Soul sleep is a false doctrine

[DavidTree]

I'm not sure what you're wanting me to see exactly. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 still says that God brings with Jesus "those who are asleep" when He descends from Heaven. That isn't changing any time soon. Please take another prayerful look at 1 Thessalonians 4 and decide if you agree with Paul or not. @ewq1938 @DavidTree @Nehemiah6

The term "asleep" only pertains to the dead bodies of those who died in Christ.
Their souls are in Heaven with Christ = "God will bring with Him those who sleep/died in Jesus"
Christ is in Heaven = the Saints are in Heaven = there are NO Dead bodies in Heaven = there are NO Dead souls in Heaven.

But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. Mark 12:27

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

You cannot kill Eternal Life = Eternal Life never dies = there are no dead Saints in Heaven, only Living Souls of those who died on earth.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

ALL Living Souls are those who died in Christ when they were on earth = these are who Jesus brings with Him at His Coming.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep/died, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep/died in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who are asleep/died.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake(rise/resurrection), some to everlasting life,

Only the dead bodies/bones of the Saints are "sleeping" in the earth, their souls are in Heaven with Jesus.

 

[Blain]

The term "asleep" only pertains to the dead bodies of those who died in Christ.
Their souls are in Heaven with Christ = "God will bring with Him those who sleep/died in Jesus"
Christ is in Heaven = the Saints are in Heaven = there are NO Dead bodies in Heaven = there are NO Dead souls in Heaven.

But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. Mark 12:27

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

You cannot kill Eternal Life = Eternal Life never dies = there are no dead Saints in Heaven, only Living Souls of those who died on earth.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

ALL Living Souls are those who died in Christ when they were on earth = these are who Jesus brings with Him at His Coming.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep/died, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep/died in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who are asleep/died.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake(rise/resurrection), some to everlasting life,

Only the dead bodies/bones of the Saints are "sleeping" in the earth, their souls are in Heaven with Jesus.

Actually I wouldn't say they are in heaven I think it is more like Abrahams bosom which is like the hebrew sheol it's a place of comfort a haven if you will even hades is not hell but rather it is simply the place of the dead which is why hades and hell are both spoken of but do not mean the same thing

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not sure what you're wanting me to see exactly. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 still says that God brings with Jesus "those who are asleep" when He descends from Heaven.

That means "those who are dead". The whole passage is about the dead coming back to life like Christ did.

 

[Blain]

Maybe I am being ignorant but why would our bodies have any need to be resurrected if we who are aslep in that day are already with him? This flesh is corrupt and if we would need a new body to ascend to heaven why would we be there to begin with in the first place?

 

[DavidTree]

Actually I wouldn't say they are in heaven I think it is more like Abrahams bosom which is like the hebrew sheol it's a place of comfort a haven if you will even hades is not hell but rather it is simply the place of the dead which is why hades and hell are both spoken of but do not mean the same thing

Luke 16:19-31 was BEFORE Christ died and rose from the dead. Jesus opened Heaven for the all Saints with His Blood.

Revelation 6:9-11
And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Revelation 7:9-15
After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue,
standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”
And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”
Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”
“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”
So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
For this reason,
they are before the throne of God
and serve Him day and night in His temple;

 

[DavidTree]

Maybe I am being ignorant but why would our bodies have any need to be resurrected if we who are aslep in that day are already with him? This flesh is corrupt and if we would need a new body to ascend to heaven why would we be there to begin with in the first place?

Read 1 Corinthians chapter 15

 

[Nehemiah6]

Maybe I am being ignorant but why would our bodies have any need to be resurrected if we who are aslep in that day are already with him? This flesh is corrupt and if we would need a new body to ascend to heaven why would we be there to begin with in the first place?

1. The saints are not asleep. They are called "a cloud of witnesses" (Heb 12:1) and witnesses are wide awake and alert.

2. When the saints die, their souls and spirits go to Heaven to be with Christ (Acts 7)

3. But God has promised to give all of them resurrected and glorified bodies (to which the souls and spirits are united).

4. These bodies are different from our present bodies in that they are (1) incorruptible, (2) immortal, (3) spiritual, and (4) glorified. They are free from all earthly limitations.

As noted in post #46, kindly read and carefully study 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[John146]

Actually I wouldn't say they are in heaven I think it is more like Abrahams bosom which is like the hebrew sheol it's a place of comfort a haven if you will even hades is not hell but rather it is simply the place of the dead which is why hades and hell are both spoken of but do not mean the same thing

Paul said it would be better for him to die and be with Christ, not Abraham’s bosom.

 

[Blain]

Paul said it would be better for him to die and be with Christ, not Abraham’s bosom.

I suppose it could be that before Christ that was the resting place of the dead but in Christ we go to him in heaven. I will have to listen to 1 corinthians to get a better understanding of what the difference is between a spirit and soul because this still escapes me.

 

[VARob]

Foolishness.

NO part of a human being is immortal yet. The concept of the immortal soul came from the Greeks. The Jews first succumbed to that erroneous belief during the time of Christ, which is why Jesus told the parable the way he did in Luke 16:19ff. Then Christianity bought into it. The devil is laughing his butt off. He's convinced the majority of Christians to think they don't really die, which is exactly what he wants them to think (Gen 3:4). Death is the END of life, not the gateway to the afterlife. The Bible clearly states that death is an enemy (1 Cor 15:26). If when people died they went to be with Jesus, death would not be an enemy at all, but a welcome event.

Our hope is in the return of Christ. THEN is when the dead in Christ will be raised from the dead, and living Christians changed (1 Cor 15:52-53; 1 Thes 4:16-17). THEN is when the saying will be brought to pass "Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? " (1 Cor 15:54-55). Until that day comes, people who have died remain dead.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

THEN is when the dead in Christ shall be made alive.

The words in the Bible translated "eternal life" are zōē aiōnios and they do not mean "eternal life." They mean "life age" or "life in the age". We are promised life in the age to come (the millennial kingdom followed by the everlasting kingdom.) When a person gets born again he does not immediately have everlasting life, but he is promised everlasting life. Our everlasting life will commence when the Lord Jesus returns and either raises us from the dead (if we have died), or changes us (if we're alive). THEN is when we will become immortal, not before.

I realize most of you are convinced in what you believe, and will not change. My "friend" (his words) DavidTree has already said my beliefs are heretical and accused me 6-8 times of denying the Lord's words. That's ok.. It comes with the territory of speaking the truth.

Carry on, I'm bowing out. God bless you all.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I see what your saying.

Where are our souls then.

They are not corruptible,right?

All who have breathed,have NOT the Spirit of God?


Im sorry maybe it's best if I don't take part in this discussion as it has nothing to do with the doctrine of the word.


Thanks for all who have tried to explain🤗

where did mankind’s spirit come from before Christ ?

mans spirit came from Gods spirit in the beginning it’s what made man alive.

“Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:”
‭‭Isaiah 42:5

mans original spirit that we inherited from Adam is corrupted and needs saving. That’s why we’re “ born again” of the spirit in the New Testament God is saving our living soul , through saving our spirit from death and promising us eternal bodies made for heaven

Everyone’s body gets old and falls apart in time because it’s Made of temporal earthly matter with no life but the spirit inside of us isn’t temporal it came from God

He first made our body , the what brought us to life is when he breathed into man the living spirit

“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so Christ showed us this

“And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Man became a living soul when God breathed living spirit into his body but in Christ he’s showing us a regeneration of our living spirit. The cleansing of the word , and renewing of the mind which regenerates us within by faith a new person bekng created beginning internally with thier belief

we’re going to shed our fleshly body made for this earth and have one made for the spiritual kingdom promised by Jesus

 

[Nehemiah6]

NO part of a human being is immortal yet. The concept of the immortal soul came from the Greeks.

Quite the opposite. The Greeks probably learned this from the Hebrews. And the term "immortal" does not apply to souls. Mortality and immortality are strictly about the human body. Hence "mortality rates".

But souls and spirits are imperishable, therefore we read about the OT saints in Sheol/Hades (which is in "the heart of the earth", or "the lower parts of the earth") after they died. Here is "The writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick, and was recovered of his sickness":
I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of [Sheol]: I am deprived of the residue of my years. (Isaiah 38:10 KJV) [Note: the KJV translators should not have substituted "the grave" for Sheol, which has led to a lot of confusion]
I said, “In the prime of my life I shall go to the gates of Sheol; I am deprived of the remainder of my years.” (Isaiah 38:10 NKJV)
אֲנִ֣י אָמַ֗רְתִּי בִּדְמִ֥י יָמַ֛י אֵלֵ֖כָה בְּשַׁעֲרֵ֣י שְׁאֹ֑ול פֻּקַּ֖דְתִּי יֶ֥תֶר שְׁנֹותָֽי

Strong's Concordance (H7585)
sheol: underworld (place to which people descend at death)
Original Word: שְׁאוֹל
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: sheol
Phonetic Spelling: (sheh-ole')
Definition: underworld (place to which people descend at death)

 

[Rondonmon]

There is no difference between the dead in Christ and those who sleep in Christ. "Sleep" is used only as a metaphor for the corpse lying in the grave. The souls and spirits are very much alive in Heaven. So when Jesus brings these souls from Heaven it is for the purpose of uniting them with their eternal, glorious, glorified, immortal, resurrected bodies.

No, the Church is brought back with Jesus because we are raptured to Heaven BEFORE the 70th week, so of course we return with Jesus at the Second Coming, that is NOT he Dead in Christ being raised even, and the living being taken via CHANGING from a person to a spirit man.

This is so simple, the Holy word tells us very, very plainly, the Dead in Christ are raised WITHOUT CORRUPTION, that means they are raised without sin flesh, and it says that two verses earlier, in verse 1 Cor. 15:50, that flesh and blood CAN NOT enter heaven, so what's being raised from these graves? The Spirit man is coming firth, not a flesh man, the flesh is THE CORRUPTION, the Spirit man is of the Lord.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption(Sin Flesh) inherit incorruption(Heaven).

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep(Die then REST in the holding place, which Jesus described as Paradise), but we shall all be changed(We who are ALIVE shed the CORRUPY Flesh meaning we DIE and our Sprit man goes to Heaven to get our Glorious bodies, just like those who are raised from the graves),

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump(Jesus ENDS the Church Age during the fall Feast of Trumps): for the trumpet shall sound(Jesus says COME UP HERE in Rev. 4:1), and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, (Why can't people comprehend this I wonder) and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So if the DEAD are raised at the exact sake time the LIVING are Changed, that means the DEAD cant already be raised. People who can't add this up stupefy me tbh !! It is like saying 1 + 1 = 3 and actually arguing that point, over, and over and over, if someone did that to you guys, wouldn't you just say, Its really not ever going to register !!

It is what it is. I only return to these type threads to make others not fall for these same sophomoric mistakes.

 

[ewq1938]

Let's please stick to the topic of soul sleep not other doctrines. There are plenty of threads about those topics.

 

[Nehemiah6]

No, the Church is brought back with Jesus because we are raptured to Heaven BEFORE the 70th week, so of course we return with Jesus at the Second Coming, that is NOT he Dead in Christ being raised even, and the living being taken via CHANGING from a person to a spirit man.

It seems that you are quite confused. So let's clarify so that others don't get confused.

1. The Church is the Body and Bride of Christ. All redeemed souls are within this Body.

2. Many have already passed on and are now in Heaven. These are "the dead in Christ" or those who "Sleep in Jesus" (just like Stephen). On earth their bodies give the appearance of sleep after death. But they are all very much alive in Heaven.

3. The Resurrection/Rapture is one event, and yes it is before Daniel's 70th week. We have a lot of opponents to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture because they simply do not understand the purpose.

4. At that time Christ brings with Him the souls and spirits of the saints who died, so that they may receive their immortal and incorruptible resurrection bodies.

5. At the same time, there will be a multitude of living saints on earth who will be transformed and raptured, and translated like Enoch. The Bible does not mention any "spirit men", but the bodies given to the saints will be "spiritual bodies" (1 Cor 15).

6. Both groups will supernaturally rise to meet the Lord in the air, and then be taken up to Heaven. Once again, a lot of people attack the fact that the saints are presently in Heaven, and will remain in Heaven after the Rapture.

7. The Marriage of the Lamb will take place in Heaven sometime during that 70th week. The Church (the Bride of Christ) will then become the Wife of the Lamb (Rev 19)

8. After that there will be the Second Coming of Christ "with power and great glory" and accompanied by all His saints and angels.(Rev 19 and other passages)

 

[Rondonmon]

It seems that you are quite confused. So let's clarify so that others don't get confused.

That would be you who seems to not be able to read simple words clearly.

No one is in Heaven, that's why they are raised up at the end, the 70th week is the end, the church is seen n Heaven before the Seals are opened. You guys are going to lose a lot because God will reward those who didn't bury their talents. And it will be even worse on those who led people down rabbit holes. SHACK CITY in Heaven.

 

[Runningman]

That means "those who are dead". The whole passage is about the dead coming back to life like Christ did.

I’ll try a different angle and see if that helps then.

The subject of the section of this chapter is about those who sleep:
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

This section is about how those who sleep will be resurrected from their grave like Jesus was when their soul is returned to their body. The soul is currently not with their body in the grave, it’s with God and He’ll bring their soul to them at their resurrection when Jesus comes:
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This just says that those who are currently living on earth will not come before those who are sleeping:
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

This is the coming of Jesus where God brings with Jesus the souls that are asleep. Jesus isn’t bringing those who sleep with Him back to the clouds. Those who sleep are brought to earth and resurrected:
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Again, Jesus is not bringing with Him those who sleep from the Earth to the clouds because they are not sleeping in the ground, they’re resurrected. The only logical possibility here is that those who sleep being brought with Jesus are sleeping souls from God.
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Runningman]

1. The saints are not asleep. They are called "a cloud of witnesses" (Heb 12:1) and witnesses are wide awake and alert.

2. When the saints die, their souls and spirits go to Heaven to be with Christ (Acts 7)

3. But God has promised to give all of them resurrected and glorified bodies (to which the souls and spirits are united).

4. These bodies are different from our present bodies in that they are (1) incorruptible, (2) immortal, (3) spiritual, and (4) glorified. They are free from all earthly limitations.

As noted in post #46, kindly read and carefully study 1 Corinthians 15.

Revelation 6:11 says they will take a rest too.

Rev. 6:11
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So a rest can be sleeping.

Matthew 11:28-30
28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke iseasy, and my burden is light.

Matt. 11:28-30 is not about physically resting from labor or the body dying. It’s about rest for the soul. The rest for the soul that Jesus spoke of is the sleep the soul can experience with God mentioned in 1 Thess. 4:14 and/or the rest deceased saints can have mentioned in Rev. 6:11.

 

[Runningman]

Revelation 14:13
13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The Holy Spirit says in Rev. 14:13 that those who die will have rest. If they are resting then they can sleep. Not having the ability to sleep is not rest. Resting always includes the possibility of sleep by all accounts.

 

[Runningman]

Is it any surprise that men and women, made in the image of God, have the ability to rest their souls? God Himself rested on the 7th day after creation and handed down the command to keep the sabbath to Israel. Why should the souls of His people not get rest, too? Turns out they do get rest.

John 11:13 says that taking a rest can mean sleep "...they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep."

See also.
Matt. 11:28-30
1 Thess. 4:14
Heb. 4:1-11
Rev. 6:11
Rev. 14:13