How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[DavidTree]

David, I feel like I am speaking to a mormon or a jehovah's witness--no true believer would call me a heretic by believing what Christ said would happen at His coming to the apostles in literal language. It's simple, He comes after the tribulation and IMMEDIATELY, comes His Judgment wherein the unbeliever and the wicked along with the heavens and earth are destroyed.

You are so very arrogant.

YES, i am joyfully FREE from the error of religion as i 'let it all go and burn up' at the Feet of JESUS.

Therefore my mind is not under the control of carnal academia as the Spirit of Truth covers me and will not lead me astray as long as i do not add to or take away from "It is written".

HE wonderfully blesses me to know what is literal = Luke 17:19-31 , 2 Cor 5:1-7
And
what is symbolic = Matt 25:1-13
And
what is a mixture of symbolism with literal truth = Revelation ch7 and ch12

AMEN

 

[DavidTree]

This has become a fruitless endeavor and is neither edifying to us or others and certainly brings no glory to God. I'm sure he is frowning on both of us now. I won't be responding further to this forum.

"So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another."--Romans 14:9

There is no peace between religion and Truth = one must die for the other to live

"Do not think that I came to bring peace to the earth; I came not to bring peace, but a sword." Matt 10:34

Your Mission Laura, should you choose to accept it, is to sharpen your Sword against the Diamond Hard WORD.

 

[Laura798]

YES, i am joyfully FREE from the error of religion as i 'let it all go and burn up' at the Feet of JESUS.

Therefore my mind is not under the control of carnal academia as the Spirit of Truth covers me and will not lead me astray as long as i do not add to or take away from "It is written".

HE wonderfully blesses me to know what is literal = Luke 17:19-31 , 2 Cor 5:1-7
And
what is symbolic = Matt 25:1-13
And
what is a mixture of symbolism with literal truth = Revelation ch7 and ch12

AMEN

"Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips.--Proverbs 27:1

"A scoffer seeks wisdom in vain, but knowledge is easy for a man of understanding."--Proverbs 14:6

"Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil."--Proverbs 3:7

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hosea 5:14-6:3's "after TWO days" and "IN the THIRD day" (from the perspective in time of His resurrection and ascension / exaltation, per this passage [context: regarding Israel's "future," btw]), then it certainly corresponds (meaning, the "7 days" = 7 millennia); not to mention how Exodus 31:13,17 says, "for it [/the seventh day / Sabbath] is A SIGN between Me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days..." (corresponding with that which Heb4:9's "sabbatismos" speaks of)

 

[DavidTree]

"Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips.--Proverbs 27:1

"A scoffer seeks wisdom in vain, but knowledge is easy for a man of understanding."--Proverbs 14:6

"Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil."--Proverbs 3:7

AMEN - make sure you follow these Scriptures.

One of the Great JOYs of the Believer is the Testimony of Christ and what HE has done for them.

So my words are rejoicing in and of the Holy Spirit and not any man's religion - AMEN

Go back and look on your own words Sister for they point back at you.

 

[DavidTree]

I guess you have not read these:

The Talmud comments:
R. Katina said, “Six thousand years the world will exist and one [thousand, the seventh], it shall be desolate (haruv), as it is written, ‘And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day’ (Isa. 2:11)... R. Katina also taught, “Just as the seventh year is the Shmita year, so too does the world have one thousand years out of seven that are fallow (mushmat), as it is written, ‘And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day’ (Isa. 2:11); and further it is written, ‘A psalm and song for the Shabbat day’ (Ps. 92:1) – meaning the day that is altogether Shabbat – and also it is said, ‘For one thousand years in Your [God's] eyes are but a day that has passed.’ (Ps.90:4) (Sanhedrin 97a).”

The Midrash in Pirke De-Rabbi Eliezer comments:
Six eons for going in and coming out, for war and peace. The seventh eon is entirely Shabbat and rest for life everlasting.[

The Zohar states:
In the 600th year of the sixth thousand, the gates of wisdom on high and the wellsprings of lower wisdom will be opened. This will prepare the world to enter the seventh thousand, just as man prepares himself toward sunset on Friday for the Sabbath.[13]

The Zohar explains further:
The redemption of Israel will come about through the mystic force of the letter “Vav” [which has the numerical value of six], namely, in the sixth millennium…. Happy are those who will be left alive at the end of the sixth millennium to enter the Shabbat, which is the seventh millennium; for that is a day set apart for the Holy One on which to effect the union of new souls with old souls in the world (Zohar, Vayera 119a).

There is a kabbalistic tradition[14] that maintains that each of the seven days of creation in Genesis chapter one corresponds to one millennium of the existence of natural creation.

The tradition teaches that the seventh day of the week, the Sabbath day of rest, corresponds to the seventh millennium, the age of universal 'rest' - the Messianic Era.

Why is it so difficult for some to believe Jesus will have a REAL, literal, 1000 year reign? The Jews and Hebrews have believed this since perhaps the days of Moses or before.

AMEN AMEN AMEN

Now if you follow, not kabbalah nor the midrash nor the talmud, as these are all fall short but nevertheless do contain some truth, but the Truth from Genesis you will SEE that there never was and never will be a 'pre-trib' rapture for His Elect.

There is CLEAR Pre-Wrath DELIVERANCE - AMEN

 

[1ofthem]

Why is it so difficult for some to believe Jesus will have a REAL, literal, 1000 year reign? The Jews and Hebrews have believed this since perhaps the days of Moses or before.

But isn't that why they didn't believe that Jesus was the savior and crucified the Lord.

They told Jesus if he was the savior to deliver himself, and he told them that his kingdom wasn't of this world.

They were looking for a savior to come and literally reign on the earth which didn't happen. Wasn't that their problem? and how they actually missed it by misinterpreting the scripture?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [ @DavidTree 's Post #5026] Isaiah 13:9 - "9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."

And Paul in 1Th5:2-3 even acknowledges that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of the "ARRIVAL" of "the DOTL" time period: that it will be "EXACTLY LIKE [G5618]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... and Jesus said THOSE [plural] are what will precede and lead up to the AOD (which occurs when there are yet 1260 days remaining until His Second Coming to the earth at Rev19 [which is what Matt24:29-31 speaks to]); IOW, the "BoBP's" correspond to the "SEALS" of Rev6 commencing at the START of the 7 years (not at the END of those years, at His "RETURN" to the earth)

 

[DavidTree]

^ [ @DavidTree 's Post #5026] Isaiah 13:9 - "9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it."

And Paul in 1Th5:2-3 even acknowledges that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of the "ARRIVAL" of "the DOTL" time period: that it will be "EXACTLY LIKE [G5618]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... and Jesus said THOSE [plural] are what will precede and lead up to the AOD (which occurs when there are yet 1260 days remaining until His Second Coming to the earth at Rev19 [which is what Matt24:29-31 speaks to]); IOW, the "BoBP's" correspond to the "SEALS" of Rev6 commencing at the START of the 7 years (not at the END of those years, at His "RETURN" to the earth)

Where in Revelation or the Gospels or the Apostles writing is 7 Years ever mentioned as to His Coming???

 

[Charlie24]

But isn't that why they didn't believe that Jesus was the savior and crucified the Lord.

They told Jesus if he was the savior to deliver himself, and he told them that his kingdom wasn't of this world.

They were looking for a savior to come and literally reign on the earth which didn't happen. Wasn't that their problem? and how they actually missed it by misinterpreting the scripture?

There's no doubt the Jews were looking for the Messiah to come and reign of this earth. They were not looking for the suffering Lamb who would lay down His life for the sins of the world, they were looking for a warrior Messiah to deliver them from Rome.

The whole problem for the Jews it that they believed they were saved by the fact they were given the Law of Moses from God, and the Messiah who would rule this world would be a Jew, one of them.

Just the fact of being a Jew was salvation for them, but Paul told them a Jew in not one outwardly but inwardly by the circumcision of the heart, not the circumcision of the Law of Moses. This is the reason they followed Paul everywhere he went to kill him.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Where in Revelation or the Gospels or the Apostles writing is 7 Years ever mentioned as to His Coming???

Well, first of all DavidTree, it doesn't seem to me that you've given even one minute's time to considering what I put in that post (as far as Scripture being provided to present my case).

When I said Paul acknowleged that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of the "ARRIVAL" of "the DOTL" time period, that it will be "EXACTLY LIKE [G5618]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... and that Jesus SPOKE OF THESE [in the plural] as being THAT WHICH PRECEDES the AOD point in time (when 1260 days are YET REMAINING until Christ's RETURN to the earth in Rev19)... what is this CONVEYING about the SEQUENCE / CHRONOLOGY?

--that "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" come BEFORE the "AOD" and the "AOD" is what kicks off the "1260 days" that lead up to Christ's RETURN in Matthew 24:29-31. Therefore, the FIRST of those "birth PANGS [plural]" cannot BE at the same point in time as "His RETURN" (if they precede the AOD even!!)



Once you ponder that point for awhile... then I can get into what Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says about "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (the things from 4:1 through chpt 19 His RETURN to the earth--i.e. the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book... which "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and which INCLUDE the "SEALS" [which are EQUIVALENT to "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [plural]" Jesus spoke of])






P.S. don't merely repeat the oft-touted phrase ppl tend to repeat from others (all the while disregarding the BIBLICAL chronology and timing issues found in and disclosed in scripture)... when they say, "where is the '7 years?!?!' I don't see scripture talking about '7 years' ANYWHERE!!"

 

[Charlie24]

There's no doubt the Jews were looking for the Messiah to come and reign of this earth. They were not looking for the suffering Lamb who would lay down His life for the sins of the world, they were looking for a warrior Messiah to deliver them from Rome.

The whole problem for the Jews it that they believed they were saved by the fact they were given the Law of Moses from God, and the Messiah who would rule this world would be a Jew, one of them.

Just the fact of being a Jew was salvation for them, but Paul told them a Jew in not one outwardly but inwardly by the circumcision of the heart, not the circumcision of the Law of Moses. This is the reason they followed Paul everywhere he went to kill him.

The big surprise for Israel is coming! The warrior Messiah is coming at the Second Coming!

Zechariah said, there will be great mourning in the land when they see the One whom they have pierced (Jesus).

They will all see Him when He comes to save His chosen people (Israel) from the anti-christ.

Israel will come to God as Paul said, All of Israel will be saved. The Second Coming is when this happens.

Israel (the 1/3 left alive as Zech. said) will enter into the 1000 year reign of Christ in the natural body to reproduce.

 

[1ofthem]

There's no doubt the Jews were looking for the Messiah to come and reign of this earth. They were not looking for the suffering Lamb who would lay down His life for the sins of the world, they were looking for a warrior Messiah to deliver them from Rome.

The whole problem for the Jews it that they believed they were saved by the fact they were given the Law of Moses from God, and the Messiah who would rule this world would be a Jew, one of them.

Just the fact of being a Jew was salvation for them, but Paul told them a Jew in not one outwardly but inwardly by the circumcision of the heart, not the circumcision of the Law of Moses. This is the reason they followed Paul everywhere he went to kill him.

The Jews for the most part were fleshly and looking at the scriptures with a natural eye instead of a spiritual eye. The scribes and pharisees had studied the scriptures immensely; yet, they had no understanding. They made many false connections by taking things so literal, such as bind the word around your heart and neck. They actually thought that meant to literally tie it around their neck.

The scriptures are spiritually discerned, and they had no spiritual understanding. That's why they were often instructed that unless they open their spiritual eyes and ears then they would not understand and be lost.

If they had known and actually understood the scriptures, then they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. 1Cor.2

 

[DavidTree]

Well, first of all DavidTree, it doesn't seem to me that you've given even one minute's time to considering what I put in that post (as far as Scripture being provided to present my case).

When I said Paul acknowleged that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of the "ARRIVAL" of "the DOTL" time period, that it will be "EXACTLY LIKE [G5618]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman... and that Jesus SPOKE OF THESE [in the plural] as being THAT WHICH PRECEDES the AOD point in time (when 1260 days are YET REMAINING until Christ's RETURN to the earth in Rev19)... what is this CONVEYING about the SEQUENCE / CHRONOLOGY?

--that "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" come BEFORE the "AOD" and the "AOD" is what kicks off the "1260 days" that lead up to Christ's RETURN in Matthew 24:29-31. Therefore, the FIRST of those "birth PANGS [plural]" cannot BE at the same point in time as "His RETURN" (if they precede the AOD even!!)



Once you ponder that point for awhile... then I can get into what Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says about "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (the things from 4:1 through chpt 19 His RETURN to the earth--i.e. the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book... which "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and which INCLUDE the "SEALS" [which are EQUIVALENT to "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [plural]" Jesus spoke of])

i love to ponder Scripture and absolutely did read and consider your post.

No, back to the question so that we can ponder Scripture -
Where can you find the LORD, the Apostles and Revelation stating "Seven(7) Years"???

This is essential for us to understand His Plan - PEACE

 

[Charlie24]

The Jews for the most part were fleshly and looking at the scriptures with a natural eye instead of a spiritual eye. The scribes and pharisees had studied the scriptures immensely; yet, they had no understanding. They made many false connections by taking things so literal, such as bind the word around your heart and neck. They actually thought that meant to literally tie it around their neck.

The scriptures are spiritually discerned, and they had no spiritual understanding. That's why they were often instructed that unless they open their spiritual eyes and ears then they would not understand and be lost.

If they had known and actually understood the scriptures, then they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. 1Cor.2

That is very true! They made a God of the Law of Moses. The Messiah was to fulfil what they had decided would take place, the whole time they were spiritually dead to the fact that they needed salvation just as the Gentiles. They were proud and blind to that fact.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@DavidTree (re: your Post #5034), first let me ask you: since Paul mentions the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" that COMES UPON and woman... in 1Th5:1-3 (and acknowledges the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that "the DOTL" time period will "ARRIVE" in that precise manner)... then looking back at what JESUS said about "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"--Matthew 24:4-8--which one of THOSE would you say is the INITIAL one that COMES UPON a woman (suddenly)?? Which verse, of Matthew 24:4-8 (speaking of those), would be the FIRST birth PANG [singular] of "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]"??




Do you even agree that these PRECEDE the "AOD" point in the chronology?? (i.e. they are not the same point in time AS Matt24:29-31, His RETURN, right??)

 

[RichMan]

A friend warned me not to come to this forum.
He said there is no discussion, only people preaching what they believe.
A lot of shouting, judging, misuse of Scripture, and very little truth and understanding.
I have not read all the post, but enough that I agree with him.
In Luke, when Jesus sent the 12 out, and again when He sent the 70 out, He instructed them to only stay and teach those who would listen. Those who would not, they were to not waste time on them.
There is a lot of time wasted here that could be better spent.
I have learned over the years that teaching takes time and can not be accomplished when everyone is speaking at the same time.
I have also learned that changing someone's mind on this subject is almost impossible.
Only when a person begins to question what he has been taught and believes will he seek the truth.
I was taught and believe in the imminent, pre-tribulation rapture.
As I began to study, I soon began to doubt what I believed. When I asked those older and wiser, their answers did not satisfy. The Scripture they used was misused, taken out of context, and had their own interpretation placed on it.
Through much prayer and study, I came to the correct understanding.
The anti-christ will come out of Islam.
He will have 1290 days to reign until Jesus comes and the resurrection of all whose name is in the book of life.
There will be no third temple. No 7 year peace treaty with Israel. No pre-tribulation rapture of the church.
I will not debate you. I will not discuss this with you. I will not try to teach you the truth in the atmosphere that is present here. No one will listen. No reason to waste my time.
Just stating what I believe.
This is my first and last post on the subject.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Just the fact of being a Jew was salvation for them, but Paul told them a Jew in not one outwardly but inwardly by the circumcision of the heart, not the circumcision of the Law of Moses. This is the reason they followed Paul everywhere he went to kill him.

Agreed. And just to be clear to the readers (many times who think Paul is saying the following), Paul is NOT saying (in Rom2:28-29) that Gentiles BECOME "Jews" (or "spiritual Israel/Jews") when they come to faith in Christ for salvation.

The CONTEXT of Paul's words in Rom2:28-29 is "Jews".

 

[Charlie24]

A friend warned me not to come to this forum.
He said there is no discussion, only people preaching what they believe.
A lot of shouting, judging, misuse of Scripture, and very little truth and understanding.
I have not read all the post, but enough that I agree with him.
In Luke, when Jesus sent the 12 out, and again when He sent the 70 out, He instructed them to only stay and teach those who would listen. Those who would not, they were to not waste time on them.
There is a lot of time wasted here that could be better spent.
I have learned over the years that teaching takes time and can not be accomplished when everyone is speaking at the same time.
I have also learned that changing someone's mind on this subject is almost impossible.
Only when a person begins to question what he has been taught and believes will he seek the truth.
I was taught and believe in the imminent, pre-tribulation rapture.
As I began to study, I soon began to doubt what I believed. When I asked those older and wiser, their answers did not satisfy. The Scripture they used was misused, taken out of context, and had their own interpretation placed on it.
Through much prayer and study, I came to the correct understanding.
The anti-christ will come out of Islam.
He will have 1290 days to reign until Jesus comes and the resurrection of all whose name is in the book of life.
There will be no third temple. No 7 year peace treaty with Israel. No pre-tribulation rapture of the church.
I will not debate you. I will not discuss this with you. I will not try to teach you the truth in the atmosphere that is present here. No one will listen. No reason to waste my time.
Just stating what I believe.
This is my first and last post on the subject.

There are 2 ways to look at this! The way your friend sees it and the way I see it.

If we lay on the table what we believe and why we believe it, we all will see what the different beliefs are and why!

Of course there will be arguing, just as Jesus argued with the Pharisees, the way Paul argued with the Jews!

The benefit is that in all this confusion the truth is in there, and the many viewers who read along and don't take part in the discussions can see that truth and benefit from it.

This is the reason I'm here! Do you think I'm here to butt heads with these knuckleheads' (lol) for the fun of it?

I learn, we all learn when the cards are laid on the table!

 

[Charlie24]

Agreed. And just to be clear to the readers (many times who think Paul is saying the following), Paul is NOT saying (in Rom2:28-29) that Gentiles BECOME "Jews" (or "spiritual Israel/Jews") when they come to faith in Christ for salvation.

The CONTEXT of Paul's words in Rom2:28-29 is "Jews".

That is correct in my opinion! We become spiritual Israel, the spiritual seed of Abraham in Christ through faith!

We Gentiles are the grafted vine into the natural vine.