NOT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED

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SophieT

Guest
I don't think Calvinists are aware that they are actually contradicting themselves regarding faith and salvation

according to Calvinists, we are too depraved to choose what is right so we cannot choose Christ and we are basically chosen to have faith to accept Christ.

so we do nothing. let me repeat. we do nothing.

so how then is faith a work?

it is God's work if we can do nothing and we are all predestined for salvation

so we do not work and whatever works one does in faith to God are not even our own....but we are chosen by God to do them

I don't know, but it seems pretty plain to me it is a contradiction that is not considered nor seen by someone intent on declaring faith is work

just sayin' :unsure:
 
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I believe that the Bible, Old and New Testament, is the inerrant and truth of God's word. But how can it be used if we all read it and come up with different meanings? What good does the Bible do for us since we can't agree to it's meaning. So many posts on this thread and on this Christianchat board, and no one agrees with each other as to how to interpret the Scripture. Instead, each of us has their own viewpoint and posts it along with a number of Scripture passages to support their viewpoint. It seems that each of us has appointed ourselves as the authority on Scripture. So, what good is Scripture if we all disagree as to it's meaning?
Good point. If someone, anyone (including myself) begins building on a crooked foundation, then the whole building will be crooked. Likewise, when we begin to understand the scriptures and build doctrine upon a faulty hermeneutic, then there cannot be harmony within the scriptures and the doctrines built are faulty as the scriptures reveal.

I have asked multiple people if anyone could post any scriptures which teach that the literal historical grammatical method of interpretation is the correct hermeneutic. But no one has so far.

Sadly, it's this very method (the most widely accepted method) that gives the reader the authority to determine what is to be taken at face value and what is allegorical, or with the idea, "what did this mean to them at that time?".

But God has given us his very own instructions in his own word to teach us how he expects us to properly divide the word of truth. But it's this very method that also brings confusion which is why it's not used.
 
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seriously?

these verses are not describing faith for salvation

these verses directly address AFTER a person has come to faith

BIG difference

forget works. how about a change in character? how about fruit of the Spirit? THOSE are actually evident in a person who has committed to follow Christ

as I said to someone else already in this thread, anyone can do works. saved or unsaved.
What then is the word "save him" referring to? Save him from what? This is the very word (save) that speaks of salvation.

And the very context here is about justification by faith, but not by faith alone, but by faith and works. To be justified means that you have become righteous (saved).

James 2:21-22 (KJV)
Was not Abraham our father justified (made righteous) by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


How then can this be speaking after salvation? Please provide for me the scriptures which teach that. This is not to say that salvation was by works, but that the faith required to save had to be accompanied by works or else it could not save. This is why saving faith accompanied by works, are what saved. And BOTH were that of Christ.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Hebrews 4:3 (KJV)
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


John 6:29 (KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto them, THIS IS THE WORK OF , THAT YE BELIEVE ON HIM whom he hath sent.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
What then is the word "save him" referring to? Save him from what? This is the very word (save) that speaks of salvation.

And the very context here is about justification by faith, but not by faith alone, but by faith and works. To be justified means that you have become righteous (saved).

James 2:21-22 (KJV)
Was not Abraham our father justified (made righteous) by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


How then can this be speaking after salvation? Please provide for me the scriptures which teach that. This is not to say that salvation was by works, but that the faith required to save had to be accompanied by works or else it could not save. This is why saving faith accompanied by works, are what saved. And BOTH were that of Christ.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Hebrews 4:3 (KJV)
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


John 6:29 (KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto them, THIS IS THE WORK OF , THAT YE BELIEVE ON HIM whom he hath sent.

you are jumping all over the place

why are you posting about the law? I said nothing about the law

the works are those of Christ...Galatians...HIS completed work, not ours

and let's put John 6 in context as follows:

chapter concerns Jesus feeding the 5000. the following day, the crowd wanted to know what works they should be doing. and Jesus replied that the work of God was for them to believe in Him (Jesus) obviously a very brief synopsis...nothing of how we should work but rather believe in the work of God

28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

again, God's work...not our work. believe here is not a work, but acceptance of God's work. Jewish people here were already all caught up in rituals and works and keeping commandments. Jesus was showing them a better way...GOD'S way.... not the keeping of any commandments or works...but a way of faith in Him...God's way and the only way for salvation, Jesus

this is not saying that believing is a work in any economy except perhaps a Calvinist who is very busy trying to teach everyone their doctrine

yes, I am aware that you have a radio show and a Q & A platform and it seems you have taken it here

but again, this is not a teaching platform and we are all not asking you these questions...we are replying to your posts which is what goes on here 24/7
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,114
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Ok, so we agree that the word "born" here is speaking about being born again, meaning saved. I followed you that far, but your next sentence does not agree with the rest of scriptures here.

You understood the next part of the verse which says that we're not born again by the will of man, to mean that we're not physically born again? If I misunderstood please correct me. But of course no one is physically born again, it can only be spiritually speaking about salvation. So let's read it with that understanding.

John 1:11-13 (KJV) 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. (This was because God blinded them)12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God (to be saved), even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born (meaning "born again", or "became sons of God" or "were saved"),

-not of blood, (meaning, they were saved, not based on blood line, like the being a physicall descendant of Abraham).
-nor of the will of the flesh, (Meaning, they were saved, not by man's own will)
-nor of the will of man,
(again, not saved by man's own will).
but of God. (But they were saved by God's own will)

James 1:18 (KJV) 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Everyone who was ever saved, was saved, not based on who they were, nor based by their desire or effort or will, but by God's own will. And God’s will is that none perish.

2 Peter 3:8-9 (KJV)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Yet because people do perish, people reinterpret the word "willing" to mean "permissive will". In other words, God is hoping no one perishes. But that is not so. God’s will is perfect and the context shows us that every human being is not the focus of who God is not willing should perish. It's not the world but the beloved. Those who were loved by Jesus Christ and had their sins paid for.

This is what it means to be born again by the will of God. And since God is the one who granted repentance to the acknowledgingof the truth, we can see that all the work of salvation was in the hands (by the will) of God.
Well, he is contrasting the will of man, flesh, blood (physically) as against the will of God (spiritually). This is due to the fact that Jesus came and was born. By God’s own will we are begotten through the word of truth (James 1:18), being born again by the incorruptible seed which is the word of God(1 Peter 1:21). Again as in John3, the being born again, teaches us that this is spiritual birth as against physical birth and that this regeneration is the work of the Spirit yet, we are born again as we believe in Christ as John 1:12 says “But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them the believe in his name” Of course, God didn’t blind them. Satan did.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

To believe in Christ is not having your own will by yourself. It is trusting solely on Christ for salvation. Christ says better than you and when Christ says “believe on me” then it is his will, it is God’s will to believe. Accordingly, in a moment one believes, then one is saved. This is attested by Apostle John when he wrote in John 20:31; John 3:16

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

So believing in Christ is not by your own will, it is God’s will. What is not God’s will is to reject him as many Jews did. Don’t you forget that prior to v.12-14 was written “he came unto his own and his own receive him not”? And this is actually what the context means of the “will of God”. You need to believe in Christ to become his child and this is a simple yet become a hard thing to do according to works Salvationist and Calvinism
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,114
965
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2 Peter 3:8-9 (KJV)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Yet because people do perish, people reinterpret the word "willing" to mean "permissive will". In other words, God is hoping no one perishes. But that is not so. God’s will is perfect and the context shows us that every human being is not the focus of who God is not willing should perish. It's not the world but the beloved. Those who were loved by Jesus Christ and had their sins paid for.

This is what it means to be born again by the will of God. And since God is the one who granted repentance to the acknowledgingof the truth, we can see that all the work of salvation was in the hands (by the will) of God.

Please look at the life of Saul of Tarsus who was set forth as an example of everyone who would later believe. Did he come to Christ because he first believed? No, he persecuted those who spoke in the name of Christ. He rejected him. Yet, all the while, like a stubborn mule who kicks against the pricks, he was trying to resist what he was going against was he was chosen for. Salvation. All the while Saul was persecuting Christ, God (in his own time, not ours) revealed to Paul that Christ was already in Him. Meaning, Saul was an elect child of God.
Umm, I don’t see that this passage refers to “permissive will” but the ALL is the WHOLE. No exemptions though Peter is writing to the “beloved” and he may refer to “us-ward”, these were saved. But when Peter says “some men” are also included in that “any” or the “all” should come to repentance.

(2 Peter 3:8-9) "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. {9} The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
 
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you are jumping all over the place

why are you posting about the law? I said nothing about the law

the works are those of Christ...Galatians...HIS completed work, not ours

and let's put John 6 in context as follows:

chapter concerns Jesus feeding the 5000. the following day, the crowd wanted to know what works they should be doing. and Jesus replied that the work of God was for them to believe in Him (Jesus) obviously a very brief synopsis...nothing of how we should work but rather believe in the work of God

28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

again, God's work...not our work. believe here is not a work, but acceptance of God's work. Jewish people here were already all caught up in rituals and works and keeping commandments. Jesus was showing them a better way...GOD'S way.... not the keeping of any commandments or works...but a way of faith in Him...God's way and the only way for salvation, Jesus

this is not saying that believing is a work in any economy except perhaps a Calvinist who is very busy trying to teach everyone their doctrine

yes, I am aware that you have a radio show and a Q & A platform and it seems you have taken it here

but again, this is not a teaching platform and we are all not asking you these questions...we are replying to your posts which is what goes on here 24/7
The Bible's method of interpretation is to use all of Scripture (rightly divided of course) in order to obtain a correct understanding. Perhaps you didn't understand what I said prior to posting those scriptures which us why you're asking me about why I posted about the law. I didn't (at least not directly). Here is what I said prior to posting the verses.

".....This is why saving faith accompanied by works, are what saved. And BOTH were that of Christ.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Hebrews 4:3 (KJV)
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."


In other words, the scriptures above are speaking about being justified (just like we were discussing in James 2) by works, but here, it becomes clear (where James 2 us obscure) that we are justified by the faith/works of Jesus Christ and not our own.

The works are the works of salvation which Christ accomplished from the foundation of the world.

So you have here faith and works, just like James 2 says that one without the other can't save. That is because both are needed for justification. That is why it cannot be our faith along with our works that justify us, but rather the faith of Christ accompanied by his work of atonement.

In John 6 we read:

John 6:27-28 (KJV)
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

So, this question of theirs was not an arbitrary question of what they should be doing now after they had eaten, but more specifically, it was a question based on what Christ said in vs 27. He told them to work (labor) for that meat which endureth unto eternal life. Well, this won't make sense unless we understand that "meat" is a synonym for a deeper understanding of the word of God.

Hebrews 5:13-14 (KJV)
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age
(this word is actually the word "perfect", which is speaking about the true born again believers) even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So, Christ's command to"labor for that meat which perisheth not" was taken by the crowd as some type of command to do some of work for God. Which resulted in the question, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?".

To which Jesus replies, based on his previous command which had to do with working towards spiritual understanding which is of eternal value. And he says:

John 6:29 (KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


In other words, before they could labor for that spiritual meat of deeper understanding they first needed to be saved. They needed to be "perfect". This is where the Holy Spirit which leads us into truth comes in, but Christ, who always spoke in parables, was teaching that the work required for one to believe on Jesus, was the work of God.

And this becomes evident as we travel to many scriptures to verify.

Romans 8:29-30 (KJV)
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Philippians 1:6 (KJV)
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,803
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"NOT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED" that is not written.

We know after the great tribulation when Christ comes sets foot on the earth He gathers the nations and splits them sheep and goats. We know in that moment not all that say lord lord shall. enter into the kingdom of heaven.

To me so much of this is mute. Well to know we can't see the heart.. so we don't know. Its nothing more then playing with speculation. Then saying something that is not again written " Simon after he believed and was baptized, and it was that he was still in the bond of iniquity, meaning, he was still in his sins and not truly saved. Simon’s decision to believe had no effect on his spiritual condition."

See you said "meaning he was still in his sins and not truly saved". That is no where in the word of God. He asked them to pray that none of those things come on him. So yes one could speculate he was just scared didn't want those things to happen. The other is to speculate he truly from his heart was asking for prayer. For me this was never about salvation. He wanted the power for himself.. and was in danger of.. something that was not yet.

Matt-John there were no Christians no Church. The word OT NT anyone that calls on the name of the lord shall be saved. Since again we can not see the heart. We share the good news. PRAISE GOD we get no say in this. My view is so easy to be saved than lost. Most through out time are blind. Jesus said if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains.

Today we don't have the 12 (with Paul) out there. Where we hear that one gospel. No today we hear what a believer personally believes and that becomes the real truth. All they had was what some heard Jesus say and then what others said they heard. No NT to fall back on and WHO had the Torah with them haha. So many just had.. He said believe on Him and He who sent Him and you are saved. We all know the thief that said remember me. Ya think he took the time to remember all his wrongs and repent before saying all that? No I don't think so. Praise GOD we have no say in who HE finds who HE draws to Him. Not here to offend.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
The Bible's method of interpretation is to use all of Scripture (rightly divided of course) in order to obtain a correct understanding. Perhaps you didn't understand what I said prior to posting those scriptures which us why you're asking me about why I posted about the law. I didn't (at least not directly). Here is what I said prior to posting the verses.

".....This is why saving faith accompanied by works, are what saved. And BOTH were that of Christ.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith OF Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Hebrews 4:3 (KJV)
For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."


In other words, the scriptures above are speaking about being justified (just like we were discussing in James 2) by works, but here, it becomes clear (where James 2 us obscure) that we are justified by the faith/works of Jesus Christ and not our own.

The works are the works of salvation which Christ accomplished from the foundation of the world.

So you have here faith and works, just like James 2 says that one without the other can't save. That is because both are needed for justification. That is why it cannot be our faith along with our works that justify us, but rather the faith of Christ accompanied by his work of atonement.

In John 6 we read:

John 6:27-28 (KJV)
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

So, this question of theirs was not an arbitrary question of what they should be doing now after they had eaten, but more specifically, it was a question based on what Christ said in vs 27. He told them to work (labor) for that meat which endureth unto eternal life. Well, this won't make sense unless we understand that "meat" is a synonym for a deeper understanding of the word of God.

Hebrews 5:13-14 (KJV)
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age
(this word is actually the word "perfect", which is speaking about the true born again believers) even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So, Christ's command to"labor for that meat which perisheth not" was taken by the crowd as some type of command to do some of work for God. Which resulted in the question, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?".

To which Jesus replies, based on his previous command which had to do with working towards spiritual understanding which is of eternal value. And he says:

John 6:29 (KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


In other words, before they could labor for that spiritual meat of deeper understanding they first needed to be saved. They needed to be "perfect". This is where the Holy Spirit which leads us into truth comes in, but Christ, who always spoke in parables, was teaching that the work required for one to believe on Jesus, was the work of God.

And this becomes evident as we travel to many scriptures to verify.

Romans 8:29-30 (KJV)
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Philippians 1:6 (KJV)
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
The Bible's method of interpretation is to use all of Scripture (rightly divided of course) in order to obtain a correct understanding.
but that is not what you are doing. using all of scripture does not mean take a verse here and take a verse there....as I remarked in my last post to you, you are all over the place...bringing in the law and Jesus words which say the opposite of what you think you He meant

In other words, the scriptures above are speaking about being justified (just like we were discussing in James 2) by works, but here, it becomes clear (where James 2 us obscure) that we are justified by the faith/works of Jesus Christ and not our own.

The works are the works of salvation which Christ accomplished from the foundation of the world.
smh, that is exactly what I have said and been saying while you insist that faith is a work of OURS. you are not talking to someone (and that includes many on this forum) that just recently picked up their Bible. you might deal with folks on your radio program that way, but this is not YOUR radio program and you are not explaining salvation.

this is not salvation for dummies here but you seem to think it is

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

In other words, before they could labor for that spiritual meat of deeper understanding they first needed to be saved. They needed to be "perfect". This is where the Holy Spirit which leads us into truth comes in, but Christ, who always spoke in parables, was teaching that the work required for one to believe on Jesus, was the work of God.
no sir. these people were asking about works...nothing about deeper spiritual meat. they could never be perfect and they pretty much knew it, considering the system of animal sacrifice in place.

utter baloney trying to suggest Jesus was speaking in a parable here.

chapter concerns Jesus feeding the 5000. the following day, the crowd wanted to know what works they should be doing. and Jesus replied that the work of God was for them to believe in Him (Jesus) obviously a very brief synopsis...nothing of how we should work but rather believe in the work of God

28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

again, God's work...not our work. believe here is not a work, but acceptance of God's work. Jewish people here were already all caught up in rituals and works and keeping commandments. Jesus was showing them a better way...GOD'S way.... not the keeping of any commandments or works...but a way of faith in Him...God's way and the only way for salvation, Jesus

you are really not being very honest at this point

since you are basically contradicting yourself in the last few posts. and most of us can see that, there is not much more to say

and anyone can copy/paste scripture as you have done, but Calvinism is a choice...not a doctrine

pretty much done with this dead end conversation
 
S

SophieT

Guest
my last word in this thread:

Jesus clearly taught in John 3:16 that He will save anyone who believes in Him: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” This “whoever” includes every person in the world.

further, it is God's desire that everyone believe in His Son

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

just as some people believe this means universalism, the belief that no one is lost, which is a wrong interpretation of the above, being told that we have no choice and are basically unable to choose, is also a wrong interpretation of certain scriptures

the truth is, not all are saved, even though God desires them to be....Calvinism states God does not want all saved

the truth is that Jesus Himself said He whoever believes in Him would not perish

this does not mean lip service, as the Bible itself makes clear, but yet the offer is there

really....we can choose as God Himself told the Israelites in the OT to choose, so we also are free to choose Christ

and I hope no one interprets the above to mean say the right words and you are saved. Jesus gave all.....not words
 
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Of course, God didn’t blind them. Satan did.

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

To believe in Christ is not having your own will by yourself. It is trusting solely on Christ for salvation. Christ says better than you and when Christ says “believe on me” then it is his will, it is God’s will to believe. Accordingly, in a moment one believes, then one is saved. This is attested by Apostle John when he wrote in John 20:31; John 3:16

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

So believing in Christ is not by your own will, it is God’s will. What is not God’s will is to reject him as many Jews did. Don’t you forget that prior to v.12-14 was written “he came unto his own and his own receive him not”? And this is actually what the context means of the “will of God”. You need to believe in Christ to become his child and this is a simple yet become a hard thing to do according to works Salvationist and Calvinism
If I can be frank, the reason I enjoy biblical dialogues is because no matter how hard we try to stay on one subject, it turns out that what we understand about any specific doctrine, is really made up of our entire biblical understanding. This is because the Bible is one cohesive truth in anything it teaches, and its truth intertwines throughout every verse. I mention this because when further explaining your position on John 1:12, you noticed, in my previous response, where I stated that Christ came to Israel, yet they rejected him (John 1:11). And I told you they rejected Christ because they were blinded from the truth. You in turn, responded that it was Satan that blinded them, not God, and then quoted 2 Cor 4:4.

Well, I think I will move on from John 1:12 as there is not much more for me to add there than what I already did. But, I can see that part of your understanding here has to do with the idea that you believe that God wants everyone to be saved and so, it would not make sense for God to be the one who blinded Israel, but rather Satan. But, I'd like to focus on that at his moment and show you from the scriptures that that isn't the case at all. Let's start with 2 Cor 4:4.

2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV 1900)
In whom the god (theos) this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God (theos ), should shine unto them.


As you can see, the translators took the liberty, as best as they understood the passage, to translate the first Greek word "theos" with a lower case "g", and then again, the same Greek word "theos" with an upper case "G". So, here the use of the same Greek word twice doesn't help us determine who is in view as the God of this world. So, as we look at the verse itself, depending on which side of the theological fence we are standing on, we will either reason that because God must want everyone to become saved (as you alluded to as per 2 Peter 3:9) that the translators did a correct job here, and the god of this world is indeed Satan. Or, if we are on the other side and acknowledge that 2 Peter 3:9 is only willing that the beloved not perish, meaning the elect, then the God of this world is not Satan at all, but God Almighty. And this demonstrates his sovereignty in salvation, as we spoke about earlier.

So, let's first ask a question, can you think of any one verse in the Bible that tells us that Satan has blinded anyone? I know you believe that 2 Cor 4:4 is proof enough, but this passage is actually obscure at best. I'll explain why. Everywhere we look through the Bible for people that are blinded, it has always been by God.

Genesis 19:11 (KJV 1900)
And they (God, in the form of 2 men) smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness
, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.

2 Kings 6:18 (KJV 1900)
And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the Lord, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.

Deuteronomy 28:28 (KJV 1900)
The Lord shall smite thee with madness, and blindness
, and astonishment of heart:


And what about the Jews who rejected Christ, who blinded them? God also.

John 12:37–41 (KJV 1900)
But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38
(This is why they did not believe) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? (God's will was not revealed to the Jews, to most Jews) 39 Therefore they COULD NOT BELIEVE, because that Esaias said again, (Here God explains how he kept them from knowing his will) 40 He (GOD) hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; (why would God do this? The next part explains) that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

So, the last verse really helps us to confirm why the Jews rejected Christ and did not truly believe. It was because they were blinded by God himself. Verse 40 assures of this as it tells us that it was "HE" who blinded them and then in the end of the verse we have confirmation that Esaias was definitely speaking of GOD. And this is of no surprise because God has been the only one in the scriptures who has ever blinded people according to his perfect will. Incidentally, we can go to the book of Isaiah and read where God was using Isaiah as a parable as someone who went to preach (to the Jews of the New Testament era) His message, and then God says something very strange. He says, I'm going to send you to preach, but I will not let them understand (paraphrased).

Isaiah 6:8–10 (KJV 1900)
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; And see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.


This is the very opposite of what is commonly understood as God's desire for man. Yet, it's all here. God's sovereignty is demonstrated in salvation. God accomplished this prophecy through Christ, by Christ speaking in parables.

Matthew 13:10–15 (KJV 1900)
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
(this is by God's decree, not Satan's) 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath (Or, seemeth to have). 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

So, when we finally get to 2 Corinthians 4:4, we have an abundance of biblical information to know that the god of this world can only be the one true GOD, and not at all Satan.

2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV 1900)
In whom the GOD (theos) this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of GOD (theos ), should shine unto them.


This follows suit and harmonizes perfectly with the scriptures provided.

Romans 11:7–10 (KJV 1900)
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.


Please examine this to see if it is so.
 
Jan 14, 2021
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I believe that the Bible, Old and New Testament, is the inerrant and truth of God's word. But how can it be used if we all read it and come up with different meanings? What good does the Bible do for us since we can't agree to it's meaning. So many posts on this thread and on this Christianchat board, and no one agrees with each other as to how to interpret the Scripture. Instead, each of us has their own viewpoint and posts it along with a number of Scripture passages to support their viewpoint. It seems that each of us has appointed ourselves as the authority on Scripture. So, what good is Scripture if we all disagree as to it's meaning?
The right hand and the left hand often grasp the same things in different ways. Difference of perspective and informed function aren't an indication that things aren't working, only that as different parts of the body of Christ we each have our own functions and missions which can lead us on different paths. The roads to salvation might be different but the narrow door remains the same.

We sometimes stumble unto the strange phenomenon of thinking that others here believe so much differently, but ultimately it is more often than not the same kind of contrast we see with household siblings we grow up with. It can feel like a sibling is a polar opposite to everything you think is right, but with the proper perspective we see that there are many shared sensibilities and innate outlooks that we have overlooked or taken for granted. Compared to the weirdness of the world, a sibling might as well be your clone. And likewise with brothers and sisters in Christ. Under a microscope we can all appear totally opposite when in truth we all share innate Christian sensibilities that we might often take for granted. Sometimes we see Christian sensibilities shine through people that were raised Christian but walked away to a different faith. Some of these people might have felt thrown off by the "brother wars" within Christian denominations and found mental comfort in jumping away to a different path. When the brothers' war can be quieted we open our arms to those wandering ones that have lost their way.

A person speaking fervently outside of pure scripture about abstaining from meat, or the condition of 'true belief' vs 'false belief', or 'works' as a requirement for salvation, more often than not are probably speaking from the conditions of their own circumstances. What they say may be a truism for them, guided by their faith. But it doesn't necessarily make it a universally applicable condition for all believers. Hands and feet have different requirements for how they are to function, but each is led by the same heartbeat, the same bodily rhythms and the same calling mind.

Differences aren't necessarily an indication of a house divided.
 
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If I were to ask you, “how many people do you know that believe in Jesus Christ?
Interesting topic. You clearly have a lot of passion behind your thoughts on this.

I will note that there are some logical errors or critical assumptions in your thoughts that should be explored.

You dismissed the use of common dictionaries but endorsed the use of Strongs despite the fact that both are categorically lexicographic. There is also a danger in assuming a direct equivalency based on Strongs, as a "goat" mentioned in a parable will clearly have a different meaning than a literal goat mentioned elsewhere. Context can't be ignored, and a word for word check will not always give you the correct meaning. It may be the case that "believe" can mean different things in different instances despite using the same Greek word. Translation is more than just an exchange of word-for-word. When we see "god of this world" there can be a wide variety of reasons a translation team chose to render that as "Satan", usually based on surrounding contexts. It's not that those passages can't be rendered as "God", but there is justification for either case. It's not as simple as just checking a Strongs entry.

Some of the examples you brought up follow this pattern:

1) Belief is said to lead to salvation
2) Simon the sorcerer believed
3) Simon was told he was on the wrong path
4) Therefore Simon categorically wasn't going to be saved
5) Therefore premise 1 is not true in all cases

Premise 5 leads directly from premise 4. The problem is that premise 4 is not necessarily true.

It does not follow that just because Simon's then-behaviour was not conducive to salvation that he would therefore not ultimately be saved. In fact, the correction that was given to him led him to be remorseful and in a state of mind lending to repentance and ultimate salvation. The fact that correction was given to him by God through others shows that God was willing to take the time to help him find salvation. At no point does it say he had forfeited God's grace or salvation. A person that has lost their way isn't necessarily destined not to be saved. Sometimes there is purpose in someone losing their way, perhaps for the sake of building perspective and strengthening faith in the long run. To me the story of Simon the sorcerer seems reassuring rather than gloomy.

We see the passages with the Pharisees that "believe on him" after Jesus gives an explanation. This could be in reference to belief in the words that he spoke rather than a belief in Christ. Why else would they then follow up by accusing Jesus of having a devil if they believed in Jesus Christ? The reference of "belief" in this case clearly isn't talking about the Pharisees believing in Jesus Christ as saviour. The verse just seems to indicate they were agreeable to Christ's preceding talking points. And even if we were to explore the concept that they believed in Christ yet were murderous, how does this rule out a later course correction like what was given to Paul?

The perspective that there is a true belief and false belief in scripture relative to evidence of works doesn't seem to be a strong argument. When you know you are in Christ, you know you are in Christ. But we can look at genuine belief vs the appearance of belief. We see the parable of tares and wheat that both have the same outward appearance but one lacks spiritual fruit. We see in the parable of the wedding banquet that one that is not properly clothed (presumably clothed in Christ) is ejected from the banquet.

I see good works as something that naturally follows from faith rather than the other way around. Something that comes as naturally as breathing. We see something that must be done and our conscience compels us. Different parts of scripture tell us to do these good deeds in secret. To pray in private, etc. Although that the deeds themselves may be seen. The problem with faith evidenced through action is that people try to convince each other outwardly of "how good they are" by the deeds that they advertise or the commandments they claim to perfectly follow. Sometimes this can lead to missing the forest for the trees. Psychologically speaking, this kind of mental saturation of "having done enough good deeds" is called moral balancing.

Not everyone that says they believe actually believes (despite perhaps even fooling themselves in some cases). In that sense there is "true" vs "false" belief. But if you know in your heart that you believe in Christ and Christ's love flows through you, scripture tells us that we will be saved. We aren't perfect, and we will continually fail time and time again to share God's love the way we know is right. But it is through Grace and the calling of our nature to believe.
 
Dec 19, 2021
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"NOT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED" that is not written.
Thank you for your reply. One of the things we learn from studying the scriptures is that the Bible teaches things that are not plainly written. That is the principle of parables. So, while the text, "not everyone who believes will be saved", isn't written, I provided some examples to demonstrate that this is certainly taught in the scriptures. Let’s talk about another statement that is not written, but certainly taught in the scriptures, based on your mention of sheep and goats. The statement is, that no goat can ever become a sheep. In the Bible, there are goats, who typify the unsaved. And there are sheep who typified those who have become born again. But what about those who are chosen for salvation, have had their sins paid for but have not yet become truly born again, what are they called? The Bible teaches us that they're called, "lost sheep". So, while my statement about a goat cannot become a sheep, is not written, it is certainly taught.

"
We know after the great tribulation when Christ comes sets foot on the earth He gathers the nations and splits them sheep and goats. We know in that moment not all that say lord lord shall. enter into the kingdom of heaven.
This is all parabolic language, as were all of Christ's teachings. But in effect, yes, not all who thought to have been saved, were actually truly saved. These are they who the Bible describes as wanting the name of a Christian, but obtaining it by their own means and by their own gospel, which would be no gospel at all.

Isaiah 4:1 (KJV)
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,
We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name,
to take away our reproach.


"
To me so much of this is mute. Well to know we can't see the heart.. so we don't know. Its nothing more then playing with speculation. Then saying something that is not again written " Simon after he believed and was baptized, and it was that he was still in the bond of iniquity, meaning, he was still in his sins and not truly saved. Simon’s decision to believe had no effect on his spiritual condition.

See you said "meaning he was still in his sins and not truly saved". That is no where in the word of God. He asked them to pray that none of those things come on him. So yes one could speculate he was just scared didn't want those things to happen. The other is to speculate he truly from his heart was asking for prayer. For me this was never about salvation. He wanted the power for himself.. and was in danger of.. something that was not yet.
You're correct insofar as no one being able to see the true condition of someone's heart (apart from biblical revelations we read of in the scriptures). That means that when God places emphasis on revealing to us the true condition of someone's heart, then we should pay close attention. For example, the comments you made above could stand to reason, if God had not provided for us the details we can't see. Here you have a bewitching sorcerer, ok, so what? Is he more wicked than someone who says, "Lord Lord, did I not do all these things in your name?". No. They are both under the same wrath of condemnation according to God's law. So, God's word tells us that Simon did the same as the others upon hearing the gospel message. He believed and was baptized.

And because Gid continues focusing on Simon and reveals to us that his spiritual condition had not changed, then we can be sure that making a decision to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ had no effect on his spiritual condition. The point is that it's accounts like this one that cause us to dig deeper in order to understand what's involved in true belief the way that God requires it, and not the way we deem it to be so. The key to true belief lies in the condition of the heart.

And here, we can know that Simon's heart was not changed. And we can speculate and say that he later seemed to be repentant, but even that would not save someone.

Acts 8:21-23 (KJV) 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Now, as with many characters in the Bible, we can’t be dogmatic beyond what information we are given. For example, all we can know here is that upto this point, Simon's spiritual condition had not changed upon his decision to believe and be baptized. Could God have saved him at some point later in his life, of course, but that is not for us to focus on. We can only use what information we are given.

And God leaves off telling us of his true spiritual condition. So this passage has everything to do, not only with salvation, but with the fact that there is much more to believing, than what is commonly understood. The heart had to first be changed by God. The individual had to be brought to life first (like Lazarus in his grave) before he could obey any of God's commandments.

"
Matt-John there were no Christians no Church. The word OT NT anyone that calls on the name of the lord shall be saved. Since again we can not see the heart. We share the good news. PRAISE GOD we get no say in this. My view is so easy to be saved than lost. Most through out time are blind. Jesus said if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains.


"
Today we don't have the 12 (with Paul) out there. Where we hear that one gospel. No today we hear what a believer personally believes and that becomes the real truth. All they had was what some heard Jesus say and then what others said they heard. No NT to fall back on and WHO had the Torah with them haha. So many just had.. He said believe on Him and He who sent Him and you are saved. We all know the thief that said remember me. Ya think he took the time to remember all his wrongs and repent before saying all that? No I don't think so. Praise GOD we have no say in who HE finds who HE draws to Him. Not here to offend.
None offence taken. We can all benefit from talking about the scriptures.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

Well-known member
Feb 20, 2021
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This is all parabolic language, as were all of Christ's teachings. But in effect, yes, not all who thought to have been saved, were actually truly saved. These are they who the Bible describes as wanting the name of a Christian, but obtaining it by their own means and by their own gospel, which would be no gospel at all.

Isaiah 4:1 (KJV)
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying,
We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name,
to take away our reproach.
This is an amazing correlation. It sure seems to be accurate.
 
Dec 19, 2021
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You dismissed the use of common dictionaries but endorsed the use of Strongs despite the fact that both are categorically lexicographic. There is also a danger in assuming a direct equivalency based on Strongs, as a "goat" mentioned in a parable will clearly have a different meaning than a literal goat mentioned elsewhere. Context can't be ignored, and a word for word check will not always give you the correct meaning. It may be the case that "believe" can mean different things in different instances despite using the same Greek word. Translation is more than just an exchange of word-for-word. When we see "god of this world" there can be a wide variety of reasons a translation team chose to render that as "Satan", usually based on surrounding contexts. It's not that those passages can't be rendered as "God", but there is justification for either case. It's not as simple as just checking a Strongs entry.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Since you touched on various points throughout this post, I may have to reply in sections.

Regarding Lexicons, Christian dictionaries, commentaries or Strong’s concordance. While true that these are all designed to be used as tools, they are not all beneficial. The reason I suggested (in a few of my posts) that commentaries and lexticons be not used, was due to the fact that the Bible is its own dictionary and commentary.

I then used the word "draw", as used in John 6:44 to explain this. A Lexicon will define this particular Greek word as, "drag" , "compell" "coerce", etc. This leaves the reader as the one who decides which word best fits in John 6:44. Thus, if I believe that God doesn't force anyone to salvation, then I would conclude (based on my understanding) that the word "draw" should mean "compell" . The word "drag" would certainly not even be on my list of considerations.

Yet, since this Greek word is only used 8 times in the Greek text, we can easily search it out to see how else God uses this particular word to see if it agrees with the context of the Bible. Why do I do this? Because if we are the ones who determine which word fits best, based on our own convictions and understanding of the immediate context, then we become the authority. And since many understand the scriptures based on the various hermeneutics each one uses, then not everyone will arrive at the same conclusion.

But when we realize that God used every word exactly as he purposed to do so within the original text, then when use his own word to define any word we are studying and arrive at a certain conclusion, then how do we know if we are correct? Because everything in the Bible will agree (harmonize). Likewise, if we develop our own method of defining a word, then contradictions will begin to appear as we continue studying, which indicate to us that we have committed an error.

Now, it may be so, that in our own English grammar, we use one word to mean different and completely unrelated things (like "duck"). But the Bible teaches us that we can't carry all the same rules we use to understand a common textbook as we would the Bible, because we would have to go into the Bible with the premise that God wrote it as text which is to be understood at face value (like normal books), and such is not the case.

When we let the Bible define a word, we can see that it fits with the context of the Bible, even though sometimes it may not make sense to us in the immediate context. You see how this way of thinking is actually opposite of our norm? (I'll provide an example in a bit).

But the translators job was to interpret the text as best as they were able, while also making the immediate context make sense. This then, made our job, as students of the Bible, a little more challenging to find the truth God had in store for us by using the words that he did.

Let me give you another example aside from the word "draw" .

Genesis 25:27 (KJV)
And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents.


On the surface, it seems that God is only giving us an outward description of what these men grew to be like. I won't go over Esau's description for the sake of space here, but let's focus on God's description of Jacob.

Here, the text says he was a plain man. So, if I look up the word "plain" in my dictionary, it tells me, "simple or ordinary ". Now, we don't really know what type of man Jacob historically was, not even with the use of the word "plain".

But if I let the Bible define this word, by using a concordance and looking up where else God uses this word, then I will quickly find that this word is means something altogether different. God wasn't telling us that Jacob was a plain man, but rather, God was describing Jacob's spiritual condition here. The word translated as "plain" is a word that relates to one's salvation as it is translated as "perfect", as "undefiled" and as "upright". Only here is it translated as "plain".

Thus, God was telling us that Jacob was a perfect man, or an upright man. In either case, we can know that God is describing the condition of his heart. Just as he is doing with Esau by describing him as a hunter and a man of the field ("the field is the world").

But God , in his wisdom, is able to use what appear to be common sentences and words that convey an actual historical account, while at the same time, conceal great spiritual truths. This is the nature of parables.

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV)
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing (
a word);
but the honour of kings is to search out a matter (a word).

So, the reason I use Strong's concordance is because it is a tool that assists me in locating where a particular Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek word, as it appears throughout the scriptures. But this tool is not without its errors either, which is the reason for continuing revisions. But it saves alot of time in Bible study. I don't know if this book also contains a Lexicon, as I never looked, but I only use it as a time saving, word locator tool.

So, I don't use Strong’s to define any words for me, but rather only to show me where the same words are used. Then I let the Bible define them for me as illustrated above.

And regarding the "god of this world", I just posted a response as to why it cannot be Satan (see post 191). This conclusion is based on the Scriptures as a whole, as the immediate context, once again, is obscure in spelling out who is in view. Even if someone believes that this, or any word is crystal clear in its immediate context, then searching the scriptures for further understanding will only serve to solidify what was already understood by agreeing with that understanding all the way through the Bibke. Or, if all we find is disagreement, then it is God’s way of telling us we need to make correction to our previous understanding.
 
May 22, 2020
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Don’t put words in my mouth.

It’s silly to even suggest a Christian shouldn’t do good works. Not the issue even slightly here.

The issue is the relationship between works and Salvation. And in that regard, there is ONLY one work, out of God’s own Mouth, that is necessary for Salvation.


John 6:28-29
New King James Version



28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Works and salvation is the point.

U seem to think works are not required, are wrong, or will not follow Gods expectations of a follower when in fact He previously said...in many ways....forget all you got and follow me...is not works? Perhaps you need to make clear your thought then...?...because thats what I got.
...and answer the question...what does scripture mean.....faith without works is dead......?....eample...there r others.

This whole discussion smacks of a ........new age religion origin.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Works and salvation is the point.

U seem to think works are not required, are wrong, or will not follow Gods expectations of a follower when in fact He previously said...in many ways....forget all you got and follow me...is not works? Perhaps you need to make clear your thought then...?...because thats what I got.
...and answer the question...what does scripture mean.....faith without works is dead......?....eample...there r others.

This whole discussion smacks of a ........new age religion origin.
You want to insult the Spirit of Grace by adding your works to Jesus’s finished work, knock yourself out!

As for me and my house, we will rely on the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ!
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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I

Genesis 19:11 (KJV 1900)
And they (God, in the form of 2 men) smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness
, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.


2 Kings 6:18 (KJV 1900)
And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the Lord, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.


Deuteronomy 28:28 (KJV 1900)
The Lord shall smite thee with madness, and blindness
, and astonishment of heart:
Well, the above passages have nothing to do with spiritual blindness. This is about physical blindness. You are off the topic.

And what about the Jews who rejected Christ, who blinded them? God also.

John 12:37–41 (KJV 1900)
But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38
(This is why they did not believe) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? (God's will was not revealed to the Jews, to most Jews) 39 Therefore they COULD NOT BELIEVE, because that Esaias said again, (Here God explains how he kept them from knowing his will) 40 He (GOD) hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; (why would God do this? The next part explains) that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
This might be your legitimate proof, yet, we will examine it. Yes in spite of many miracles being seen by the Jews, the Jews still rejected him. Their gross rejection of Christ in effect had their eyes from seeing the truth. The phrase “He hath blinded their eyes” could be understood by the scripture itself. Let the scripture be our commentary. Matthew 13:14-15, Acts 28:27 are our parallel verses and this explains well the quoted part of Prophet Isaiah. Actually, it was the people’s hearts that cause them their blindness so that by effect God blinded them. It is because they hated Christ more and ultimately rejected him that brought their own blindness hence God’s act is a regular effect. We have to notice that these Jews were said to them one time they were fulfilling the lust of their father, the Devil as in John 8:44 who had already blinded them, and yet these blind people increased their hatred to Christ and the blindness part is the effect of what they did. Others call this a judicial act of God which is an expression of a divine act. God permitted it because of their provocations.

So, in the light of the scriptures, this blinding part of God is definitely the effect of God’s judicial act.

Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.