How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Absolutely]

Parable, as previously explained.


A vision to John telling him it will be awhile before dead believers will be raised. What are disembodied spirits going to do with white robes?.


The Bible does not say they are people.


The comma is in the wrong place.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Both Jesus and the thief died that day. Three days and three nights later, the Father raised Jesus from the dead. The thief is still dead, awaiting resurrection. Also, Jesus was talking about the millennial kingdom (paradise), not the "good side of Hades". The kingdom is not here yet.


Nobody. While Jesus was dead, he couldn't do anything. He was dead. He proclaimed his victory to the devil spirits imprisoned in Tartarus after he was resurrected by the Father.

All conjecture
All of it.

The rich man and lazarus is not a parable.
Re read it

"""A vision to John telling him it will be awhile before dead believers will be raised. What are disembodied spirits going to do with white robes?."""
A better question would be " what are they doing dead and in heaven"......under your doctrine they would be in la la land...not heaven.

"""Both Jesus and the thief died that day. Three days and three nights later, the Father raised Jesus from the dead. The thief is still dead, awaiting resurrection."""
Soul sleep attempt to twist what is said.
Your theory is conjecture based.
You make the huge jumps.
Nobody with a bible is going there with you.




But like i said earlier, if you torture the truth long enough , you can make it say most anything.

 

[Absolutely]

This is not true.


This is not true.


You're the one on the attack, David.


Agreed. I disagree with you. I do not disagree with the words of Christ.


Not in those exact words, but the pretrib rapture is there for those with eyes to see.


"Soul sleep' is a derogatory term Calvin came up with because he believed the human soul was immortal, as you do. But the Bible defines death, and in death the person is dead, all of him.


That is simply not true.


I don't deny it at all. In fact that verse disproves the idea of the immortal soul. The soul can die.

Very twisted
Very wrong

 

[VARob]

All conjecture
All of it.

The rich man and lazarus is not a parable.
Re read it

"""A vision to John telling him it will be awhile before dead believers will be raised. What are disembodied spirits going to do with white robes?."""
A better question would be " what are they doing dead and in heaven"......under your doctrine they would be in la la land...not heaven.

"""Both Jesus and the thief died that day. Three days and three nights later, the Father raised Jesus from the dead. The thief is still dead, awaiting resurrection."""
Soul sleep attempt to twist what is said.
Your theory is conjecture based.
You make the huge jumps.

Believe as you like.

Nobody with a bible is going there with you.

Many people with Bibles understand death. Many people with Bibles do not.

But like i said earlier, if you torture the truth long enough , you can make it say most anything.

Hence, the immortal soul.

 

[Absolutely]

And Abraham had a conversation with the rich man. The Lord mentions as well the brothers of the rich man, and Moses and the prophets in that conversation. Parables take ordinary earthly things to represent heavenly truths. But here we have an actual narrative to which only God and Christ were privy. This is the reality of Sheol/Hades. And Christ went there and preached to the spirits in prison.

Yes
If it were a parable, no names would be necessary.
It would read ;
"the kingdom of heaven is like unto 2 men in adjacent prisons/ territories. One was rich, the other righteous...."
...and how rude of Abraham to be dead and talking.
That needs more torture to make soul sleep valid.
Lol

 

[Absolutely]

Believe as you like.


Many people with Bibles understand death. Many people with Bibles do not.


Hence, the immortal soul.

Your bssis involves changing commas.

You are oblivious that even if you did that( which you do), you still have the thief leaving his body and going some place with Jesus..

What say you?

 

[DavidTree]

I don't deny his words. I do deny your understanding of them. The Bible does not teach that the soul is immortal.


I have chosen life. I believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and I believe God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9). I'm very much looking forward to the return of Christ. It would be cool if it happened while I'm still alive (it may...), but if it doesn't, after I die my next conscious thought will be being raised from the dead in an immortal body, meeting the Lord Jesus face to face. There is no consciousness in death, no awareness of the passing of time, whether you're dead for five minutes or 5,000 years.

But believe what you like, David. God bless.

You keep denying these words of Christ = "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul."

My words are not in the Bible but His words are = Matthew 10:28 and 1 John 5:9

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Everyone whom God has called and Christ has Sanctified has Eternal Life and that LIFE never dies and we can never be separated from the Lord Jesus Christ even when our physical bodies die - anyone who teaches otherwise is speaking in error and unbelief.

 

[VARob]

Your bssis involves changing commas.

There were no commas in the Greek. Translators put them in, frequently in places such that their theology is supported.

You are oblivious that even if you did that( which you do), you still have the thief leaving his body and going some place with Jesus..

What say you?

Both Jesus and the thief died that day and went to the grave. Three days and three nights later, the Father raised Jesus from the dead. The thief is still dead, awaiting resurrection into the kingdom.

 

[Absolutely]

There were no commas in the Greek. Translators put them in, frequently in places such that their theology is supported.


Both Jesus and the thief died that day and went to the grave. Three days and three nights later, the Father raised Jesus from the dead. The thief is still dead, awaiting resurrection into the kingdom.

Yes.
As are the martyrs under the altar in heaven and talking.
All those dead people testifying against you and you are oblivious.

 

[Absolutely]

Lazarus and Abraham are dead as doornails and will remain so until either the rapture (for Lazarus, assuming he lived past the day of Pentecost) or the resurrection of the just.

The dead talking?
How rude of them to step out of that box.

Maybe this will help
"""Luke 16:19-31 has been the focus of much controversy. Some take the story of the rich man and Lazarus to be a true, historical account of events that actually occurred; others consider it a parable or allegory.

Those who interpret this narrative as a true incident have several reasons for doing so. First, the story is never called a parable. Many other of Jesus’ stories are designated as parables, such as the sower and the seed (Luke 8:4); the prosperous farmer (Luke 12:16); the barren fig tree (Luke 13:6); and the wedding feast (Luke 14:7). Second, the story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person. Such specificity would set it apart from ordinary parables, in which the characters are not named.

Third, this particular story does not seem to fit the definition of a parable, which is a presentation of a spiritual truth using an earthly illustration. The story of the rich man and Lazarus presents spiritual truth directly, with no earthly metaphor. The setting for most of the story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables, which unfold in earthly contexts."""
( copy/pasted from gotquestions.org)

 

[1ofthem]

Lazarus and Abraham are dead as doornails and will remain so until either the rapture (for Lazarus, assuming he lived past the day of Pentecost) or the resurrection of the just.

Ok, I might as well ask....this thread is already all over the place anyhow.

How do we know that Lazarus actually died again?

Scripture says it is appointed for man to die once and then the judgment.

Also, what about the people who resurrected after the crucifixion....Did they die again, get taken or translated as Enoch did or what?

Just curious if scripture tells us what happened to those who had already died and were resurrected?

 

[VARob]

You keep denying these words of Christ = "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul."

No I don't.

My words are not in the Bible

Neither is your theology concerning the immortal soul.

but His words are = Matthew 10:28 and 1 John 5:9

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Everyone whom God has called and Christ has Sanctified has Eternal Life and that LIFE never dies and we can never be separated from the Lord Jesus Christ even when our physical bodies die - anyone who teaches otherwise is speaking in error and unbelief.

The phrase translated "eternal life" is the Greek zōē aiōnios and it means "life age" or "life in the age." It is referring to life in the age to come, meaning the millennial kingdom and beyond. Translating the phrase as "eternal life" leads to false ideas.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The church is ignorant of these things because it made the gospel of God about going to heaven when you die when it is really about representing the Son in the many sons of God.

36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of light.”

After Jesus had spoken these things, He went away and was hidden from them.

37 Although Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still did not believe in Him.

--John 12



[see 1 Thessalonians 5:5 "For you are all sons of the Light, and sons of the day..."]

 

[VARob]

Ok, I might as well ask....this thread is already all over the place anyhow.

How do we know that Lazarus actually died again?

Because nobody is in heaven yet except for the Lord Jesus Christ (John 3:13).

Scripture says it is appointed for man to die once and then the judgment.

If you're going to apply it that way, then every person who was raised from the dead in the Bible is still alive. The widow of Zarephath’s son (1 Kings 17:17–24), the Shunammite woman's son (2 Kings 4:18-37), the man raised from Elisha's grave (2 Kings 13:20-21), Tabitha (Acts 9:36-43), Eutychus (Acts 20:7-12), and many more.

Also, what about the people who resurrected after the crucifixion....Did they die again,

The Bible says nobody is in heaven yet except for Jesus Christ (John 3:13).

get taken or translated as Enoch did or what?

Enoch was translated (moved from one place to another) to prevent his premature death. He eventually died:
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch ....
Heb 1:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises ...

Just curious if scripture tells us what happened to those who had already died and were resurrected?

Again, the Bible says nobody is in heaven yet except for Christ (John 3:13).

 

[DavidTree]

No I don't.


Neither is your theology concerning the immortal soul.


The phrase translated "eternal life" is the Greek zōē aiōnios and it means "life age" or "life in the age." It is referring to life in the age to come, meaning the millennial kingdom and beyond. Translating the phrase as "eternal life" leads to false ideas.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28

When you deny the words of Christ you are calling Him a liar as you do when you say Abraham's soul is dead.

The LORD says Abraham is alive and He said this twice = Luke 16:19-31 and Matt 22:32

"I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?'
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Jesus says Abraham is living but you will deny the very words of Christ = this is sin.

 

[VARob]

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28

When you deny the words of Christ

I do not deny the words of Christ.

you are calling Him a liar as you do when you say Abraham's soul is dead.

The LORD says Abraham is alive and He said this twice = Luke 16:19-31 and Matt 22:32

"I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?'
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

Jesus says Abraham is living

Jesus said no such thing. You misunderstand/misapply what Jesus said.

but you will deny the very words of Christ = this is sin.

I do not deny the words of Christ. I understand them, you do not.

 

[DavidTree]

I do not deny the words of Christ.


Jesus said no such thing. You misunderstand/misapply what Jesus said.


I do not deny the words of Christ. I understand them, you do not.

JESUS the CHRIST says, "I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?'
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
Matt 22:32

Sin is denying what the LORD says is Truth = just as satan did in the Garden to Eve.

 

[VARob]

JESUS the CHRIST says, "I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?'
He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."
Matt 22:32

Sin is denying what the LORD says is Truth = just as satan did in the Garden to Eve.

Here is what Satan said to Eve:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

You believe him.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." - John 11:14





[see also what Jesus said in the last several words of this verse - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/11-25.htm ]

 

[1ofthem]

Because nobody is in heaven yet except for the Lord Jesus Christ (John 3:13).

Okay, I am trying to follow along with all of you guys here. Not really made up my mind completely, yet.

Wasn't this before Jesus was crucified, rose again, and ascended back to Heaven? Didn't he defeat death, hell, and the grave?

If you're going to apply it that way, then every person who was raised from the dead in the Bible is still alive. The widow of Zarephath’s son (1 Kings 17:17–24), the Shunammite woman's son (2 Kings 4:18-37), the man raised from Elisha's grave (2 Kings 13:20-21), Tabitha (Acts 9:36-43), Eutychus (Acts 20:7-12), and many more.

Yeah, I'm talking about all of them. I have not found a verse in scripture that says a man has to die twice...it says only once. So I am trying to consider what happened to them. They either died again, got translated, or (and this one may seem far-fetched) or could they still be roaming the earth? IDK...

Enoch was translated (moved from one place to another) to prevent his premature death. He eventually died:
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch ....
Heb 1:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises ...

And we also have Elijah who was recorded to have never died...so where did he go if not to heaven as the scripture says.
Enoch walked with God after he fathered Methuselah 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Thus all the days of Enoch were 365 years. Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him" reads Genesis 5:22–24. Others listed in the Genesis 5 genealogy are clearly said to have died. But Enoch simply "was not, for God took him." No explanation for why he did not die is given.

We read of Elijah in 2 Kings 2:11, "And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." Elijah had warned Elisha, who he was walking with, that he may be taken to heaven. And he was. Elijah, one of God's most powerful prophets, did not die but was simply taken to heaven. Malachi 4:5–6 speaks of his return.

 

[DavidTree]

Here is what Satan said to Eve:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

You believe him.

Believe what God says = "And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil;
for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” Gen ch2

Adam and Eve did not physically drop dead the very day they ate the forbidden fruit.

Either God lied or some other form of Death took place the very day and moment the forbidden fruit entered in to them.

Which is it?