How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[DavidTree]

And Abraham had a conversation with the rich man. The Lord mentions as well the brothers of the rich man, and Moses and the prophets in that conversation. Parables take ordinary earthly things to represent heavenly truths. But here we have an actual narrative to which only God and Christ were privy. This is the reality of Sheol/Hades. And Christ went there and preached to the spirits in prison.

AMEN Dear Brother - AMEN

 

[VARob]

And Abraham had a conversation with the rich man. The Lord mentions as well the brothers of the rich man, and Moses and the prophets in that conversation. Parables take ordinary earthly things to represent heavenly truths. But here we have an actual narrative to which only God and Christ were privy. This is the reality of Sheol/Hades. And Christ went there and preached to the spirits in prison.

SMH

 

[Phoneman-777]

Thank you for the free laughter as it is crystal clear that Jotham told a parable just as the LORD did often.

Trees and bushes are were not created in the Image of God and God did not breath into their nostrils to become a Living Soul.

Whereas Lazarus and Abraham in fact were and still Living Souls = Amen

Sorry, but the trees in the passage are walking around and talking and making terrible life choices just like humans who are made in the image of God...so therefore, the use of their proper names -- Mr. Olive, Mr. Fig, and Mr. Bramble -- prove the passage is literal and trees can walk and talk (and make terrible life choices).

No different than claiming the use of "Lazarus" means the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a literal story.

 

[DavidTree]

Sorry, but the trees in the passage are walking around and talking and making terrible life choices just like humans who are made in the image of God...so therefore, the use of their proper names: Mr. Olive, Mr. Fig, and Mr. Bramble - prove the passage is literal and trees can walk and talk (and make terrible life choices).

No different than claiming the use of "Lazarus" means the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a literal story.

COMPLETELY Different = not even close. SEE Brother Nehemiah6 Post #5,639

 

[Phoneman-777]

I may have confused him with another member, sorry.

Probably me....I'm a die hard Annihilationist who's a Christian because he loves Jesus, not like 99% of people who are only in it for the fire insurance.

 

[VARob]

That was not the only point and for you to say that is very telling.

Denying the words of Christ

I do not deny the words of Christ.

is not safe and i urge you to hide and protect yourself in the fear God.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

You deny/add to these words:
Ecc 9:
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

You claim Solomon was ignorant, that he didn't know the truth, and you belittled him here.

 

[DavidTree]

Who[g] knows the

I do not deny the words of Christ.


You deny/add to these words:
Ecc 9:
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

You claim Solomon was ignorant, that he didn't know the truth, and you belittled him here.

Absolutely Solomon was ignorant of what was beyond the Grave and he admitted to that = Ecc 3:21

All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. Who knows the the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?

You can follow the dead Solomon and i will follow the Living Christ who's words are Spirit and LIFE.

JESUS says: The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. Matt 12:42

 

[VARob]

Who[g] knows the

Absolutely Solomon was ignorant of what was beyond the Grave and he admitted to that = Ecc 3:21

All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. Who knows the the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?

You can follow the dead Solomon and i will follow the Living Christ who's words are Spirit and LIFE.

JESUS says: The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. Matt 12:42

Solomon knew that in the grave people know nothing, have no knowledge, wisdom, thought, or emotion. As did David, Isaiah, and Ezekiel. They understood what death is. Jesus did not change that understanding. Paul stated that death is an enemy.

Christians today have done what many of the Jews did at the time of Christ: adopted the Greek idea of the immortal soul.

 

[DavidTree]

Solomon knew that in the grave people know nothing, have no knowledge, wisdom, thought, or emotion. As did David, Isaiah, and Ezekiel. They understood what death is. Jesus did not change that understanding. Paul stated that death is an enemy.

Christians today have done what many of the Jews did at the time of Christ: adopted the Greek idea of the immortal soul.

Solomon said - He did not know = Ecclesiastes 3:21

All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. Who knows the the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?

You are making two false claims:
#1. Solomon knew beyond the grave.
#2. Solomon knew more then the LORD who created him.

 

[VARob]

You are making two false claims:
#1. Solomon knew beyond the grave.
#2. Solomon knew more then the LORD who created him.

#1 Solomon, David, Isaiah, and Ezekiel knew what death is.
#2 Jesus did not change the definition of death.

 

[DavidTree]

#1 Solomon, David, Isaiah, and Ezekiel knew what death is.
#2 Jesus did not change the definition of death.

CORRECT - Physical death is death to the physical body - From dust man was created and to dust he will return.

Genesis is the Foundation of Truth for all Scripture that followed.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7

Once God breathed into man something was addded to his physical body that made man a living soul.

The LORD teaches us that the God breathed living soul of man does not die because it is not permanently attached to the physical body.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Matt 10:28

JESUS says: The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. Matt 12:42

 

[Phoneman-777]

Quite the opposite. The apostolic churches believed in the imminent coming of Christ for the saints. Let's start with James: Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. (Jas 5:8)

Since all the apostles were of one mind, Paul concurred" For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil 3:20,21)

Paul himself personally said -- in the present tense -- "from when also WE LOOK for the Saviour". And this was the apostolic teaching in all the churches. Therefore when the Thessalonians were being misled into thinking that the Day of the LORD (period of judgment) was already upon them (though it is not for the saints), he calmed them down and told them that first they must be gathered to Christ at the Resurrection/Rapture. Only after that would the Antichrist be revealed, following which the day of the LORD would come.

When Christ comes "in the clouds" that will be at His Second Coming WITH His saints and angels (Rev 1:7) These clouds are not what we see sailing in the sky. These are metaphoric clouds of saints and angels surrounding Christ in their whiteness and brilliance. See Revelation 19. From a distance (on the surface of the earth) they give the appearance of clouds. And at this time Christ comes to pour our the wrath of God. Hence the mourning, weeping, and wailing on earth.

The 24 mile Lake Pontchartrain Bridge was until recently the longest bridge in the entire world, and I crossed it many times as a kid, thinking every time that we'd never get to the end, even when the adults kept telling us "soon" "soon"......but now as an adult I drive that thing in maybe 19 minutes, depending on how many cops are out patrolling.

Perspective. When we consider the prophets spake "as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" it should come as no surprise that their use of words like "soon" and "short" should be interpreted from God's perspective rather than that of short-sighted, spiritually adolescent, impatient humanity.

 

[Phoneman-777]

COMPLETELY Different = not even close. SEE Brother Nehemiah6 Post #5,639

The "proper name" argument is weak because there is a perfectly plausible explanation as to why Jesus said "Lazarus" - it was not only a parable, but a prophecy of what the Jewish leaders would do when the real Lazarus was raised from the dead: refuse to believe.

 

[VARob]

CORRECT - Physical death is death to the physical body - From dust man was created and to dust he will return.

Yes. The MAN will return to dust. IOW, he will die.

Genesis is the Foundation of Truth for all Scripture that followed.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7

Once God breathed into man something was addded to his physical body that made man a living soul.

Agreed. Man is a living being of body and soul. Take either away, the man is dead.

The LORD teaches us that the God breathed living soul of man does not die because it is not permanently attached to the physical body.

No, the Lord does not teach us that. There is no "immortal soul" taught in the Bible.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Matt 10:28

There is nothing a man can do to you that can prevent God from raising you from the dead.

Matt 10:28b but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We are to fear God, who has the power to toss people into gehenna, destroying them.

JESUS says: The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. Matt 12:42

Yep. Jesus is certainly greater than Solomon.

 

[DavidTree]

The "proper name" argument is weak because there is a perfectly plausible explanation as to why Jesus said "Lazarus" - it was not only a parable, but a prophecy of what the Jewish leaders would do when the real Lazarus was raised from the dead: refuse to believe.

Peace Brother,
#1 Both Lazarus's were real people.
#2 The Lazarus who was alive when Christ was on earth was not a poor begger, with sores, living at the doorstep of the rich man's home.

#3 Let's say that it was a parable. As a parable the Lord taught that man has full concsiousness and awareness after death.

#4 The so-called 'parable' of Luke 16:19-31 is in perfect harmony with all of the Lord's words of the afterlife = Matt 10:28

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

#5 Jesus says there is an afterlife after physical death and that man has a soul that cannot be killed by physical death.
The spirit/soul of a man is fully aware after his physical death and he will spend eternity in one of two places;
A.) Life and Eternal Joy with God
B.) Suffering/Pain apart from God

For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.
Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. John 3:16-18

 

[DavidTree]

Yes. The MAN will return to dust. IOW, he will die.


Agreed. Man is a living being of body and soul. Take either away, the man is dead.


No, the Lord does not teach us that. There is no "immortal soul" taught in the Bible.


There is nothing a man can do to you that can prevent God from raising you from the dead.

Matt 10:28b but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We are to fear God, who has the power to toss people into gehenna, destroying them.


Yep. Jesus is certainly greater than Solomon.

Denying His words , not mine. i choose to accept and embrace His Living Word - Amen

The choice is yours. It is best to choose Life that you may Live - Amen

 

[Marilyn]

No one taught a pre-trib rapture until John Darby, and Anglican preacher, in the mid 1800s. So the teaching is relatively new. Now, being new does not necessarily mean a teaching is defunct: while God never changes, He reveals knowledge and understanding in a progressive manner. Things that we have not contemplated before, suddenly come alive to us in the scriptures. So, while the ideas are new to us, they were always established in the mind of God.

But the manner is which things are "revealed" should be examined. So let's look at the manner in which the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture came to be a Baptist staple.

Dwight Young, professor emeritus at Brandeis University of Near Eastern and Judaic Studies, personally corresponded with a friend of mine several years ago. My friend was a young lawyer ( as an aside, had George Bush Senior been elected for a second term, there is a good possibility that my friend would have been chosen as a state supreme court judge.) Dwight was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary at the same time Hal Lindsey studied there, so this is more than 50 years ago or so. They were graduate students.

Dwight said the professors were discussing Darbyism, and whether or not it was a valid theology. This graduate student, Hal Lindsey, wrote a master’s thesis on the subject of this form of dispensationalism and the rapture. He later turned that thesis into a book called The Late Great Planet Earth. Now some of you may not know about this book, but it was a runaway bestseller. It made a lot of money. According to Dwight, that is where the Baptists made the switch. They saw that there was a market for this doctrine, and they ran with it. Dwight later moved up to and was a professor of biblical studies, biblical languages at Brandeis University, from which he retired, and he was in a state of retirement when my friend met him. So, 50 years from the writing of a master's thesis, the teaching is so entrenched in the Baptist circles you would think it was the gospel.

Historically, nobody ever thought of this doctrine before Darby. But once he popularized it in the context of dispensationalism, meaning things wrap up within blocks of time, people began to embrace it because they did not have to trust the Holy Spirit. If you are going to have any measure of understanding of prophetic Scripture, the end from the beginning and where we are at this point in time, you are going to have to walk in the Spirit. He is the One who wrote the Book; He is the One who is perfectly capable of interpreting it. And the folly of logic and reason and man-made constructs, such as dispensationalism, will lead you to increasing folly, such as the rapture.

God knows the end from the beginning, and the greatest moment of the Body of Christ is in the midst of the darkness in Revelation. That darkness has no potential to blunt our display of the glory of God, the radiance of God’s glory, or to represent Him exactly. It has no ability to influence that at all. This is the time for the glory of what God has been doing, when He established the heavens and the earth for the purpose of establishing a corporate man in creation so that He might be seen in creation as who He is. He is on a path wherein not only will He show who He is in all of His glory through the corporate body, but He will bring the enemy to judgment as well.

Grace and Peace,

Aaron56

Hi Aaron,

The Lord has been building His body over the centuries and across the world. (Eph. 4: 13) It is the vehicle through which He will display His glory and wisdom in the ages to come. (Eph. 1: 20 - 23) And that will be in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

The B/C will be gathered together and then go to it eternal setting in glory. (1 Thess. 4: 15 - 17, Acts 3: 20 & 21) There they will judge the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

So it imperative that the B/C does get `caught away,` so the judgments can begin.

Marilyn.

Always look to God`s word and not be put off by discussing people.

 

[VARob]

Denying His words , not mine.

I don't deny his words. I do deny your understanding of them. The Bible does not teach that the soul is immortal.

i choose to accept and embrace His Living Word - Amen

The choice is yours. It is best to choose Life that you may Live - Amen

I have chosen life. I believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and I believe God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9). I'm very much looking forward to the return of Christ. It would be cool if it happened while I'm still alive (it may...), but if it doesn't, after I die my next conscious thought will be being raised from the dead in an immortal body, meeting the Lord Jesus face to face. There is no consciousness in death, no awareness of the passing of time, whether you're dead for five minutes or 5,000 years.

But believe what you like, David. God bless.

 

[Aaron56]

Hi Aaron,

The Lord has been building His body over the centuries and across the world. (Eph. 4: 13) It is the vehicle through which He will display His glory and wisdom in the ages to come. (Eph. 1: 20 - 23) And that will be in the third heaven. (Rev. 3: 21)

The B/C will be gathered together and then go to it eternal setting in glory. (1 Thess. 4: 15 - 17, Acts 3: 20 & 21) There they will judge the world system and fallen angels. (1 Cor. 6: 2 & 3)

So it imperative that the B/C does get `caught away,` so the judgments can begin.

Marilyn.

Always look to God`s word and not be put off by discussing people.

I'm judging angels now. The prayers of the saints are gathered in the golden censer (Chapter 8). The judgments of the saints are carried out by the angels. The people of the earth will be judged by the standard of the temple of God made with living stones: the saints who make up the dwelling place of the Living God. The temple will be juxtaposed against the harlot who curries political favor with the rulers of the earth (like many Republicans). This will be done within the purview of the saints and those who get their identity from the systems of the world.

When judgment is rendered, it is not enough to be righteous you must also appear righteous. Removing the saints ahead of the judgement renders God's judgement unrighteous because it removes the standard of the Son, the Christ of many members, against whom the men of the earth will be judged. This is elementary jurisprudence. The church is ignorant of these things because it made the gospel of God about going to heaven when you die when it is really about representing the Son in the many sons of God.

 

[Pablo2021]

Well it is a stretch to compare....but, the big difference is that John was converted into...... spirit form temporarily for the invite....... and the rapture is a permanent transition from physical world to the spirit world.

Right: it was a temporary invite that served God's purpose to show to him the things he would thereafterward write about for our benefit.

And we can also refer to Paul's testimony about "a man in Christ" having been caught up/harpazo to the third heaven:

[2Co 12:1-4 NASB20] 1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not beneficial; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ, who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows-- 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.