Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Heaven_Bound]

I addressed that one in...

Post #2711 - https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4739833

Post #2712 - https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4739839


I've not seen you "hashing out" what I put at the links (to my posts) I supplied in those posts, though. = )





Irenaeus also believed in "3 levels" of destination for the believers [of all times]: "heaven," "paradise" and "earth"

[... so ^ because of the way he viewed this aspect ^ makes it even more convincing that how I'm reading him is indeed as I explain in those posts / post-links I supplied... b/c that is very similar to how the "pre-trib doctrine" understands things as well, differing only slightly]



P.S. to this post, in case some don't go look at those links to my posts... I am pretty convinced many people are MIS-READING Irenaeus (on the Subject of the timing related to Rapture / Caught Up... of the Church which is His body... in relation to what other thing he addresses in that quote...)

I see you completely ignored this portion of his statement:

There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

He said, the Tribulation is the LAST CONTEST the Righteous will Overcome!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Bear in mind also, that in our "Pre-Trib Rapture" understanding, Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [2Th2:7b-8a with language comparable to that found in Lamentations 2:3-4], etc) at the START of the "7 year period" (the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, per Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 re: the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book)... and it is THIS that we will not be ON THE EARTH experiencing when that begins to unfold upon the earth starting with SEAL #ONE.

It's not that we think "we" shouldn't have to experience "persections and tribulations" that even the Thessalonians were already experiencing back in the first century (2Th1:4, etc)... NO.

"The Church which is His body" [that's US!] has been experiencing these throughout its existence ever since its existence in the first century... and we are told to expect it ("yea, and ALL who will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL..."!!!)... NOW and THROUGHOUT the time that the Church exists on the earth! We are NOT waiting for the future "7 yr period" in order to experience it!


But His judgment (involving the "SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS" unfolding upon the earth ["to try those DWELLING[<--see this word, look it up] on the earth"])... no.

Coz that's WHEN His "JUDGMENT[ s ]" START.


And we can see, by the time Rev5:6 setting takes place, (aside from the fact of the "stephanous / crowns" being worn, which I mentioned in an earlier post) a "searching judgment" has ALREADY taken place, as indicated by the "WAS FOUND" [Grk] word used in 5:4... same as was used regarding Paul when he had been called to stand before their human "BEMA" in the latter chpts of Acts.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Bear in mind also, that in our "Pre-Trib Rapture" understanding, Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13, Rev5:6, [2Th2:7b-8a with language comparable to that found in Lamentations 2:3-4], etc) at the START of the "7 year period" (the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, per Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 re: the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book)... and it is THIS that we will not be ON THE EARTH experiencing when that begins to unfold upon the earth starting with SEAL #ONE.

It's not that we think "we" shouldn't have to experience "persections and tribulations" that even the Thessalonians were already experiencing back in the first century (2Th1:4, etc)... NO.

"The Church which is His body" [that's US!] has been experiencing these throughout its existence ever since its existence in the first century... and we are told to expect it ("yea, and ALL who will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL..."!!!)... NOW and THROUGHOUT the time that the Church exists on the earth! We are NOT waiting for the future "7 yr period" in order to experience it!


But His judgment (involving the "SEALS, TRUMPETS, VIALS" unfolding upon the earth ["to try those DWELLING[<--see this word, look it up] on the earth"])... no.

Coz that's WHEN His "JUDGMENT[ s ]" START.


And we can see, by the time Rev5:6 setting takes place, (aside from the fact of the "stephanous / crowns" being worn, which I mentioned in an earlier post) a "searching judgment" has ALREADY taken place, as indicated by the "WAS FOUND" [Grk] word used in 5:4... same as was used regarding Paul when he had been called to stand before their human "BEMA" in the latter chpts of Acts.

No, bare in mind, You got caught cherry picking a Church Father's Statement and Disciple of Polycarp, Disciple of John and tried to not mention what he truly said:
There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

He said, the Tribulation is the LAST CONTEST the Righteous will Overcome!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I see you completely ignored this portion of his statement:

There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

He said, the Tribulation is the LAST CONTEST the Righteous will Overcome!

Yeah... I guess you did not READ my post explaining that the ppl who come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" are CALLED "the RIGHTEOUS" (Matt25:31-34,46, Matt13:24-50, for a cpl examples)--and are never called "the Church [WHICH IS HIS BODY]"--which I'm saying Irenaeus is also DISTINGUISHING, but that hasty readers with pre-conceived notions do not detect in his paragraph... but that I'm pointing out, because this is also what we "Pre-Tribbers" (not Abs tho ) are ALSO continually pointing out in the text of Scripture.



[the Trib yrs being "the last contest of THE RIGHTEOUS"]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"...and they that TURN MANY TO RIGHTEOUSNESS..." is speaking of the (future) Trib yrs, per context, Daniel 12:1-4,[6-7,11,12]--this is what "the WISE" (of Israel, at that time) will be DOING... "the WISE WILL UNDERSTAND" (at that future time-period), v.10




[it is THEY who will be DOING the "INVITING" (of the "guests [plural]") TO "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER [the earthly MK age]," aka "the MEAL [G347]"]


...so yeah, many ppl will be coming to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN those Trib yrs! (FOLLOWING "our Rapture")

 

[Heaven_Bound]

That is NOT what he said. He first corrected the false doctrine of pre-trib rapture [catching/snatch] away, and then explained we do go through the Tribulation.

Dude, nice try!

But not even close and look at how you ramble on to explain the lie

 

[Transmogrified]

Hi...I'm Gary - I was going to read all the previous posts on this subject but then I realized there were over 100 pages, so what I would like to say might have already been said at some point.
Although we don't know the day nor the hour there is a sequence of events, in the sense that one thing has to happen before another thing happens.

So when it says in 1 Thess. 4:16 that '....For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...."
So looking closely at this we can see that there is an event that must happen before we are caught up or raptured. So it would be wrong to say 'the rapture can happen at any time, there is nothing that has to happen first." because clearly the dead in Christ must rise first before the living are caught up.

So what does it mean that the dead in Christ must rise first? For them to rise, or be 'caught up' first, what does that mean? It means before they can rise or be raptured, there must be a resurrection from the dead.
So the living saints of course will not need to be resurrected before they rise, because they are still alive, but for the dead in Christ to rise, they must first be physically resurrected.

Paul says '...we shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all (both dead and living) be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump.

There are five things to note in the mystery Paul was revealing to us.
1) We shall not all sleep (There will be some believers that will be alive when this happens)
2) We shall all be changed (All the dead believers and the living believers will be changed)
3) In a moment (All believers, dead and alive will be changed (get glorified bodies) at the same time, in a moment)
4) In the twinkling of an eye (Making it clear that the time involved for all believers to receive their glorified bodies does not happen over an extended period of time, but in the twinkling of an eye)
5) At the last trump (making it known these events will not take place until the last trumpet sounds)
Seeing the resurrection of the dead in Christ must take place before the rapture, we know there can be no rapture before the resurrection. Its not that we know the day nor the hour, but we know that one specific event (the resurrection) must take place before the rapture (catching away) can occur.
So when does the scripture say the believers will be resurrected? Lets look at 4 verses in John 6 to see not only when this resurrection will happen, but who will be included in this resurrection.

John 6:39 -"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
1) John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
2) John 6:44 -"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
3) John 6:54 -"Whoso eats my flesh and drinks my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
The first reference says that all whom God has given to Christ he will raise them up (or resurrect) them at the last day.
So lets look seriously at the first reference....it says ALL those who God has given to Christ will be raised at the last day. Remember Paul used the same words when he said we shall ALL be changed in a moment. So ALL does not mean PART of the believers will be resurrected at one time and then the other PART resurrected at the last day, it means ALL those who God gave to Christ will be resurrected in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump.

So the thought that nothing has to happen before the rapture, or it could happen at any time is wrong...there must FIRST be a resurrection of the saints, and if that resurrection does not happen until the last day, then it would be impossible to have a rapture before the last day.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Hi...I'm Gary - I was going to read all the previous posts on this subject but then I realized there were over 100 pages, so what I would like to say might have already been said at some point.
Although we don't know the day nor the hour there is a sequence of events, in the sense that one thing has to happen before another thing happens.

So when it says in 1 Thess. 4:16 that '....For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds...."
So looking closely at this we can see that there is an event that must happen before we are caught up or raptured. So it would be wrong to say 'the rapture can happen at any time, there is nothing that has to happen first." because clearly the dead in Christ must rise first before the living are caught up.

So what does it mean that the dead in Christ must rise first? For them to rise, or be 'caught up' first, what does that mean? It means before they can rise or be raptured, there must be a resurrection from the dead.
So the living saints of course will not need to be resurrected before they rise, because they are still alive, but for the dead in Christ to rise, they must first be physically resurrected.

Paul says '...we shall not all sleep, (die) but we shall all (both dead and living) be changed, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the Last Trump.

There are five things to note in the mystery Paul was revealing to us.
1) We shall not all sleep (There will be some believers that will be alive when this happens)
2) We shall all be changed (All the dead believers and the living believers will be changed)
3) In a moment (All believers, dead and alive will be changed (get glorified bodies) at the same time, in a moment)
4) In the twinkling of an eye (Making it clear that the time involved for all believers to receive their glorified bodies does not happen over an extended period of time, but in the twinkling of an eye)
5) At the last trump (making it known these events will not take place until the last trumpet sounds)
Seeing the resurrection of the dead in Christ must take place before the rapture, we know there can be no rapture before the resurrection. Its not that we know the day nor the hour, but we know that one specific event (the resurrection) must take place before the rapture (catching away) can occur.
So when does the scripture say the believers will be resurrected? Lets look at 4 verses in John 6 to see not only when this resurrection will happen, but who will be included in this resurrection.

John 6:39 -"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
1) John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
2) John 6:44 -"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
3) John 6:54 -"Whoso eats my flesh and drinks my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
The first reference says that all whom God has given to Christ he will raise them up (or resurrect) them at the last day.
So lets look seriously at the first reference....it says ALL those who God has given to Christ will be raised at the last day. Remember Paul used the same words when he said we shall ALL be changed in a moment. So ALL does not mean PART of the believers will be resurrected at one time and then the other PART resurrected at the last day, it means ALL those who God gave to Christ will be resurrected in a moment, in a twinkle of an eye, at the last trump.

So the thought that nothing has to happen before the rapture, or it could happen at any time is wrong...there must FIRST be a resurrection of the saints, and if that resurrection does not happen until the last day, then it would be impossible to have a rapture before the last day.

There is a continuation of Armageddon and then 1,000 year reign. So, the Last Day would not be before the Tribulation. It would be between the Tribulation End and beginning of Armageddon.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"...and they that TURN MANY TO RIGHTEOUSNESS..." is speaking of the (future) Trib yrs, per context, Daniel 12:1-4,[6-7,11,12]--this is what "the WISE" (of Israel, at that time) will be DOING... "the WISE WILL UNDERSTAND" (at that future time-period), v.10

And speaking of Daniel 12:1-4 [not v.13], this is NOT speaking of a "physical / bodily resurrection from having been physically / bodily DEAD"... Rather, this passage corresponds with a number of other related passages speaking of "Israel" coming up out of the graveyard of nations WHERE SCATTERED [/SOWN... unto the earth]:

--Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 (note the word "graves"... this is not "6 ft under," so to speak, but rather, is said with regard to their saying "our hope is cut off" [i.e. pertains to them being SCATTERED among the nations and then being brought back to the LAND, vv.20-23 or thereabouts--see these verses!])

--Hosea 5:14-6:3 ("after TWO DAYS"... and "IN the THIRD DAY"[aka "the LAST DAY"--see also Acts 3:21!; aka the SEVENTH day / sabbatismos of Heb4:9--see also Ex17:13,17 "It [the sabbath / 7th day] is a SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever"])

--Isaiah 26:15-21, v.19 esp

--Romans 11:15,[25,27<--Isa27:9,12-13 / Dan9:24-27, etc] - "...what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD"

--Daniel 12:1-4

--John 6:39 [distinct from v.40]--"the LAST DAY" (not a singular 24-hr day... though certain aspects will occur such)

--more... but enough for the avg reader to handle in one post... = )


[all that regarding ISRAEL coming up out of the graveyard of NATIONS, where SCATTERED... not in the dirt/tombs / physically dead.. NO]

 

[Heaven_Bound]

There is a continuation of Armageddon and then 1,000 year reign. So, the Last Day would not be before the Tribulation. It would be between the Tribulation End and beginning of Armageddon.

Matthew 24 explains this Last Day at the End of Tribulation and beginning of Armageddon

29 But immediately after the affliction of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heavens, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and all the tribes of the land shall wail, and shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great trumpet, and they shall gather his elect from the four winds from the ends of the s heavens to the ends of them.

And Revelation explains in Chapter 16:15 and 16

 

[Heaven_Bound]

And speaking of Daniel 12:1-4 [not v.13], this is NOT speaking of a "physical / bodily resurrection from having been physically / bodily DEAD"... Rather, this passage corresponds with a number of other related passages speaking of "Israel" coming up out of the graveyard of nations WHERE SCATTERED [/SOWN... unto the earth]:

--Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23 (note the word "graves"... this is not "6 ft under," so to speak, but rather, is said with regard to their saying "our hope is cut off" [i.e. pertains to them being SCATTERED among the nations and then being brought back to the LAND, vv.20-23 or thereabouts--see these verses!])

--Hosea 5:14-6:3 ("after TWO DAYS"... and "IN the THIRD DAY"[aka "the LAST DAY"--see also Acts 3:21!; aka the SEVENTH day / sabbatismos of Heb4:9--see also Ex17:13,17 "It [the sabbath / 7th day] is a SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever"])

--Isaiah 26:15-21, v.19 esp

--Romans 11:15,[25,27<--Isa27:9,12-13 / Dan9:24-27, etc] - "...what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD"

--Daniel 12:1-4

--John 6:39 [distinct from v.40]

--more... but enough for the avg reader to handle in one post... = )


[all that regarding ISRAEL coming up out of the graveyard of NATIONS, where SCATTERED... not in the dirt/tombs]

It's a good thing we have Polycarp telling us All Righteousness, like us, are considered the Elect!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ the above post (my Post #2809) was addressed to yours, here

That is NOT what he said. He first corrected the false doctrine of pre-trib rapture [catching/snatch] away, and then explained we do go through the Tribulation.
Dude, nice try!
But not even close and look at how you ramble on to explain the lie

[a cpl posts intervened since then...lol]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

It's a good thing we have Polycarp telling us All Righteousness, like us, are considered the Elect!

You don't think we're called "the elect ANGELS," do you??

If not, why don't you think so?

 

[Heaven_Bound]

You don't think we're called "the elect ANGELS," do you??

31 And he shall send his angels with a great trumpet, and they shall gather his elect from the four winds and from the ends of the heavens to the ends of them.

The ANGELS gather the ELECT:

Chapter 1. Praise of the Philippians
I have greatly rejoiced with you in our Lord Jesus Christ, because you have followed the example of true love [as displayed by God], and have accompanied, as became you, those who were bound in chains, the fitting ornaments of saints, and which are indeed the diadems of the true elect of God and our Lord;

Anyone Saved according to Polycarp is the ELECT

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

John 6:39 -"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."
1) John 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

"[that] all THAT [/ WHICH]" (v.39) and "all WHO [/ 'every one which,' in some versions]" (v.40) are not speaking of identical things, though they are related (and occur in that same future time-period, aka "in the LAST DAY" [which does not consist merely of "a singular 24-hr day" by the way]):


--"[that] all THAT" (v.39) refers to the THINGS (like His "kingdom" and "throne" and "rule/governance" and so forth [think: Acts 3:21, etc... Acts 17:31nasb...]);

--"all WHO" (v.40) refers to PEOPLE (pertaining to... "believeth" on Him... which is what PEOPLE [can] do)

 

[Heaven_Bound]

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, so believe as you do. I am just showing WE DO HAVE PROOF the Church Fathers and Disciples of the Apostle John taught we are the ELECT and we will go through the Tribulation. One thing is for certain, IF, we are alive at the time of Tribulation, we will know if the Church Fathers and Apostle John and Christ were Truthful or not...which I believe They Are!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

31 And he shall send his angels with a great trumpet, and they shall gather his elect from the four winds and from the ends of the heavens to the ends of them.

Which passage ^ (as I've said) corresponds with Isaiah 27:12-13,9[<--Romans 11:27; Daniel 9:24-27 the prophecy re: "thy [Daniel's] people"... same as in my Post #2809 ; ) ]


THEY will be gathered (as the text says) "ONE BY ONE"... whereas WE will be snatched up [G726] "AS ONE"... completely distinct!

 

[cv5]

Look at what Polycarp states about the Coming of Christ, this is from 100 A.D.

Chapter 2. An exhortation to virtue
Wherefore, girding up your loins, 1 Peter 1:13; Ephesians 6:14 serve the Lord in fear and truth, as those who have forsaken the vain, empty talk and error of the multitude, and believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory, 1 Peter 1:21 and a throne at His right hand. To Him all things 1 Peter 3:22; Philippians 2:10 in heaven and on earth are subject. Him every spirit serves. He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 17:31

He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 17:31

No mention of pre-trib Rapture, just when He comes it is as JUDGE!!

The Church Fathers knew the pre-trib rapture was FALSE and did not teach it!

Bush league analysis. The Rapture is not referenced in every NT passage. The ones that do are conclusive.

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum is absolutely correct, with NO errors that I can see, in his Rapture teaching video I earlier posted. Furthermore, the Rapture pattern fits the Jewish wedding ritual and Feast of Trumpets to perfection. Which is certainly to be expected.

Aberrant commentators are easily debunked. And are by and large NOT JEWISH...! Thus their confusion in the matter.

 

[Friend]

What does it mean when scripture states that the kingdom is near or 'at hand' ?Matthew 4:17,Matthew 6:10 ?

Here's a little be more dimension that can be added.​

When Jesus was offered Satan Kingdom (Like John) He immediately started preaching that a kingdom of heaven was available/"at hand"​

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

But when asked by Pontius Pilate Jesus stated that His Kingdom was not of this world.​

Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

The seventh trumpet sounds when all who were destined to be a part of the kingdom of heaven are in attendance: Denoted by the ark/covenant arriving in the temple: Rev 11:19

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”

Then All Power in heaven is consolidated first, with Satan permanently thrown out, never to accuse the brethren again.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

When hereafter (almost there and a half years later) we come to take possession of our kingdom of earth.

Mat 13:41-43 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
​

​

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That is NOT what he said. He first corrected the false doctrine of pre-trib rapture [catching/snatch] away,

How could he have been doing that if it didn't exist in anyone's mind prior to the last "500 years," according to what you said in a recent post?

At least try to be consistent within your own fairy tale. = D

and then explained we do go through the Tribulation.

Not what I read him to be saying.

But I explained that already.

Dude, nice try!

But not even close and look at how you ramble on to explain the lie

You mean, "the lie" that did not exist until something like "500 years ago" (according to what you said earlier), so that Irenaeus could not possibly have even been addressing such a "lie" coz no one had fathomed it yet (till 500 years ago)?... but somehow you have him covering that subject?

[ ♫ doo-doo-doo-doo]