How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[GaryA]

I really am a mess today.

Maybe, I've had too much MilkyWay for the day...lol

Are you making a mess of your milk chocolate today?

 

[Laura798]

Ooops....
@Laura798 I should have used originally there instead of actually...

Now I've got people thinking he is from the UK....

I really am a mess today.

Maybe, I've had too much MilkyWay for the day...lol

This might help.

 

[1ofthem]

No - born-and-raised in the good 'ole U.S.A.

Really?

Seems people think you are from the UK... for some reason.

I don't know why, though...I promise (fingers crossed)

Anyways...sorry to the rest of you guys for interrupting this thread.

 

[1ofthem]

This might help.

So are you saying I should just STOP IT....

That's brilliant.

I'm seriously going to take that advice and just Stop It...lol

It's been fun. I'm out for a while, though so have a good evening, and thanks for the laughs.

I'm going to try to go look into that whole spider ordeal later when time permits.

 

[iTheophilus]

He said the " not one hair will be harmed" to the disciples.
Most were killed violently by satan.

You will be martyred in the gt.
No believer survives.
Unless you take the mark

Consider:

But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

- Mark 13:9-13 (KJV)

How can you ENDURE TO THE END if you've already been killed? No, that doesn’t make sense, @Absolutely

 

[ewq1938]

Pretrib has made all of this so abundantly clear

By contradicting itself when it claims the whole church is raptured yet a very important part of the church remains to go through the Great Tribulation. By rejecting what dictionaries say the definition of Apostasia is. By rejecting Paul's placement of the rapture at the one and only second coming. By inventing more than one more coming of Christ. There's more but it would just be ignored as these facts shall be.

 

[ewq1938]

How can you ENDURE TO THE END if you've already been killed? No, that doesn’t make sense, @Absolutely

Plus what kind of achievement is accomplished by "enduring" in heaven where there is no danger? Enduring til the end is something special when you endured through Great Tribulation like the 144k etc.

 

[Charlie24]

Hi Charlie,

There's a bit of a problem with your statement--who will the anti-Christ be revealed to? The 'world' will wonder after him and think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread--they will be deceived by him; there is only one group who will know who He is and that will be the Believers. It's so important to note that those scriptures are spoken to us--to warn us--unbelievers are not reading the scriptures. The identity of the individual--that is his name, is inconsequential--what is importantis that we, the believers will recognize that he is the antichrist spoken of in Revelation.

"Revelation 13:3, NIV: "One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast."--Revelation 13:13

Scripture to test scripture--isolation of verses leads to false doctrine. It's all one big tapestry--not separate bits of yarn--it is all woven together to tell God's story of redemption.

But also leaves Christians like two witnesses? The Holy Spirit is within them so the church isn't gone nor is the Holy Spirit. The two witnesses and those who are beheaded give a testimony of Christ through the Great Tribulation proving the church is very much going through the Great Tribulation.

Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The Church, and I'm speaking of the true believers, not everyone who claims to be Christian is a true believer, they will not be here for the tribulation. But the ones who said they believed in the Lord and actually didn't, they will be here along with the straight out Christ rejecters.

But now those who are left will have to lay down their lives for Christ or be doomed to eternal hell. There will be many who will be martyrs for Christ at that time. The post-tribs believe this is the Church, they are sadly mistaken. The Church is never even mentioned in all of the events of the tribulation, that should tell you something.

 

[lamad]

Agree with most that you said but satan is cast out of heaven before he goes off to start the war against Christians ie: the Great Tribulation.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


That's an unknown amount of time from being cast out to starting that war. We don't know how long but there might be a clue here:

I believe satan was cast out in the third trump.

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great
star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the
third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the
third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the
waters, because they were made bitter.




This is satan. he is that great star which burned like a
lamp...brightness...thats what his name also means:

lucifer
1966

01966 heylel {hay-lale'}

from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m

AV - Lucifer 1; 1

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon


He was the shining morning star...so when he is cast out he is
described as a great star that was shining brightly like a lamp when
he fell.

Wormwood is also a reference to satan because he is bitterness and is
poison to gods children. there is no other that the third trump can
be speaking of.


Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall
from heaven.



lightning
796

796 astrape {as-trap-ay'}

from 797; TDNT - 1:505,86; n f

AV - lightning 8, light shining 1; 9

1) lightning
1a) of the gleam of a lamp


"the gleam of a lamp"

Revelation 8:10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the
third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Revelation 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the
waters, because they were made bitter.

"burning as it were a lamp"

Christ himself documenting satans fall in the 3rd trump.


Rev 12 also clearly documents satan being cast out BEFORE the first
beast NWO system rises, and before satan takes control of that world
system as the Ac in Rev 13.

So what could satan be doing before the 6th trump? he is setting up
his organization behind the scenes, waiting for when the world is
perfectly ripe to receive him. He casts out a flood of lies to ready
the world to accept his deception. this all takes planning and satan
is very cunning and will have everything ready by the time the 6th
trump sounds.

I believe satan was cast out in the third trump. Imagination only.

ANY THEORY that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong. You are trying to move the war in heaven. Leave it where it belongs.

Did you not notice that a VERY significant event happens at the 7th trumpet? It was the tranfer of earth's kingdoms from Satan to Jesus Christ. Did you ever wonder what changed to allow that transfer to happen? It was a LEGAL transfer in the courtroom of heaven. Since John does not tell us, I can only guess, but ancient Jewish sages wrote that man would rule earth for 6 thousand years, and God would rule earth for the 7th thousand years. I believe Adam was therefore given a 6000 year lease on earth, and at the 7th trumpet, the 6000 year lease expires. Suddenly Satan is left with NO LEGAL HOLD to the lease he usurped, since the lease exired. So the kingdoms of the earth are taken from Satan and given to Jesus Christ, and Michael goes after Satan to kick him out of the high places. Perhaps we could say, Michael takes away Satan's wings. He will no longer be able to fly.

Therefore, a theory that this happens at the third trump fails.

 

[lamad]

Plus what kind of achievement is accomplished by "enduring" in heaven where there is no danger? Enduring til the end is something special when you endured through Great Tribulation like the 144k etc.

You missed it again. The 144000 are seen in heaven in Chapter 14, before the days of GT.

Of course that that endure to the end will have survived the days of GT.

 

[peldom10]

"""Does this imply that the church is about to fly away and vanish? No. It means that those who have the seal of God in their forehead..."
Nope
Only the 144k get sealed in their forehead.

""", but Christ also tells Satan not to touch a single hair on their heads"""
Uh...all but John died violent brutal deaths...were killed by satan.

On top of that the ac is EMPOWERED to kill christians.
The chuch age ends pretrib at the rapture.
That is how the ac martyrs ALL REFUSING THE MARK.

ALL believers die in the trib.

Rev 14 is the last group gathered and they are Jews. That is about mid trib.

That would be those who become followers of Christ.......since the rapture.

The Bible says things get so horrible the 2nd advent of Christ is hastened or all would be killed.

 

[DavidTree]

That would be those who become followers of Christ.......since the rapture.

The Bible says things get so horrible the 2nd advent of Christ is hastened or all would be killed.

That would be preaching a false gospel since Christ will leave none of His behind.

It is impossible for a pre-trib rapture since it is not found in Scripture.

It is impossible for a pre-trib rature since Scripture says that the Resurrection comes First at His Second Coming.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

NOT ONE TRUMPET blast in Revelation chapters 1 thru 7.

The Trumpets begin in chapter 8

The 7th Trumpet is declared but not sounded here in chapter 10 verse 7

but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound,
the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Chapter 11:15
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

 

[Laura798]

The Church, and I'm speaking of the true believers, not everyone who claims to be Christian is a true believer, they will not be here for the tribulation. But the ones who said they believed in the Lord and actually didn't, they will be here along with the straight out Christ rejecters.

But now those who are left will have to lay down their lives for Christ or be doomed to eternal hell. There will be many who will be martyrs for Christ at that time. The post-tribs believe this is the Church, they are sadly mistaken. The Church is never even mentioned in all of the events of the tribulation, that should tell you something.

Charlie,

What I find curious is that people 'see' things in scripture that simply isn't there--to say the church isn't in Revelation is like saying all the letters of the apostles that begin with a greeting are not actually to believers because the 'church' is never mentioned again by name. The 7 letters are to the churches--then it goes on to tell what is going to happen in the last days before Christ's coming--it is a WARNING. There is zero reason for the rest of the story to be there if it doesn't pertain to the church

Who do you think the bible was written to, if not believers--who is warned about enduring until the end, why is the reader warned of the anti-christ and the mark of the beast--you know why? So that we will be ready for the tribulation that is coming on the earth. The only ones who can be fooled by a false Messiah are those that think Jesus will come to earth secretly and/or believe in a literal millennial reign (which is nowhere to be found in scripture). Those of us who believe the literal verses of scripture know Christ came once to die and then the Judgment--He only comes twice--that is why it is called the Second Coming. He knew false doctrine would abound and that is why He said,

"…22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short. 23At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.…"--Matthew 24:23

and cut short mean if the tribulation were to continue we would all be destroyed.

" 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ 30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.…"--Matthew 24:29-30

ALL will see Him coming--He is coming suddenly, He is not coming in secret!

 

[oyster67]

1) Departure......then revealed
2)With holder removed.....then revealed
3)Power holding him back removed.....then revealed


Something taken...... declared 3 times.....then revealed.

Once we simplify it.....we unpack it.

Yes, at beginning of Trib...

2 Thessalonians
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:...

then at mid Trib...

...only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,...

and then at end of end of Trib...

...whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[DavidTree]

You missed it again. The 144000 are seen in heaven in Chapter 14, before the days of GT.

Of course that that endure to the end will have survived the days of GT.

They are not raptured Saints. You do not even know who the 144k are.

 

[ewq1938]

The Church, and I'm speaking of the true believers, not everyone who claims to be Christian is a true believer, they will not be here for the tribulation.

That's false. There are true believers described in Revelation 2, 13, 11 and 20 who went through the tribulation!

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie,

What I find curious is that people 'see' things in scripture that simply isn't there--to say the church isn't in Revelation is like saying all the letters of the apostles that begin with a greeting are not actually to believers because the 'church' is never mentioned again by name. The 7 letters are to the churches--then it goes on to tell what is going to happen in the last days before Christ's coming--it is a WARNING. There is zero reason for the rest of the story to be there if it doesn't pertain to the church

Who do you think the bible was written to, if not believers--who is warned about enduring until the end, why is the reader warned of the anti-christ and the mark of the beast--you know why? So that we will be ready for the tribulation that is coming on the earth. The only ones who can be fooled by a false Messiah are those that think Jesus will come to earth secretly and/or believe in a literal millennial reign (which is nowhere to be found in scripture). Those of us who believe the literal verses of scripture know Christ came once to die and then the Judgment--He only comes twice--that is why it is called the Second Coming. He knew false doctrine would abound and that is why He said,

"…22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short. 23At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible.…"--Matthew 24:23

and cut short mean if the tribulation were to continue we would all be destroyed.

" 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ 30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.…"--Matthew 24:29-30

ALL will see Him coming--He is coming suddenly, He is not coming in secret!

Where is your verse that makes this verse null and void? Show me your verse that says the Church will go through the tribulation? If you can't, then who is seeing things in scripture that's not there?

Rev. 3:10

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

 

[ewq1938]

You missed it again. The 144000 are seen in heaven in Chapter 14, before the days of GT.

You don't know what you are talking about. What is found in Revelation 14 is not before the Great Tribulation. Mt Sion is also not in heaven, it's outside of Jerusalem.

 

[Laura798]

Ooops....
@Laura798 I should have used originally there instead of actually...

Now I've got people thinking he is from the UK....

I really am a mess today.

Maybe, I've had too much MilkyWay for the day...lol

I don't consider a mistaken nationality a mess; leaving clothes on the floor when company is coming, telling someone there hair reminds you of a dairy queen dip cone, or forgetting your wife's birthday and anniversary--all in the same week--now those are messes.

And it's not such a bad mistake, After all they decided not to be part of the EU, plus they have the BBC and the British Museum and the Queen--is it because they're known for bad teeth and food?

PS I used to work as a nanny for a venture capitalist from the UK--he had great teeth AND he was an amazing cook! Plus he was a really sharp dresser.

 

[oyster67]

He only comes twice--that is why it is called the Second Coming. He knew false doctrine would abound and that is why He said,

We generally don't call the Pre-Trib Rapture His Second Coming, though it be true that we do meet Him in clouds. We have the precious promise that we shall not be here to endure the time of Jacob's Troubles.