How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[DavidTree]

Well, for one thing... as many times as it has been pointed out to you that the word "APPEAR [G3708 (passive)]" (re: Jesus) in Hebrews 9:28 ('a second time apart from sin SHALL APPEAR') is the same exact word used regarding when Jesus "appeared" unto Paul when Paul was on the road to Damascus and Jesus WAS IN HEAVEN already, at that point (so He "appeared" to Paul in His exaltation [i.e. FROM HIS POSITION *UP THERE*])... you continually disregard this fact and continue to insist instead that this Heb9:28 *must* refer to whatever it is you *think* it refers to [i.e. His bodily physical RETURN to the earth at Rev19], instead of something else (that may not require His physical presence on [or "coming to"] the earth, just as it didn't when He "appeared" unto Paul on the road to Damascus, while He was UP THERE).

[note to readers: recall the study I mentioned about Paul being a "TYPE" of the future "144,000" who will exist in/during the future 7 year tribulation period / 70th Week / the 2520 days LEADING UP TO Christ's "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19]

Brother, get a grip on Scripture - you are trying too hard, this is ABC's for His Kids.

Just as man is appointed to die once, and after that to face judgment,
so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin,
but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

A.) Jesus came once(first coming/appearing) to sacrifice Himself for sin
B.) He is coming/appearing again a second time = Second Coming of Christ
C.) salvation for those who wait for Him = His Second Coming

If you are unable to understand this, then you will not be able to understand His Coming either.

 

[ewq1938]

His Saints are throughout Revelation, from beginning to end.

Use Post #4,499 to see the Church from Revelation chapter 1 thru to chapter 22

Why does Revelation chapter One start with Christ saying "I am the Alpha an dthe Omega"

and then HE says the same thing in Rev chapter 22 - WHY???

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Candlesticks are churches:


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

These two churches are part of the two witnesses. That makes them part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


The other part of the two witnesses are two olive trees which are also called two prophets. These are Christians who are part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



These are also Christians which are a part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth. They are also sealed before the Great Tribulation begins which means they are not converts during the Great Tribulation which Pre-trib errantly calls "tribulation saints". Not one scripture ever says anyone converts to Christ during the Great Tribulation. How could they? You are either marked by the Antichrist and belong to him or you reject the mark and belong to God.


Is Pre-trib correct that church is not mentioned in the middle chapters of Revelation? No, Pre-trib is wrong.
Is Pre-trib correct that church is removed before the Great Tribulation begins? No, Pre-trib is wrong.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Not the Church saints, my friend! The saints mentioned in the Rev. account of the tribulation are the ones saved DURING the tribulation.

Agreed.

They come to faith in Christ following "our Rapture".


And many of them who will be "still-alive" at the END of the Trib years (at Christ's RETURN to the earth in Rev19) will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies (capable of reproducing / bearing children)... just as in the days of Noah (compare Daniel 2:35 with Gen9:1).

There's difficulty in explaining who it is that Satan will go forth to deceive (as his aim) at the end of the MK age, if all saints are "changed" into glorified bodies at the point of His "RETURN" to the earth, and all the lost are "wrathed" out of existence, also at that point.

 

[ewq1938]

A 'virgin' is an unmarried woman. (overall biblical context)

In-of-itself, the word does not imply nor indicate anything whatsoever to do with salvation.

Except here:

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

Agreed.

They come to faith in Christ following "our Rapture".


And many of them who will be "still-alive" at the END of the Trib years (at Christ's RETURN to the earth in Rev19) will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies (capable of reproducing / bearing children)... just as in the days of Noah (compare Daniel 2:35 with Gen9:1).

There's difficulty in explaining who it is that Satan will go forth to deceive (as his aim) at the end of the MK age, if all saints are "changed" into glorified bodies at the point of His "RETURN" to the earth, and all the lost are "wrathed" out of existence, also at that point.

Now this man knows what he's talking about! Nice to have you around, Brother!

 

[ewq1938]

They come to faith in Christ following "our Rapture".

Which isn't something the bible says shall happen. It was made up by Pretribbers long ago and is repeated by one's like yourself.

 

[DavidTree]

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Candlesticks are churches:


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

These two churches are part of the two witnesses. That makes them part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


The other part of the two witnesses are two olive trees which are also called two prophets. These are Christians who are part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



These are also Christians which are a part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth. They are also sealed before the Great Tribulation begins which means they are not converts during the Great Tribulation which Pre-trib errantly calls "tribulation saints". Not one scripture ever says anyone converts to Christ during the Great Tribulation. How could they? You are either marked by the Antichrist and belong to him or you reject the mark and belong to God.


Is Pre-trib correct that church is not mentioned in the middle chapters of Revelation? No, Pre-trib is wrong.
Is Pre-trib correct that church is removed before the Great Tribulation begins? No, Pre-trib is wrong.

Thanks, i just noticed in your post i left out "servants of our God" as part of the group of names for His Church/Bride/Elect/Saints.

ALSO, there would need be a separate gospel that is exclusive for "tribulation saints" as they were "Left Behind".

AND no one can be Left Behind because the Resurrection takes place First, before the rapture.

pre-trib just continues to drift away from sound doctrine and clear "It is written" Scripture.

 

[Charlie24]

Which isn't something the bible says shall happen. It was made up by Pretribbers long ago and is repeated by one's like yourself.

And neither does the Bible say the Church saints go through the tribulation. That's something the post-tribbers assume!

 

[DavidTree]

Agreed.

They come to faith in Christ following "our Rapture".


And many of them who will be "still-alive" at the END of the Trib years (at Christ's RETURN to the earth in Rev19) will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies (capable of reproducing / bearing children)... just as in the days of Noah (compare Daniel 2:35 with Gen9:1).

There's difficulty in explaining who it is that Satan will go forth to deceive (as his aim) at the end of the MK age, if all saints are "changed" into glorified bodies at the point of His "RETURN" to the earth, and all the lost are "wrathed" out of existence, also at that point.

No, it's not, but that's for another thread.

Good Nite Friends - Pray for our Nation and the Saints who are currently in Great Tribulation even now.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

B.) He is coming/appearing again a second time = Second Coming of Christ

The text states, "a second time apart from sin shall appear..."

The first time He "appeared apart from sin" (in every case of THIS WORD, 10x used re: Jesus) was AFTER His resurrection (that was the first time He "appeared apart from sin" / His dealing with the sin / sin-offering)... ALL TEN TIMES this word is used (the word used in Heb9:28 "G3708 [(passive) APPEAR]" re: Jesus), it is speaking of things which took place AFTER His death / resurrection ["IT IS FINISHED"]. (NONE speak of His earthly ministry BEFORE His death / resurrection). Why is that?

There will be: "a SECOND TIME *apart from sin* shall He appear..." (but one should understand the first time apart from sin that He "appeared [G3708 (passive)]" was AFTER His resurrection... and in 5 of those 10 references (of that same word), it was FROM HIS POSITION IN HEAVEN / in His EXALTATION... when He appeared unto Paul (who happens to be a "TYPE" of the future "144,000"... and, yeah, who will indeed be "eagerly-awaiting [G553] Him" of course--"the 144,000" ARE called "servants of our God," after all [Rev7:3 / 1:1]).

 

[GaryA]

All I'm saying is that this phrase "SECOND coming" is not found in Scripture itself, but is a man-supplied label to help aid in our discussions ...which can sometimes be helpful... but at other times, like when it makes us deny that Jesus ascended up to Heaven ON FIRSTFRUIT (His Resurrection Day) and then came back for to be seen of them for "40 days" before then visibly going up in Acts 1... then it can become a crippling "label" that hinders us from seeing Scripture for itself, and what it actually tells us.

But that is where the problem lies...

From a "biggest-picture" historical framework and viewpoint, everything from His conception to His [final] ascension is part of His 'First Coming'. How many times He "appeared" is moot. In the historical perspective, the 'First Coming of Christ' includes all that occurred during His first [historical] 'coming'.

The same is true of the second [historical] 'coming'.

All of the up-and-down-up-and-down conjecture means nothing.

Matthew 12:

40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

When Jesus came back from "the heart of the earth" (His resurrection) - was this [yet] another coming?

Of course not!

There are only two [historical] "comings" indicated in scripture.

And, everything in scripture that is associated with a 'coming' of Christ - that is not part of the First Coming of Christ - is part of the Second Coming of Christ.

This basic truth in scripture is foundational in understanding all-things-coming-of-Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

And neither does the Bible say the Church saints go through the tribulation. That's something the post-tribbers assume!

No, it's biblical fact:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Candlesticks are churches:


Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

These two churches are part of the two witnesses. That makes them part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


The other part of the two witnesses are two olive trees which are also called two prophets. These are Christians who are part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



These are also Christians which are a part of the overall church of Christ and they are very much living through the Great Tribulation on the Earth. They are also sealed before the Great Tribulation begins which means they are not converts during the Great Tribulation which Pre-trib errantly calls "tribulation saints". Not one scripture ever says anyone converts to Christ during the Great Tribulation. How could they? You are either marked by the Antichrist and belong to him or you reject the mark and belong to God.


Is Pre-trib correct that church is not mentioned in the middle chapters of Revelation? No, Pre-trib is wrong.
Is Pre-trib correct that church is removed before the Great Tribulation begins? No, Pre-trib is wrong.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No, it's not, but that's for another thread.

Not sure what your phrase "No, it's not" is in reference to, as it is unclear... but good night. Hope to see you around tomorrow...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

How many times He "appeared" is moot.

My point isn't "how many times He 'appeared'".



[read again, my point, more carefully??]

... I spoke of the number of REFERENCES [VERSES] using this same word (re: Jesus), and what those SPEAK of [10 VERSES]... not the number of TIMES HE APPEARED (not my point).

 

[ewq1938]

When Jesus came back from "the heart of the earth" (His resurrection) - was this [yet] another coming?

Of course not!

Agreed.

The comings have to be from heaven to the Earth ie: a physical appearance.

The first coming he left heaven to be born on the Earth. Bonus fact: he initially did not touch the ground at the first coming because newborn etc.

The second coming is coming from heaven to the Earth but no birth needed because that already happened. Again the bonus fact is he also initially does not touch the ground at this appearance, being seen in the clouds and fighting at Armageddon from the air.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Jesus ascended to the Father ON FIRSTFRUIT / His Resurrection Day (John 20:17);

Then He came back down to the earth and spent some "40 days" with His disciples (NO OTHER PPL WITNESSING THIS!! or seeing Him during those days, only His "carefully chosen witnesses")

Then He went up to Heaven after those 40 days, in Acts 1 (VISIBLY before their eyes).





But you are somehow only counting "two" times TOTAL (one being yet future to us... which I agree He will RETURN then)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Not one scripture ever says anyone converts to Christ during the Great Tribulation. How could they?

I cannot recall if you are among those who do NOT equate "great tribulation" (Matt24:21 / Rev7:14) with the TIME period being referenced also in Daniel 12:1-3,6-7 (I am one who DOES see this connection between these passages),

...but note where verses 1-3 of Daniel 12 (speaking specifically of the SECOND HALF of the Trib yrs, aka "the GREAT tribulation") shows verse 3 saying, "AND they that TURN MANY TO righteousness, [shall be] as the stars for ever and ever" (i.e. this is showing what will be taking place during this specific time period being referenced in this text). Speaking of how the "WISE" will be doing this

(the "wicked" v.10 will be unconcerned with "turning many to righteousness")

 

[GaryA]

This to me is interesting in that it can be taken in different ways depending on whether you are pre/post.

One of the most dangerous and negligent things you can do (where interpetation is concerned) is to [proceed to try to] discern End Times prophetic scripture with a presupposition to 'pre-trib', 'mid-trib', 'post-trib', or anything else.

Each and every passage must be discerned by its own context - in such a way that - when all of scripture is taken together - the proper conclusion is reached.

No passage of scripture [itself] should be interpreted with any assumptions based on the 'conclusion' viewpoint.

This is true whatever the viewpoint.

I know this is sometimes difficult to do; nonetheless, it must be done to prevent a "built-in slant" from affecting the proper discernment of a passage of scripture.

Once a passage of scripture is [itself] interpreted, then "comparing scripture with scripture" may then "come into play" for discernment regarding the larger scope...

The end result 'conclusion' should not have been reached with any "loop logic" reasoning whereby the 'conclusion' was "inserted into" the reasoning process at any point before reaching the [very same] 'conclusion'.

 

[GaryA]

Matthew 24 is referring to this same prophecy in Zechariah 14.

No, Laura - this is a case where 'similar' does not mean 'same'.

The Matthew passage is referring to circa 70 A.D.

The Zechariah passage is referring to Armageddon.

 

[GaryA]

STOP IT!!!!

Oh no - it's spreading...