It's discouraging to wake up to email notifications of "christians" battling it out with one another.
I wish there were another way of communication.
I wish there were another way of communication.
NOT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED
- Thread starter EddieRamos
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This part may perhaps be a blinding part. Is this another "hath God says?" All of the English Translations,s as far as I know, designate the first "theos" to Satan and what you are doing is trying to bend the context. Sorry, your Greek learning doesn't impress me and with your own translation as well. You are at your own this time even the YLT has left you behind which says the "god" of this world in small capital "g". The greek theos can be translated as God in capital G of course, god Acts 28:6 (small g), gods Acts 14:11, 1Cor. 8:5, goddess Acts 19:37 even angels, etc, This simply means you claim to be your own authority and I wouldn't bow.
I would disagree with these points (except for point #2). Pleaselet me explain.
1. Belief is not said to lead to salvation, it is incorrectly understood to lead to salvation. But, genuine belief is a product of regeneration. The understanding of the first statement is based on a plain reading of the text and then drawing our own conclusions from it. For example, we see a jailer who asks a simple question and is given a clear and direct answer. So, the jailer does just that, and we are given no reason to conclude that he was not saved, or his house.
But this account can't isolated from the rest of the Bible, if we hope to have proper understanding of it. So, if we're reading through this account for the first time, it naturally leaves us with an idea of simplicity insofar as getting saved is concerned.
But then as we continue to look through the scriptures, we come across the account in John 8:30-44. And if we're paying close attention, we see Jews believing in Jesus Christ. Yet, as the context reveals, this belief had no impact on their salvation.
Thus, we have come across an apparent contradiction. And this is the Bible's way of instructing us that we need to reevaluate our initial idea of how one becomes saved. It is this way with any doctrine. We have to put the pieces together.
3. Simon was told much more than he was on a wrong path, he was told that his true spiritual condition had not changed. King David, we could say, was on the wrong path (for a time), but we know that he was a true child of God. But all the language used when referring to Simon was that he was still in his unsaved condition. How can we be sure? By looking up the words God uses to describe him. One of those words is "bitterness" which is used only in the context of the unsaved.
4. No one knows for sure if Simon ever became saved because the scriptures don't give us that information. After the record of his account in Acts 8, we read no more of him. But what we do know, with the information that we are given, is that, despite believing and being baptized, his spiritual condition had not changed.
5. Therefore, premise #1 (which you put forth) is not true in any case. Belief (which is obedience to a commandment, thus making it a work of righteousness) doesn't not lead to salvation at all. At least not to initial salvation, but comes after salvation.
And to illustrate this, God gives us many great examples of how salvation took place. One such example is Lazarus, who typified someone who was spiritually dead. His resurrection therefore, is a picture of the salvation process. Someone who was dead in sins, being brought back to life eternal.
Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
What could Lazarus do to believe? Or, what could he do to call upon the name of the Lord? Nothing. It wasn't until the word of God (Christ) used his word to bring a dead soul back to life. This is what being born again is (or regeneration). And the only prerequisite that had to take place was hearing the Word of God.
Now, Lazarus could obey any command that was given to him, the same way any born again individual could also do, like believe, repent, call upon the name of the Lord, etc, as these are all commandments. But regeneration had to take place first, everything else is an act of obedience which demonstrates our love for the one who has given us eternal life.
Psalms 80:18 (KJV)
18 So will not we go back from thee:
quicken us (bring us to life) and we will call upon thy name.
The Bible confirms this everywhere we look.
When you get right down to it, Calvinists are wilfully blind (and of course contradicting themselves, the best example being John Calvin himself).
They will look at a plain verse in the Bible and tell you that it is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what it says. Take John 12:32 which are the words of Christ: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me. It should be noted that "men" is in italics in the KJV because the Greek simply has "all" (panta). So just this one verse contradicts (a) limited atonement and (b) unconditional election. And if you knock down two "dominoes" the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.
Now, instead of admitted that TULIP is totally false in light of this verse, they will try to dodge its significance and claim that Jesus really did not mean what He said here. He really did not mean the entire human race by saying "all" (not only in this verse but many others).
You just love contradicting the Word of God, don't you? Just bear in mind that these discussions are not merely theological games. When you contradict God and Christ you put yourself in great jeopardy. So a word to the wise should be sufficient. Now just so you know that your above statement is FALSE, go to every verse which has "believe" (or its equivalent) and see that you have contradicted God.
K
kaylagrl
Guest
I was going to drop you a pm but you have a limit on friends.
Just wanted you to know I appreciate your posts.
I was going to drop you a pm but you have a limit on friends.
Thank you very much, you have no idea of what that means to me. With all of the bitterness, it wears on me and I find myself retorting back with the same general attitude, which is not becoming of my Transformation. When I find that I am falling backward, I realize that I need to take a break and step away for a while. But, stepping away is not what I want to do, yet I must as the hostility has begun to impact my ability to study for an exam that I have coming up.
I think the "limit" is at site level, as CC is requesting that we pay in order to be able to send and receive messages. However, you're always welcome to reach out at 2ndtimothygroup@gmail.com.
Thanks again!
David
Regarding John 8 and the Jews, I broke this down in post #147 (last part). But we don't have to wonder if they believed in his words on on Christ himself. The text tells us that as he spake, many Jews believed on him (on Christ).
Tou then asked a good question, "Why else would they then follow up by accusing Jesus of having a devil if they believed in Jesus Christ?".
You have a point insofar as their outward behavior is concerned, but we have to remember, this is the Word of God, and God is the one telling us that they believed. Therefore, in whatever capacity they believed on Jesus Christ, we're told that they believed on him. If we look at the context, before God tells us that they believed, they heard Jesus say that if they didn't believe that he was God (I AM) (the "he" is not in the original text) that they would die in their sins.
John 8:24 (KJV)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM [he], ye shall die in your sins.
It could be that these Jews believed the same manner the Jews in John 12 believed.
John 12:42 (KJV)
Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
It could be that the Jews in John 8 believed within themselves out of a fear that Jesus' words might actually be true. But outwardly they still disdained him and his words. I'm just speculating to answer your question, but like I said, God is the onenwho told us that they believed on Jesus Christ. Yet, of course, we're told here that it didn't change anything insofar as their salvation is concerned.
Insofar as comparing this to the account of Saul of Tarsus, we're never told that Saul believed on Christ prior to God's revelation to him that he was chosen and that Christ was already in him.
But with these Jews, (however many there were), we can say without a shadow of a doubt that they never became saved. This goes back to the doctrine of election and payment for sins. Without going too far into these doctrines right now, let me say that Christ only paid for the sins of those he chose to save, the elect. Let me explain how that fits in with the Jews of John 8.
John 8:44 (KJV)
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.....
In the scriptures, there are 3 types of persons in relation to Fathers.
1. God is your Father.
2. The Devil is your father.
3. You are fatherless.
Christ paid for the sins of His chosen people at the foundation of the world, that means he took upon himself their penalty of death by becoming sin for his people. This was enough to satisfy the demands of God's law. Now, as mankind would enter this world, over the course of time, they fit into one of the 3 categories.
If they were not elected unto salvation, this means that God can and does justly condemn them for their sin, and they have to pay for their own sin by their own death (Rom 6:23).
This means that they are a child of the devil, like Cain and Esau was.
Incidentally, this is also what it means to be hated in the Bible. It's the opposite of being loved which relates in every way to having had your sins paid for. Being hated means that you pay for your own sins. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated".
Then you have those whose sins were paid for (the elect) but God has not yet regenerated/saved that individual. This means that God is not yet his heavenly father and he is not yet a son of God. God identifies these people as fatherless.
Exodus 22:22 (KJV)
Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
God also uses a widow to describe the same thing, but that is perhaps for another time. But here, in the law, which many consider obsolete, we begin to learn a great spiritual truth. Why does God only concern himself with the fatherless and never the motherless?
James 1:27 (KJV)
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Visiting the fatherless (and widows) was not literal, it was spiritually speaking of bringing the gospel to the world and as a result, God would apply his salvation upon all the fatherless (the elect whose sins were paid for) in his time.
In other words, Christ's atonement created spiritual orphans, which is another good example of not relying on a dictionary to define a word, as an orphan is defined as someone who has no father or mother. But the Bible is its own dictionary and God defines an orphan as someone who has no father.
Lamentations 5:3 (KJV)
We are orphans and fatherless,
our mothers are as widows.
And an orphan needs adoption, which I exactly what Christ's atonement accomplished. It not only made the elect orphans, but it also allowed them to become adopted upon God saving them.
Ephesians 1:5 (KJV)
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Galatians 4:5 (KJV)
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Romans 8:15 (KJV)
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
I hope you can see how all this fits together and finds agreement in the scriptures. So, anyone who is called a child of the devil already has a father and is not fatherless.
Nowhere do the scriptures teach that Christ's death turned the whole world into orphans waitingfor adoption. Here we are given confirmation since children of the devil still existed after the cross.
Acts 13:10 (KJV)
And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
Not what, but who. Everyone whose sins were laid upon Jesus Christ. The elect.
Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
And YOU, ................, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Here is the context:
Colossians 2:11-13 (KJV)
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
When Christ rose from the dead, this then provided the means by which God would raise his elect from the dead (i.e. save them).
I hope this helps.
well I am not a Calvinist nor looking to become one
depending on when one is, or is not a Calvinist, their perception on the occurrences in the video are seen differently...or perhaps understood differently would be clearer
I am also neither Pentecostal or Charismatic
however, I am baptized in or with the Holy Spirit and understand what happened that night because I am
What happened that night was not a baptism of the Holy Spirit - it was an express sovereign act of God that led to the salvation of people in a village five miles away who never even heard the gospel. Not one house or even many houses - but the entirety of the village. No one even heard the gospel and yet they were all saved and confessed their faith in Christ.
It seems to myself that this fact is the singular fact - expressed as I have done - as a witness of the audio tape and the first hand witness of numerous people who were in that move of God to myself - including Donald Macphail - who was baptised in the Holy Spirit two weeks after he was saved several months before hand.
It can scarcely matter can it? It seems to be more important to speak ill of Calvin than to humbly acknowledge the sovereign power of God. This event was NOT a baptism of the Holy Spirit - it was the sovereign hand of God wrought through the simple faith of a child to save thousands of men, women and children in a remarkable and non contentious way. That ought to be a sobering reality to a church today that is endlessly divisive and individualistic to a point of ruination.
May the Lord have mercy on us and deliver us from our flesh.
What was quickened together with christ was the Flesh, as in "Sarx." Gal 3:13 tells us that it is the Flesh, the Sinful Nature.
Galatians 3:13 NLT - "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
I'm not sure if you read the entire post you just quoted, but I also expounded a little more, further down the post. I stated, "......Belief (which is obedience to a commandment, thus making it a work of righteousness) does not lead to salvation at all. At least not to initial salvation, but comes after salvation".
Salvation is not completed until the last day. Until then, it is a process in which God both begins and carries to completion.
Philippians 1:6 (KJV)
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 1:8-9 (KJV)
Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Weare in full agreement that the scriptures are not to play games with the text or even to take any of it lightly. I have stated many times that this is the Holy Word of God. I believe the problem is that you don't agree with what I am presenting from the scriptures because you feel I am contradicting what the Word of God plainly states.
So the hermeneutic we each use appears to be our parting point. I keep claiming that the word of God is not to be taken at face value because Christ always spoke in parables and therefore, unless there is biblical evidence to take something plainly, then we must always look for the meaning behind the apparently plain words. That is the very reason parables were given, to conceal truth.
But you seem to trust in the opposite type of hermeneutic. That Christ's words are plain words and we are to take them at face value. Yet, despite my many requests to have some scripture that teaches you to do this with God's word, I haven't received any. Does it not bother you that the hermeneutic you are using isn't found in the scriptures at all?
But we can look at many examples of Christ appearing to speak plainly and yet he means something altogether different and unrelated to what he plainly stated. But this is the nature of Christ's (the word of God) doctrine.
Mark 4:2 (KJV)
And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
So, anytime there is disagreement with what someone else is presenting, it's always beneficial that when bringing correction, that it be done so with the scriptures. This doesn’t necessarily mean that an agreement will be found, but at least we can see where each other is getting our doctrine from.
The Bible says ..in the end times there will be great deceptions. We are there.
It will get worse. I for one will stay with God's word as written and naturally will be attacked by the new age religion faction.
Amen (verily let it be).
My hope, more than anything (considering that I have been Circumcised by Christ), is that I get better at the Righteous, Holy and incredible Words of Christ below:
Matthew 5:43-48 NKJV - "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? "And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more [than others]? Do not even the tax collectors do so? "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."
Lord, help me.
"genuine belief is a product of regeneration"
The state of believing results from an internal circumstance. A nature that is expressing itself.
"John 8"
The passage seems to convey that there were some in the audience that believed Jesus' talking points rather than a belief in Christ Himself. It does not seem to be a likely case that the passage conveys that they believed in Jesus Christ.
"this belief had no impact on their salvation."
The idea that belief has no bearing on salvation is a contradiction to passages such as Acts 16:31.
Another way to look at this is that the ability to believe is a gift.
"he was told that his true spiritual condition had not changed."
What you have proposed is not evident in the texts. Simon was told that his heart was not right before God, not that his spiritual condition was unchanged.
"bitterness which is used only in the context of the unsaved."
What you have said here is not necessarily true. First you have assumed Simon was unsaved and then speculated that all references to a descriptor are synonymous with being unsaved. You have taken an assumption in order to demonstrate an assumption.
"Belief is a work"
We see in John 6:44 that those that are called to Christ are drawn by the Father. And more explicitly we see in Eph 2:8-9 that faith is a gift and not a work.
"Lazarus, who typified someone who was spiritually dead"
Given the story of Lazarus and the rich man, this does not appear to be the case. The other story with the resurrection of Lazarus is seemingly an indication that Christ will keep His promise of eternal life and resurrection.
"At least not to initial salvation, but comes after salvation."
We endeavour to love God with all of our heart, mind, and soul. We embrace our gifts given to us through the grace of God. The perception might be sequential from faith to salvation but the timing is simultaneous to our internal change/rebirth. Faith is a gift, salvation is a gift, becoming born again is a gift.
"Belief in Christ is a commandment"
1 John 3:23 is actually a commandment to believe in the name of Jesus Christ, as opposed to a commandment to believe in Jesus Christ.
Believing in Jesus always results in being saved, with no exceptions. The believers in John 8 and Simon were saved.
John 8:
30. As he spake these words, many believed on him.
The text doesn’t say that they outwardly expressed their belief. Jesus discerned who they were.
31a. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him ...
The text indicates that Jesus spoke to the believers in the hearing of the whole crowd. It says nothing about him addressing them as believers in the hearing of the crowd.
31b. If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
This statement isn’t about salvation; it’s about discipleship.
33a. They answered him ...
“They” is the crowd.
Acts 8:
20. Thy money perish with thee ...
This is an expression that uses physical death as a reference.
20. ... because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
The gift is the ‘power’ in verse 19, not salvation.
21. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter:
The ‘matter’ is the laying on of hands, so others could receive the Holy Spirit. The other Samaritan converts didn’t have a part in that transitional matter either. Apparently Philip didn’t have a part in it. No Christian today has a part in that matter. Only the apostles from Jerusalem (Peter & John) did.
21. for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Born again believers can have a heart that’s not right in the sight of God. (2 Cor. 12:20,21, Gal. 2:11, 1 Cor. 11:30, etc.).
22. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness,
All saved, eternally secure believers need to repent of their wickednesses during their earthly walk.
22. and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Amen. 1 John 1:9
23. thou art in the gall of bitterness,
Unrepentant sin is a temporal poison to any eternally secure person.
23. and in the bond of iniquity.
Saved people commit iniquities. Iniquity is binding, until it’s loosed by confession and repentance. There may still be lingering temporal consequences of the iniquity (such as in the case with David).
John 8:
30. As he spake these words, many believed on him.
The text doesn’t say that they outwardly expressed their belief. Jesus discerned who they were.
31a. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him ...
The text indicates that Jesus spoke to the believers in the hearing of the whole crowd. It says nothing about him addressing them as believers in the hearing of the crowd.
31b. If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
This statement isn’t about salvation; it’s about discipleship.
33a. They answered him ...
“They” is the crowd.
Acts 8:
20. Thy money perish with thee ...
This is an expression that uses physical death as a reference.
20. ... because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
The gift is the ‘power’ in verse 19, not salvation.
21. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter:
The ‘matter’ is the laying on of hands, so others could receive the Holy Spirit. The other Samaritan converts didn’t have a part in that transitional matter either. Apparently Philip didn’t have a part in it. No Christian today has a part in that matter. Only the apostles from Jerusalem (Peter & John) did.
21. for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Born again believers can have a heart that’s not right in the sight of God. (2 Cor. 12:20,21, Gal. 2:11, 1 Cor. 11:30, etc.).
22. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness,
All saved, eternally secure believers need to repent of their wickednesses during their earthly walk.
22. and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Amen. 1 John 1:9
23. thou art in the gall of bitterness,
Unrepentant sin is a temporal poison to any eternally secure person.
23. and in the bond of iniquity.
Saved people commit iniquities. Iniquity is binding, until it’s loosed by confession and repentance. There may still be lingering temporal consequences of the iniquity (such as in the case with David).
S
SophieT
Guest
yes I know it was not baptism of the Holy Spirit. yes I know it was a sovereign act of God...in response to prayer....none of which persuades me towards TULIP
oh please. don't start with speaking ill of Calvin.
you have 0 idea of my life experiences, my walk with Christ or any gifts of the Spirit I may have to the good of the body of Christ (which is what they are for)
further, I never stated that what occurred was the baptism of the Holy Spirit so I don't know why you bring it up again.
I am not sure you understood my posts and that's fine. I have nothing to prove in any direction
Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood your initial question the first time around.
Galatians 3:13 (KJV)
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
The curse of the law, we know, is death (Rom 6:23). Christ redeemed his people by taking upon himself their sins and thereby taking upon himself the punishment that the law requires for sin. That punishment is death.
So when we read that we were buried with him, this wouldn't mean that we actually paid for sins with Christ, but actually means that when Christ died and bore the sins of His elect, that each elect identified with Christ's death because it was our very own sin that he bore. As such, we were redeemed.
But the application of our redemption takes place at different times. First the soul was raised to life (regeneration), while we still posses a cursed body of flesh that lusts after sin. Then in the last day, Christ's redemption will be applied to our bodies, when we put off this Cursed mortal body and put on our new incorruptible and immortal body.
1 Corinthians 15:53-54 (KJV)
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
So, to answer your question, "What was quickened together with Christ?" It wasn't our flesh nor the sinful nature of our flesh. We know this because a true believer still lives in a body that lusts after sin.
Romans 7:16-18 (KJV)
If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
John 6:63 (KJV)
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
There physical evidence of sin in our flesh (even if we're saved) is that we still die, as per God's law.
So, being "risen" or "quickened" together with Christ means that Christ's resurrection made eternal life possible for each person that he died for, because he paid for everyone of their sins so they they could never again die. This is eternal Life.
Colossians 2:11-13 (KJV)
In whom also YE are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also YE are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;