LIVE as I LIVE

No sense at all - I go to heaven, I go to prepare a place for you to be with me BUT you never get to go. You will be waiting for thousands of years until I return and only then along with ALL those who don't believe in me, you will be rewarded with being raised up.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Common sense - Christ has gone to prepare a place for us and on the last day in this flesh body my life doesn't pause for a nap but HE will come and receive me, so I can be where HE IS, so we can be together. And I will see Him in His GLORY. And I will be returning with Him, a part of the army to be there to receive the 'alive and remaining' when they receive their new bodies and join us.

No sense at all - He will remain in heaven WE will remain in the grave and we will never see the Mansion at all. He won't be receiving us, He wont bring us to the Father, we wont be where He is that is all just a lie

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Common sense is there is a reason for this verse

No sense at all - there was never a need for us to know the way or not as it doesn't matter we wont be going anyhow, so what's the point

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither Thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Common sense - (ESPECIALLY today) we KNOW where He went and some of us KNOW THE WAY and the when and the how

No sense at all - we don't know the way nor do we care because we wont be going there we will be staying in the grave for thousands of years

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Common sense - the way to HEAVEN, the way to 'come' to the Father, to be where Christ is presently at the right hand of the Father, is through the gift of Salvation, Eternal life, WITHOUT PAUSE, just passing THROUGH death to drop off the flesh body and rise in the spiritual one which comes to those Born from above, born again (in the simplest of terms)

No sense at all - OH WHO CARES? NO MAN BUT THE SON OF GOD WILL BE COMING TO THE FATHER just wait in the grave till He returns, sleep it off

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Common sense - Eternal life starts NOW
No sense at all - Eternal life starts now, but then pauses for a while and then is received again. God likes it complicated

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Common sense - this is an individual NOT THE ENTIRE WORLD of the saved and the unsaved all at one time

No sense at all - THIS IS THE ENTIRE WORLD

UNTIL THEN

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:5 But now I go my way to Him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

Why are you not asking this question?

John 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

John 16:13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.

John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

Why will we be able to see HIM? BECAUSE HE GOES TO THE FATHER

John 17:24

FATHER I WILL THAT THEY ALSO WHOM THOU HAST GIVEN ME BE WITH ME WHERE I AM THAT THEY MAY BEHOLD MY GLORY WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME FOR THOU LOVEDST ME BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

When Christ returns and King of Kings and Lord of Lords EVERY KNEE shall bend.

BUT you will notice it is 'THOU HAST GIVEN ME' TO BE WHERE HE IS, NOT THE WHOLE WORLD.

AGAIN, you are missing THE POWER of the gift of Salvation. You are missing what was accomplished on the CROSS. You are missing THE PEACE THAT COMES FROM BEING SAVED. THERE IS NO DEATH FOR THOSE WHO ARE SAVED. Only a PASSING THROUGH because it is appointed to all men to die, so we must.

A perfect example of what takes place when we die is found in those who are 'changed' at the very end.

HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO CHANGE BODIES?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

NOT EVERYONE DIES AND THEN IS CHANGED

Because IN THE END at the last trump THE GROUP LEFT ALIVE AND REMAING WILL BE.

HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO GO FROM AN EARTHY FLESH BODY TO AN INCORRUPTIBLE ONE?

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

WHO ARE THE DEAD? THOSE WHO DIDN'T RECEIVE THE GIFT OF SALVATION, didn't get to see CHRIST IN HIS GLORY IN HEAVEN, DIDN'T COME TO FAITH, TURNED AWAY FROM IT, WERE DECEIVED, HAD A DIFFERENT FATHER, WERE OF THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN, THOSE OF THE WORLD

GOD is the GOD OF THE LIVING NOT THE DEAD

but the Lord is the Lord of both the living and the dead

PRAISE YE THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY

Romans 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

Romans 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

SO who ARE THE DEAD IN CHRIST? Those who never got to see Him in His GLory in HEAVEN

WE must not assume that is a known answer for the mystery of iniquity doeth already work...

DavidTree · Jan 6, 2022

ewq1938 said:

“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

WHY???

To do this: John 14:1-4

Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

and because HE did this, we now have this: John ch17 and Ephesians 2:4-7

kleronomos · Jan 6, 2022

Rondonmon said:

4:16 states... Lord Himself shall descend from heaven. Christ is descending

Next,.... the dead in Christ shall rise first... only rising is from ' the dead rise from the graves'

Next... are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air...The alive and remaining join up with those who have descended with Christ and meet the Lord in the air

Next... ever be with the Lord...the EFFECT of the alive and remaining meeting the Lord in the air.

Do we agree there is nothing even remotely stated about 'going back to heaven'?

Does it seem at all strange that DESCENDING is so clearly put forth but COMPLETELY ABSENT from the narrative is any ASCENDING BACK TO HEAVEN and so what can only be put forth as conjecture is being SOLD as truth?

So WHERE does going BACK TO HEAVEN COME FROM?

Is it probable or even possible for Christ to be taking 'field trips' from heaven with its armies?

ewq1938 · Jan 6, 2022

Evmur said:

... ok but let's wait for the judgement ... I do not believe, and I don't think a careful study actually shows, that it is as black and white as that.

That they exist still in consciousness some are dead and some alive ... there is nothing to show that the beggar in the Lazarus and Dives parable was saved before he died yet he was carried into Abraham's bosom.

The unsaved aren't taken into Abraham's bosom.

ewq1938 · Jan 6, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Again you ignore the consequences of torment in Hades. Why? Because it proves you wrong? Yeah, that's why you ignore it.

Rondonmon · Jan 6, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

The usual reply I get after a beat down on doctrine. Which is why I don't waste the time. These things are evident, bit not to those who are not called unto Prophecy. Stick toy your callings and you will do fine. As I stated, you will run nd hide from the facts because you can't overcome the facts. Its quite simple tbh.

Util you answer the points made I am not interested in your ideas tbh.

God Bless.

Rondonmon · Jan 6, 2022

kleronomos said:

The whole reason we get Glorious bodies is? Our flesh and blood can not enter heaven, 1 Cor. 15:50, thus we need to change, because we are going to meet the Lord in the air brother, we are not changing into a glorious body to stay on this earth. Only those who were martyrs that refused the Mark of the Beast live and reign with Christ on this earth for 1000 years, and they are resurrected at the very end as Rev. 20:4 says, so why are we supposedly staying on this earth brother? Jesus is simply going to SPEAK VICTORY (As Dan. chapters 2 and 8 say he's going to defeat his enemies WITHOUT HANDS). There will be humans having kids during the 1000 year reign, we know this because men follow Satan again once he is released from the bottomless pit. So that tells us it can not be the way a lot of people here are thinking, it does not fit, we are translated unto Glorious bodies so that we can go to Heaven as Jesus' bride for a 7 year period, the Wedding Feast in this Symphony Orchestrated for mankind via the Armageddon battle in Rev. 19. We are shown, in Rev. 19 as being IN HEAVEN, ten returning to earth with Jesus, nothing else fits.

I have never been able to find out who the author of this but I have used it a lot in the last few years.

The Jewish Wedding Pattern

The Lord gave the Children of Israel three Spring Feasts in Leviticus 23:4-14, Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Here is how they were fulfilled:

Passover - Jesus paid the price for our sins when He died on the Cross. Jesus was the Lamb of God. (John 1:29) Jesus was the Passover Lamb.

Firstfruits - The day we recognize as Resurrection Sunday is the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was the Firstfruits of the grave. (First Corinthians 15:20)

Unleavened Bread - According to Scripture, “Passover Week” is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Leavening is figurative of sin; Jesus was “unleavened,” without sin. Jesus paid the price at the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

There is a thread of continuity that flows through the seven feasts, or appointed times, first given by the Lord. Here are the steps taken in completing the Jewish wedding and its application to the wedding of the Church to the Lord Jesus, followed by how this ties to the seven appointed feasts of Israel:

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of Firstfruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

The Spring Feasts have all been literally fulfilled.

Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22.

Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

3 – The Betrothal
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph/Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

Rondonmon · Jan 6, 2022

CONTINUED..................

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the Day of Pentecost described in Acts chapter two, to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - First Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!”
Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Jewish Wedding - The marriage was consummated in the wedding chamber. The Bride and Groom stayed in that wedding chamber for seven days.

Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

12 – The Marriage Supper
Jewish Wedding – A wedding feast was given for the Bride and Groom.
After the traditional Jewish Wedding the Bride and Groom lived together. This fits the picture of the Lord living, or tabernacling, with His people in the Kingdom Age and forever!

Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

The next appointed time is the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is a mysterious time. Of all the feasts, or appointed times, little is said of it and no scriptural reason for the feast is given. (see Leviticus 23:23-25) A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I left a little off, gets in the weeds a little to much for the ending, but in essence, Israel will fulfill the Feast of Atonement (Zechariah 13:8-9 says 3-5 million Jews repent) and then Jesus reigns in Israel/Jerusalem for 1000 years and the Feast of Tabernacles is thus fulfilled because to Tabernacle simply means to dwell with God and Jesus us God. Thus the 7 Feasts ate all fulfilled in perfect order, we are now in the Pentecost portion, or the Feast of Weeks, sometimes referred unto as the Summer Harvest (Church Age Harvest of souls).

FreeGrace2 · Jan 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
Your theory removes any and all consequences. Unbiblical.

ewq1938 said:

Dream on.

Rev 20:10 is very clear and specific about the beast and FP, both of who are human beings. God isn't in the business of judging systems. He is in the business of holding INDIVIDUALS accountable for their thoughts and actions.

So why do you ignore that verse?

FreeGrace2 · Jan 7, 2022

Rondonmon said:

lol. You only think you "beat down doctrine".

I would say 2 very long posts that don't make a point is a waste of time.

Oh, so you think you are called into prophecy. Well, that's big of you.

Please slow down on your typing. Lots of typos. And I haven't hid from anything. You only hide behind that empty charge.

Well, I guess you aren't really engaged here. I just ASKED what your point was, and you you punted with "these things are evident". Well, they aren't. Everyone reads the same words in the Bible and yet come up with very different understandings.

So, it's clear you aren't interested in "wasting your time" by explaining passages of Scripture, but expect me to respond to "your points".

Sure. Right. Get real. If you make a point, I WILL respond to it.

I think you are just lazy.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 7, 2022

For all you soul sleepers, please explain what Paul meant here.

Phil 1-
21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!
23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

Paul clearly says physical death is GAIN in v.21. But you guys claim it's only a slumber party in the cemetery.

In v.23, Paul says he would RATHER leave his body (physical body) AND BE WITH CHRIST, which is better by far.

Hm. Please explain how Paul could write that leaving his body means being with Christ, sincd that is NOT your view.

So, 2 things to explain.

1. how can physical death be a GAIN? Paul didn't mention a resurrection here, but physical death.
2. how can Paul leave his body and be WITH CHRIST?

keiw · Jan 7, 2022

Phoneman-777 said:

Before the question can be answered, we must first understand the importance of “Hebrew Chiastic Structure”. A “chiasm” is a form of Hebrew poetry where not words, but ideas, are rhymed. It's a literary device in which the ideas are arranged as “ABXBA”, “ABBA”, “ABAB”, or other variations. Chiasms are extremely important to hermeneutics because they are “guideposts” which help us to determine if our interpretations are on track or way off course because correct interpretations leave the chiasms intact, while incorrect interpretations destroy them. Many false ideas, especially eschatological ideas, stem from Bible "scholars" ignoring chiasms within the texts. Here are two examples of a chiasm from Psalms 33, the entirely of which is one chiasm after another:

Psalms 33:6 KJV
A. Word of the Lord
B. Heavens
B. Host of them
A. Breath of His mouth

Psalms 33:9 KJV
A. He spake
B. it was done
A. He commanded
B. it stood fast

That said, now let's examine 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV:
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with Him”.

Can you recognize the chiasm? Here it is:
A. Jesus died (death)
B. rose again (resurrection)
A. sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God bring forth from death (resurrection)

How do we know “bring” refers to “bring forth from death” and not “bring from heaven back to Earth”? Because this interpretation leaves the chiasm intact (“ABAB”) while the popular yet erroneous interpretation “bring from heaven back to Earth” destroys the chiasm (“ABA--”).

Another reason we know is that the emphasis of the entire passage of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 KJV focuses on the fate of the dead saints, not the Second Coming. Paul's message here is to the bereaved Thessalonian saints who are concerned about what happened to their dearly departed loved ones, and with it he assures them that they are sleeping in Jesus, they will wake at the sound of Lord's shout, voice, and trumpet and rise forth from death, and they will be caught up to Jesus in the clouds first, followed by “we that are alive and remain”.

Finally, the very last thing Paul told these bereaved Thessalonians saints is that they were to “comfort one another with these words”, but with what words? That the dead are in heaven? No! With words of the resurrection. Paul wants all Christians to know that just as surely as God brought Jesus forth from the dead, so God will bring the sleeping saints forth from death "with Him", or "in like manner".

The anointed of Jesus, is his bride = the little flock( Luke 12:32)-these are numbered at Rev 14:3-144,000--these get part in the first resurrection. Rev 20:6) the remaining ones of that little flock on earth go to heaven during the tribulation. These are promised to sit on thrones beside Jesus as kings and priests. The separating of the sheep and goats will occur, as well they will help judge even the fallen angels after the 1000 years -rev 1:6 - rev 20:4-6 - These events do occur before Jesus comes to the earth. Except for the judging at the second resurrection occurs after the thousand years -Rev 20,) after satan is loosed for a little while, and see the righteous( other sheep= great crowd which no man can number are still on the earth Rev 20:9

Phoneman-777 · Jan 7, 2022

Rondonmon said:

Why not? Paul plainly says the dead in Christ and those alive and remaining are going up to meet a Jesus that is coming down at the Second Coming.

"If they say He is in the secret chamber believe it not."

Phoneman-777 · Jan 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

John also saw a 10 horned, seven headed beast made up of parts of a lion, bear, leopard, and he had a dragon associate named "Lootin' Lenny", so no symbolism there either, right?

FreeGrace2 said:

So, Jesus is a liar? Because it was Jesus Who said He'd raise the dead "in the last day" to their resurrection bodies, yet the "glimpse" we have is of three dead guys with resurrection bodies - tongues, eyes, fingers, bosoms!

FreeGrace2 said:

And is why the "dead in Christ" are accounted as belonging to the "God of the living" because "if any man believeth in Me, though he were dead, he shall live again."

keiw · Jan 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Daniel holds the keys to unlock certain things in revelation-- There were 4 world powers mentioned, all given the mark of a beast. Rev 13 shows a 7 headed beast, signifying there will be 7 in all time. The roman empire is #5, The british empire is #6--the two horned beast of rev 13 is the 7th and final. A horn = a kingdom--the first beast shows 10 horns= a place where kingdoms gather. 2 horned beast-2 kingdoms working together. So they are not individual human beings.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 7, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
Look, I don't care how much you seem to want to argue with Scripture. But Rev 6:6,10 is very clear. John in his vision of the future, saw souls (of dead saints) shouting in heaven. Figure that out.

Phoneman-777 said:

With a bit of discernment, one can easily separate these 2 sights. The Bible says "SOULS". That's what it means.

Regarding the 10 horned 7 headed beast, since there isn't anything literal about that, is obviously a symbol. But "souls"? What in the world would that be a symbol of?

FreeGrace2 said:
And Jesus gave us a clear glimpse of life in the after life. Figure that out. And it isn't a parable. Or show me any parable where Jesus named some of the people, and REAL people no less.

This is a stupid question. What is your problem? And where are any parables where Jesus named real people? You don't have any. That's what separates His account of the beggar and rich man from parables. He was telling a real story about real people.

No, we don't have people wth "resurrection bodies". You just keep misunderstanding Scripture.

When Jesus or the Bible speaks of "resurrection bodies" it specifically refers to "glorified bodies", and NO ONE gets theirs until the single resurrection of believers at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23 and 2 Thess 2:1-3.

Some scholars have surmised that there is some kind of "interim body" for people who die and go to heaven. Doesn't matter. What does matter is that the Bible SAYS there are souls in heaven shouting. I'm not worrying about it. You should just accept what the Bible says.

Are you going to ignore post #814?

That would be the easy way out, but you should at be honest about your theology. If there is soul sleep at physical death, you've got to explain why Paul wrote what he did.

I believe Phil 1:21, 23 prove that souls go immediately to heaven at death.

You can't prove me wrong from Scripture. Or you would have by now.

Your understanding of all those verses you've quoted about sleeping, death, etc are proved to be a very WRONG understanding of them from what Paul wrote in Phil 1:21,23.

So, either YOUR understanding of your fav verses is WRONG, or Paul was WRONG.

Which is it? They both cannot be right.

FreeGrace2 · Jan 7, 2022

keiw said:

Actually, the "mark of the beast" will be given to everyone who wants to be able to buy and sell. Those are individuals.

Here's the kicker. God doesn't hold "systems" whether political or religious, accountable. He DOES hold individuals accountable.

You can believe the beast and FP are systems. But systems aren't cast into the LoF. People and angels will be. Rev 20:15.

btw, even systems have someone who leads them. Call them kings, presidents, etc. Doesn't matter. Even boards are made up of individuals.

Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Member

Banned

Banned

Member

Banned

Banned