Saved by Water

[KelbyofGod]

Time for me to move on.

Likewise it is time for me to get some sleep.

I know this isn't much of a comfort but I did suggest not getting distracted by that comment about repentance. It would only derail a train of thought if allowed to do so.

meanwhile I still genuinely thank you for continuing to discuss.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

Matthew
3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Yep. The last part of the verse works with the first. John was sent to establish water baptism (which Jesus continued in his ministry, which also continued after his death & resurrection at his command)... and Jesus established Spirit Baptism (which Jesus ONLY can and does do) Two distinctly different baptisms. One of water, one of the Spirit.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[justbyfaith]

it is a work ... you are transforming it into a work of righteousness. i.e. something we must do to be saved .... very wrong and disproved by scripture and 2, 000 years of church history.

Is confessing the Lord Jesus with your mouth a work of righteousness, also? For it is something that we must do to be saved.

 

[Wansvic]

Acts
20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Why not provide actual scripture that speaks directly to when remission of sin takes place? Deflection does nothing to bolster your case.

 

[justbyfaith]

See article on Acts 22:16 - https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/03/acts-2216-baptism-essential-for.html

That's okay I'll pass.

I don't have any need for Acts 22:16 to not mean what it says...

Why then would I go to a false teacher on the matter so that he can tell me what my itching ears might want to hear if I did have such a need?

 

[justbyfaith]

Ridiculous. They HAVE been, but you keep your eyes closed so as to not see them.

For example, ALL the verses that show the Father speaking TO the Son and Gen 1:26 where God says "let US...".

You have no excuse for your "oneness" theory.

I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, are distinct from one another.

Therefore there is no problem in my theology over the fact that God refers to Himself as "Us" or "We"

(I said this before in another thread...either you did not see that or else you are just trying to make me work).

 

[Wansvic]

Matthew
3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

Yes. Both are necessary. One did not replace the other.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, and a symbol. No symbol saves.

I disagree with you, there. And, I don't think that you have any scripture to back up your claim.

 

[justbyfaith]

v.13 is Peter's narrative of what Cornelius told him. v.14 is the result of believing the message that Peter brought to them. v.16 shows CLEARLY the difference between water and the Holy Spirit. They are DIFFERENT baptisms.

Yes, they are different baptisms.

However, one is promised as the result of the other (Acts 2:38-39).

 

[justbyfaith]

And that refutes your whole theory.

Nope.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Why not provide actual scripture that speaks directly to when remission of sin takes place?

Do you sincerely want those Scripture?

WHAT JOHN THE BAPTIST SAID
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance (Mt 3:8)

WHAT CHRIST SAID
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Lk 24:47)

WHAT PETER SAID
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19)

WHAT PAUL SAID
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? (Rom 2:4)

So it should be clear that sins are forgiven when there is genuine repentance. This goes all the way back to the book of Jonah.

JONAH 3: HOW NINEVEH REPENTED AND WAS FORGIVEN
5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

 

[justbyfaith]

Acts
20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

Those who are baptized in the name of Jesus become disciples of Jesus.

 

[mailmandan]

That's okay I'll pass.

I don't have any need for Acts 22:16 to not mean what it says...

Why then would I go to a false teacher on the matter so that he can tell me what my itching ears might want to hear if I did have such a need?

Suit yourself but this is what happens when you fail to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. The end result is a “works based” false gospel.

 

[justbyfaith]

Suit yourself but this is what happens when you fail to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine. The end result is a “works based” false gospel.

Since baptism is not a work, I am not preaching a "works based" false gospel.

I have simply been stating that there is a conditional promise that is mentioned in Acts 2:38-39;

And that if you fulfill the condition of the promise, you will absolutely receive that promise.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, are distinct from one another.

Therefore there is no problem in my theology over the fact that God refers to Himself as "Us" or "We"

(I said this before in another thread...either you did not see that or else you are just trying to make me work).

The problem is that you can't see separate Persons, which the text is clear about.

Again, if a single Person were to use pronouns such as "we" and "us", we'd all know he was a bit mental.

And the very clear verses were God the Father FROM heaven speaks to His Son, here on earth, proves your theory wrong.

 

[mailmandan]

Since baptism is not a work, I am not preaching a "works based" false gospel.

I have simply been stating that there is a conditional promise that is mentioned in Acts 2:38-39;

And that if you fulfill the condition of the promise, you will absolutely receive that promise.

So if baptism is not at work then what is it? Is it just a nothing? So no work at all gets accomplished when someone is water baptized? In Matthew 315, in regards to Jesus getting water baptized, Jesus said - “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.”

So baptism is clearly a “work of righteousness” and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5)

 

[FreeGrace2]

I disagree with you, there. And, I don't think that you have any scripture to back up your claim.

Sure I do. The one you keep MISREADING.

1 Peter 3:21 - and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I'm going to explain this verse with such clarity that EVERYBODY will be able to understand it.
Red words refers to literal water, from v.20 and mention of the flood.
Blue word is what literal water DOES. Literal water is a SYMBOL.
Green words is the baptism that DOES save.

So far, we have "literal water is a symbol for the baptism that DOES save.

Then, Peter makes it crystal clear that it ISN'T literal water that saves by the orange words.

Literal water is involved in the removal of dirt from the body. And Peter said "NOT" in regard to saving.

You use this verse to support your claim that symbols save. Well, you just aren't reading the verse correctly.

My color coded explanation proves that you aren't.

But, no matter, because those with closed eyes and ears STILL won't see it. Or believe it.

 

[justbyfaith]

The problem is that you can't see separate Persons, which the text is clear about.

Again, if a single Person were to use pronouns such as "we" and "us", we'd all know he was a bit mental.

And the very clear verses were God the Father FROM heaven speaks to His Son, here on earth, proves your theory wrong.

What text?

God the Father and God the Son are two distinct Persons.

Each one having the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4)..

God is a Spirit (John 4:23-24).

 

[justbyfaith]

So if baptism is not at work then what is it? Is it just a nothing? So no work at all gets accomplished when someone is water baptized? In Matthew 315, in regards to Jesus getting water baptized, Jesus said - “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.”

So baptism is clearly a “work of righteousness” and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5)

It may fulfill righteousness (which ought to tell you something);

But it is not a work.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What text?

God the Father and God the Son are two distinct Persons.

Each one having the same Spirit (Ephesians 4:4)..

God is a Spirit (John 4:23-24).

The ONLY WAY the Father and Son are "distinct Persons" is by being "separate Persons".

There is NO OTHER WAY to explain The Father's voice from heaven speaking to His Son on earth. Period.