Right. Verse 1 is speaking of one thing (one point in time);
however, v.8b is speaking of a completely distinct point in time from that of verse 1.
however, v.8b is speaking of a completely distinct point in time from that of verse 1.
How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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All I'm saying is that this phrase "SECOND coming" is not found in Scripture itself, but is a man-supplied label to help aid in our discussions ...which can sometimes be helpful... but at other times, like when it makes us deny that Jesus ascended up to Heaven ON FIRSTFRUIT (His Resurrection Day) and then came back for to be seen of them for "40 days" before then visibly going up in Acts 1... then it can become a crippling "label" that hinders us from seeing Scripture for itself, and what it actually tells us.
[for the readers: I use the phrase myself, when discussing...]
Really Charlie? If he's frustrated with others it is not okay to take it out on me.
Christians shouldn't behave like the world when they are frustrated--you all get frustrated because you think you're right and if only the other side would 'see the light!' Well did you ever consider that we feel the exact same way? I can't count how many times I've got responses where it was obvious they hadn't even read what I wrote--they've decided my beliefs are xyz even though I keep saying no--they are Abc, ABc ABC!
Who are you guys?
I don't need it to say anything. I'm just trying to look at the scriptures honestly and do as Jesus said watch and be ready and be prepared to endure until the end.
Sounds like you're the one that needs it to say something...you're the one looking for an easy way out.
I think we've discussed this before not sure, though.
There was no secret rapture for Lot or Noah. God had already made his judgement and his judgement was already coming down. Lot was being rushed out of the city and told not to even look back as it was being destroyed. With Noah, the people were warned and did not believe so yeah, destruction came upon them swiftly...just like it is going to happen in the end.
There were no secret raptures in any of those events.
No, my dear brother Gary. I cannot let you get away with that incredible cornfuzz. I have never said anyone had to agree with me 100% on everything to get through the Gates.Let me guess --- what makes a saint "ready" is if he/she believes in a pre-trib rapture ["at the 'appointed' time"]...?
Which means he/she is a [born-again] saint the moment he/she believes in a pre-trib rapture.
All others cannot be a [born-again] saint unless-and-until they loose-their-head.
Is that what you are saying?
It sure seems like that is what you are saying.
Garsh - and I thought you became a [born-again] saint when you placed your full belief, faith, and trust in the Almighty Creator and His only begotten Son Jesus.
You mean - you have to believe in a pre-trib rapture to be saved???
Let us take this time to see if we cannot all say a little prayer together...
Matthew
6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
If you can pray that with me, then I'm a happy oyster.
Really Charlie? If he's frustrated with others it is not okay to take it out on me.
Christians shouldn't behave like the world when they are frustrated--you all get frustrated because you think you're right and if only the other side would 'see the light!' Well did you ever consider that we feel the exact same way? I can't count how many times I've got responses where it was obvious they hadn't even read what I wrote--they've decided my beliefs are xyz even though I keep saying no--they are Abc, ABc ABC!
Of course we all feel that way, that is what makes us human. We all need to cut some slack with each other when we see frustration.
Easier said than done, i'm afraid, that certainly includes me.
Ah yes, a brief respite-to bring us back to the reality of what this walk is about--and it's not about arguing--I have an idea--let's all pray that we will all see THE TRUTH and let go of our 'own truth' and need to be right. Okay off to do other things--thanks Oyster!
And my apologies if I misunderstood you, but your response sounded as if you were in disagreement with my comment regarding Christ's present reign (post #4256)--in heaven and on earth in the hearts/spirit of the believers.
No English word or phrase is "found in scripture itself" since it wasn't originally written in English. There really is no valid reason to ever complain that "the second coming" in that exact word order isn't found in scripture. It's a waste of everyone's time.
Speaking of secret, there is something that Paul made reference to as secret, he called it a "mystery." I would say somewhat of a secret.
But you make up your own mind by reading it.
1 Cor. 15:51
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
Paul is giving us something here that no other writer of scripture gives us. It's a revelation that has not been known concerning the resurrection. This to me is interesting in that it can be taken in different ways depending on whether you are pre/post.
The way I see it as a pre-trib is that Paul is explaining something that is separate from the resurrection that we read at the Second Coming. This does not match the events of the Second Coming. This is where the pre-trib venture begins.
Well - yes and no.
This is what the post-trib view does:
1) read scripture
2) draw conclusions based on what scripture-and-scripture-alone [really actually] says
3) build on that solid foundation, "filling the gaps" with only that which agrees with all scripture
This is what the pre-trib view does:
1) read scripture
2) fill the gaps with whatever seems to connect different passages together in the best way to align with the most favorable outcome that will allow us to be comfortable in the belief that we will never have to face anything even close to what millions of martyrs in the past have experienced
3) ignore any simple direct straight-forward blatent statements in scripture in favor of the intended result from #2
And, I am not trying to insult anyone - this is honestly the way I see it!
Paul never speaks of the rapture is that passage. He is speaking of the change from being mortal to being immortal. That happens before the rapture does.
Paul's intent here is to address how people become immortal. He mentioned how the dead become immortal and he mentions how the living become immortal. The rapture is not mentioned once.
I have a couple questions pertaining to what you've put.
To me, the above verse, saying, "...Satan, the one deceiving [present participle] the whole world...," sounds like it's referring to that which Satan "does" (is ever occupied with) even before he will be "cast down" unto the earth (when there will be "1260 days" remaining until Christ's "return" to the earth / Rev19)... doesn't it sound so? I mean, like this verse isn't suggesting this is what he'll do ONLY AFTER being "cast down" unto the earth and his angels cast out with him (when "1260 days" will be remaining). Thoughts?
My question here is, are you saying that "the woman" is identified as "the whole world"... or that "the woman" is identified more narrowly, and that you mean she ("the woman" in this text) is a part of the whole rest of the world which will also be deceived (or at least as Satan's objective anyway)... ?
I am uncertain of your meaning, by the way you've written it above, so I wondered (I'm curious how you're seeing this). Thanks. = )
[and please excuse my dense-ness
]
Matthew 24 is referring to this same prophecy in Zechariah 14. Read the whole chapters! It is CLEAR they are speaking about the same thing. It is in the isolation of verses that false doctrine originates--the books of the bible never had chapters and verses until the 16th century.
Zechariah 14
14 A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake[a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
Matthew 24 (know this--Christ is coming suddenly, but not secretly--and the taken are compared to those 'taken' in the flood)
24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’[b]
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
The Day and Hour Unknown
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins
I thank you for your honesty and it's a pleasure to discuss this with someone who has this right attitude.
Of course I'm pre-trib, and I can tell you the gaps I see being filled by the post-trib camp.
No where in scripture does it say the Church goes through the tribulation, the post-trib theory assumes that! They have absolutely no proof of this, it is total conjecture.
The post-trib theory does not allow for the gap of the 7 years during the tribulation. Meaning if all are resurrected at the Second Coming there will be no natural bodies left on earth for reproduction. The 7 year gap seen in the pre-trib theory allows for reproduction to be possible on earth during the 1000 year reign and into the Perfect Age.
There are several other things that I don't want to bring up now, but later.
That could be and it could be you are running with conjecture. I'm bringing out the negatives of the post view slowly but surly so we can discuss them. The latest is the 7 year gap I have presented, and there will be more!
You mean like how:
--Matthew 24:29-31 correlates with Isaiah 27:9,12-13 (note WHO and TO WHERE and IN WHAT MANNER, etc)... considering also that v.9 correlates with Romans 11:27 (not to mention the prophecy in Daniel 9 ["determined upon THY people and upon THY holy city"] and its connection with Daniel 12 [note "thy people" in v.1 speaks specifically of "Israel" too])... and numerous other passages I've put in past posts on this particular point...
...noting there is NO "SNATCH" [/rapture (IN THE AIR)] being referenced in any of the above...
... all the while "post-tribbers" insist that Matthew 24:29-31 IS the "rapture" (with no evidence of this being the case, when one considers ALL related passages connected with this [there are tons more I've not put here]... which I see "post-tribbers" completely ignoring)
Not what I'm seeing take place... [ditto the above, instead
]
This makes no sense. I am 100 percent right the rapture isn't mentioned there. Paul only discusses how people become immortal in that passage. Yes, the rapture happens after the living are changed but the change happens first and Paul doesn't get into what happens next in that passage.
