The entire OP is the answer to your question. The conclusion, which answers your question, is inescapable.
Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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Look, it is the prevailing belief in the Christian world that the body turns to dust in the grave, but the disembodied "spirit" or "soul" or whatever they want to call the "transparent, ghostly, vaporous, bodiless, dead guy resembling entity" either enters into heaven or goes burning in hell, and the purpose of the Resurrection is for God to provide new bodies for these "spirits" or "souls" to inhabit for eternity.
I should know, I used to be among the majority who believed this nonsense. The purpose of the Resurrection is to BRING BACK TO LIFE the Soul that has died aka "ceased to exist" when God's Spirit returned to Him and their Body returned to dust at the time of their death. How do we know Souls cease to exist at death? Because the Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life aka Spirit of Life - Genesis 2:7 KJV.
Luke 16:22-23
One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.
And the rich man also died and was buried.
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
The Lord Jesus Christ says they died = their physical bodies went to the grave/earth.
Their soul went to the afterlife which is Hades for the wicked(rich man) and Paradise for the saved (Abraham).
Angels do not touch or carry dead bodies anywhere.
Angels are spirit and they do escort the souls of the righteous.
The dead are without a body and they don't get one until the resurrection. Paul plainly says the dead are "naked" and "unclothed" which is that intermediate state between wearing our "earthly house" and wearing the new "tabernacle eternal in the heavens".
Can you see yet how your insistence that dead folks possess a body before the resurrection contradicts Scripture? THE DEAD ARE NAKED AND UNCLOTHED, PER 2 CORINTHIANS 5 BUT Y0U ARE ARGUING THEY AREN'T NAKED AND UNCLOTHED.
Bro, it ain't me that's got them stepping and fetching - it's their inconsistent, contradictory ideas about the three guys in Luke 16 having bodies although the rest of Scripture says that don't happen til the resurrection.
No, it is the "immoral soul" crowd who lacks Holy Spirit discernment on this issue - Jesus plainly says the three dead guys in Luke 16 have BODY PARTS which means they have BODIES, which should make clear to anyone who doesn't believe the Serpent's very first lie in Eden that Jesus is speaking in a parable.
"All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables (including the Rich Man and Lazarus), and without a parable spake He not unto them." -- Matthew 13:34 KJV
There you go again with your inconsistent theology. You claim Luke 16 is a LITERAL story but in the same breath you confess "angels don't carry dead bodies" which means that's SYMBOLIC.
I've got news for you: Abraham's bosom is symbolic. The dead in possession of bodies is symbolic. Their speech between one another, which is impossible in the "silence" of the grave to which they all have descended, is symbolic. The ability of a drop of water to cool off a man completely engulfed in flame is symbolic. The ability to speak that is present in a dude completely engulfed in flame is symbolic. The phrase "Moses and the Prophets" is symbolic for the "Word of God" which first five books were written by Moses and the rest by the Prophets.
The whole thing is symbolic, but you go on and keep insisting it's a literal story, bro. There are PLENTY of people reading these threads and waking up to the truth, which is why I post it, because God's Word never returns unto Him void, praise God.
The Angels do not carry dead bodies. The Angels carried the soul of Lazarus to be with Abraham's soul in Paradise.
Abraham and Lazarus had both died and their dead bodies were buried in the earth, their souls went on to Paradise.
Angels do not touch or carry dead bodies - only the souls of the Righteous, just as the Lord said.
Do you really believe that is truth? All I see is a conclusion from conjecture so that does not tell us souls cease to exist. Anyway that would be impossible as ETERNAL LIFE DOES NOT HAVE A PERIOD OF DEATH IN THE MIDDLE OF IT. ETERNAL LIFE DOES NOT START OUT FROM DEATH. IT IS GIVEN WHILE WE HAVE LIFE ALREADY. Can you say the 'sons of God' didn't have a soul before being put in the flesh? How? They didn't have 'earthy' bodies when watching the earth being created that's for sure. But to return to God means living Him in the first place, no getting around that.
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
As the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same. These would be the only 'children' introduced to fit the bill.
WHY did death come about? SIN. Christ takes away OUR SIN, correct? So why would we REMAIN BOUND TO A 'sleep/death' when we have NO SIN? How is it possible to become bound to something not able to bind you in the first place?
You are not saying are you, that ADAMS disobedience that causes the 'sleep/death' until a last day, has remained in effect (by being MORE POWERFUL in action and consequence?)
than the OBEDIENCE of Christ on the cross did? WHAT effect did the work of Christ on the cross have OVER the effects of DEATH once He had risen? Didn't we just 'pass through' after that?
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 Saying, I will declare Thy name unto My brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given Me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Its interesting how you say phoneman is calling jesus a liar and that he believes Jesus is teaching pagan myths. Do you believe YOU are Jesus? because it is YOU and othes like you he is disagreeing with; He is calling out false teaching using scripture and intelligent reasoning against false doctrine. Tell me this? If people go straight to heaven or hell what is the point of Christs second coming? If you you can go straight to heaven why does the Bible say you receive your incorruptible body at Christs coming? What would you even need it for if you got into the wedding already without having to wear your wedding clothes?How does a dead body sleep if it hasnt the activity of the persons mind to cause it to do so? Its complete and utter nonsense — the majority of you believe a lie — a lie the protestants got from the Catholics who got it from the Pagans who got it from Satan the father of lies — whose first temptation to mankind was “You shall not surely die. “ unfortunately this is what the majority of people believe — even so called Christians.
What an absurd question to ask— essentially you are saying to phoneman do you believe the Truth —really? What you quoted ( phonemans) is straight forward truth and your misuse of scriptures simply doesnt hold a candle to it.
Free grace2 i suggest starting at the beginning of the thread instead of asking a question at the end that could be easily answered by reading from the beginning. And btw just because the majority believe something doesnt mean its true. Unbelievers who believe in ‘a’ god also believe like many Christians that they circumvent the judgment, are immortal just like God even though scripture says only God is immortal and that they go straight to either heaven or hell when they die— making Christs Second Coming a moot point.
Wow. Just wow you said to phoneman
“Jesus doesn’t contradict scripture it’s just that you don’t understand what he is saying”
Both you and david tree are always equating Jesus words with YOUR own words. You two are beyond arrogant .
Neither of you can hold a candle to his arguments. its like comparing Mt Killamanjato to an ant hill . He consistently blows you all out of the water. And that includes my arguments— and I am in complete agreement with him.
You don't understand what you are reading.
Celldude is teaching that Jesus tells fairy tales and pagan lies, and Celldude is teaching that God annihilates every living soul:
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Jesus died (Completely dead) and rose again (praise God rose from the dead), ever so (houtō - in this way) in the same way those that are dead (completely dead) will God bring to life (raise from the dead) by Jesus.
What a wonderful promise. Amen
Jesus died (Completely dead) and rose again (praise God rose from the dead), ever so (houtō - in this way) in the same way those that are dead (completely dead) will God bring to life (raise from the dead) by Jesus.
What a wonderful promise. Amen
read the word soul in the bible there are a lot of cases so it will take a long time and the verses that use life or person is sometimes used instead of soul.
It does not teach a living thing outside of the body.
when you separate the life from the body you are doing what spiritualism teaches and paganism has invented.
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
To say this is only talking about the physical body is presumption and without any proof.
If the dead lion is in heaven as a spirit it would be better then the living dog. but Verse 4 states the lion is worse then the living dog.
It does not teach a living thing outside of the body.
when you separate the life from the body you are doing what spiritualism teaches and paganism has invented.
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
To say this is only talking about the physical body is presumption and without any proof.
If the dead lion is in heaven as a spirit it would be better then the living dog. but Verse 4 states the lion is worse then the living dog.
I agree, start with the first page. Phoneman’s op was debunked early on in the first page. That’s all people can hope to get out of this thread.
I digress!
Do I detect that you are beginning to hold "Phoneman" ("blind teacher of the blind") in awe?
Have you started the PM's yet?
"Mt Killamanjato"??? Never heard of that one, I think you mean "Mount Kilimanjaro."
Christians are in the same mistake the Jews were in when Jesus first came.
They thought He was going to kill everyone for them. He came to announce His Kingdom.
When He comes next it will be to MANIFEST His kingdom here on earth. The ancient prayer will be answered "Father Thy kingdom come Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven"
Laura798
On both Posts 79 and 80 you gave 'THUMBS DOWN'? Both of those posts are SCRIPTURE. Are you meaning to say you don't like the words of GOD?
Here is a copy of Post 79
Apparently coming back in for another dance...
2Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Post 80
1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
You DISLIKE both of those CORRECT?
On both Posts 79 and 80 you gave 'THUMBS DOWN'? Both of those posts are SCRIPTURE. Are you meaning to say you don't like the words of GOD?
Here is a copy of Post 79
Apparently coming back in for another dance...
2Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Post 80
1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
You DISLIKE both of those CORRECT?
Jesus said to the thief who died with Him "truly I say unto you today you will be with Me in paradise"