Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Laura798]

I've already done the "word searches" many years ago when I studied both sides of the argument and confirmed that what you are saying is indeed incorrect!

"The one who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know."--1st Corinthians 8:2

It appears you may have missed these verses in your 'much studying'

• “Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him!” (Romans 5:9).
• “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness.” (Romans 1:18).
• “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.” (Romans 2:5).
• “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them” (John 3:36).

 

[FreeGrace2]

Uh...wow...
You are getting all messed up and ...once again refuting Jesus EXAMPLE of instruction.

Again, one of your own even refutes your own messed up forcing a "type" into Noah's account.

 

[awelight]

So much time and energy is spent on the "Rapture" but is this really the important element of Eschatology? I find that the real problem is on the "Millennial" age to come. In particular the Amillennial vs. the Premillennial view. The Historist vs. the Futurist point of view.

One view is workable and the other destroys "the promises" of God towards Israel. Since Israel is involved, the subject becomes of paramount concern to the believer. How can God be trusted, if He can cast off the promises given to Israel? How do we know, that He will not do the same concerning the church? Many Amillennialist, do not see this particular danger. Any breach in God's Promises, because of what the people did, introduces doubt into the mind of the believer. We know whom it is, that wishes for believers to have doubt.

The Amillennialist view, places the promises of God, towards Israel, upon a "conditional" architecture but they profess that Salvation's Promises are upon an "unconditional" architecture. We must ask, Is God Sovereign or not? Can that which is created thwart the Creator? BOTH are unconditional Promises. Israel could no more upset God's plan, than the local church can upset God's plan.

Many today, say that Eschatology is not worth "dividing" over but I believe that any subject, that teaches God has forsaken His chosen people and will not carry out the promises given, is very dangerous.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok lets use your refuting of my examples of Lot and baby Jesus removed prejudgement

Where do you get the wild idea that God rained judgment on Israel to protect Jesus? Could you quote any verse that supports your theory? In fact, Jesus was most likely at least 2 years old when Herod wanted to kill Him. That's why he ordered all males 2 and below to be killed. And most likely, there weren't that many children 2 and under in the area that Jesus lived.

Lets agree with your superior assesment that lot was not removed but stayed in sodom where he was protected.

Well, you are AGAIN very wrong. I never said that Lot "stayed in sodom". You either can't comprehend plain language or you prefer to make up a lot of stuff.

I did note that Lot left the AREA, but NOT earth.

Please show us your verse.

What a hypocrite! I've been asking that of you forever. And you don't answer with verses. I've given you EVERY verse needed that proves that the singular resurrection, which includes a rapture, occurs at the Second Advent.

And where The baby Jesus stayed and was protected from the slaughter.
He never left for egypt. He stayed and was protected correct..?

Amazing. Again, I never said what you are lying about here.

Do show us your changes to the bible please.

Since YOU made the charge that I have, YOU provide us the evidence that I did.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Me. "Show me where he ( noah) did not rise up into the clouds."

Fg. "Prove that he did. lol"

This is ignorance gone to seed.

Exactly; claiming that Noah was a mile up in the clouds.

Ok lets once again play out your ridiculous objections.

Your deal must go something like this..."Noah even though the surface Of the water covered the highest mountain. Was never atop those waters.
His boat stayed right there on earth.
He never rose into the clouds via the flood waters."

You have FAILED to prove that Noah and boat was a mile up and in clouds. Where is the verse to support that wild claim?

And I never said the boat stayed "right there on earth". I wish you could read better. But it is what it is.

I said the ark was floating on water that was ON the earth.

That is where false doctrine leads.

I agree. So knock it off, all that forcing of your fantasy "types" into accounts that don't have them.

You have made a fool of yourself.

Look.in.mirror.when/saving.that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Me. "BOTH ( noah, lot) GATHERED PRETRIB.
AS WAS THE BABY JESUS.
Make that into something else."

Fg "How about just quoting verses rather than capitalizing what you "think" they say."

Facepalm.

Right. Do that again and again. Because you just REFUSE to provide any verse that supports your wild claims. Because you don't have any.

You voted for biden didnt you?

You seem more unaware than ever.

So now you're down to the bottom of the barrel for your silly snarky retorts.

 

[lamad]

I find it very interesting: testimony after testimony of those who have seen heaven and have been prayed back to their bodies, speak that the next big event heaven is waiting for is the saints coming to heaven as in the pretrib rapture. I have a large stack of books on people that have seen heaven and returned to earth to give their testimony, and I have read online of more. I have yet to hear anyone who has been to heaven to teach a rapture at the end of the trib - NOT ONE.

No problem for posttribbers: they won't believe any testimony that disagrees with their theory - even if the testimonies are truth.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I get it: YOU are allowed to explain verses [meaning change what they really say] , but pretribbers are not allowed.

OK, let's discuss this wild claim. I quote verses that actually SAY what I claim. I haven't had to "change what they really say" in any way.

I just quote them. Unlike you guys.

And, btw, you have every freedom to address the verses I share and to explain them yourself to PROVE that they don't say what I claim.

Well, have you? No, you haven't. So the burden of proof is on you to refute my verses. As I've easily done with all your verses.

How can a Greek Aorist verb show something ABOUT to happen? It has no tense or timing included.

Please show me where I said that.

Anyone can claim John's use of Aorist verbs are either past tense or future tense. The truth is, they have no tense.

Tell that to biblehub.com and any lexicon that parses the Greek. All verbs have a tense. Claiming otherwise is ignorance.

Just as you are doing, some want to mess with the timing of Wrath and say it is just about to come, but not in chapter 6 - it comes later.

Show me where I said any such thing. I made clear what my opinion was on the timing.

I guess you don't read much

Your guesses are just as wrong as your opinions and claims are.

or just don't believe the testimonies of the many who have died, gone to heaven, SAW with their own eyes the preparations for the marriage supper - tables spread as far as the eye can see along the River of life. Each table has chairs and NAMES of the saints who are to sit there. Some of these people have seen this and been told the preparations are all finished - heaven is now just waiting on the saints to arrive. These people got prayed back to their bodies so had to leave heaven.

So you believe the hallucinators, huh. Or maybe just dreamers. Doesn't matter.

Since these testimonies AGREE with scripture, I believe them.

OK, let's go there. In the previous paragraph you mentioned preparations such as tables spread, chairs with names, etc.

So, if THAT all agrees with Scripture, then it should be very easy to find the verses so you can QUOTE them. Not something you do very often. But give it a try. Again, prove your claims. With Scripture.

I'll bet you CAN'T find any verse that supports what those hallucinators/dreamers have said.

Here is one such testimony: 7 Columbia youths visited heaven: "We also could see the wedding banquet table, everything was already served. It had no beginning or end. We saw the chairs prepared for us. There was also crowns of eternal life that are ready to be taken by us. We saw delicious foods that are already set, for all of those that will be invited to the Wedding of the Lamb. "

Dream on.

Here is another: Testimony of an 8 year old girl:

We then arrived in a beautiful place where I could see the glory of God, and feel His Power. It was a big beautiful place. I saw many tables, so I asked the Lord, "Lord what are all these tables are for?" He said, "Servant, remember the Wedding of the Lamb, remember that on these tables we will celebrate the Wedding of the Lamb." I saw countless numbers of tables, and I could not see the end of them. There were angels at each table, so I asked the Lord, "Lord, why is there an angel at each table and at each chair?" The Lord said, "My servant, these angels are decorating the tables, these angels are getting ready each table because I am already preparing everything."

8 y/o dreamer or hallucinator.

I am convinced, you WANT to be left behind to face God's wrath.

This couldn't be a more stupid claim. I am simply convinced by what the Bible SAYS. Unlike yourself, who has NO verses that unequivocally show Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

I believe what IS written in the Bible.

You believe what ISN'T written in the Bible.

What can God do for people that insist on this? I think He will allow it. God honors our faith.

Another unsubstantiated claim. Where does the Bible say that God "honors our faith". That is just maudlin emotionalism.

God honors Himself. And glorifies Himself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is not odd...you speak of before death and resurrection and I speak after His death and resurrection.
A world of difference.

Prove the importance of the difference. By that I mean from the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I've already done the "word searches" many years ago when I studied both sides of the argument and confirmed that what you are saying is indeed incorrect!

If you really did the word searches a long time ago and are pretrib, could you point me to the verse or verses that show Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven? I'd appreciate that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I find it very interesting: testimony after testimony of those who have seen heaven and have been prayed back to their bodies, speak that the next big event heaven is waiting for is the saints coming to heaven as in the pretrib rapture. I have a large stack of books on people that have seen heaven and returned to earth to give their testimony, and I have read online of more. I have yet to hear anyone who has been to heaven to teach a rapture at the end of the trib - NOT ONE.

No problem for posttribbers: they won't believe any testimony that disagrees with their theory - even if the testimonies are truth.

Your problem is taking these "testimonies" at face value. You need to show verses that align with what is being claimed. But of course you can't.

All tha stuff about tables, chairs and name labels are NOT found in the Bible.

It's either hallucinations or dreams.

 

[Charlie24]

"The one who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know."--1st Corinthians 8:2

It appears you may have missed these verses in your 'much studying'

• “Since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through Him!” (Romans 5:9).
• “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness.” (Romans 1:18).
• “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.” (Romans 2:5).
• “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them” (John 3:36).

You're making a good case for pre-trib! Now if you can just understand what Paul is telling the true Church believers!

1 Thes. 5:9

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

After explaining the Rapture, Paul tells us how to escape this wrath by faith!

 

[Charlie24]

Your problem is taking these "testimonies" at face value. You need to show verses that align with what is being claimed. But of course you can't.

All tha stuff about tables, chairs and name labels are NOT found in the Bible.

It's either hallucinations or dreams.

Be glad to when you show us the verse that says the Church will go through the tribulation and be resurrected at the Second coming.

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple

1Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

3Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Great Tribulation

15“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.<believers will go thru the trib!
23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand.
26“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. <when does he gather the elect? AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
The Parable of the Fig Tree
32“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So you also, when you see all these things, know that [e]it is near—at the doors! 34Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

"""31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. <when does he gather the elect? AFTER THE TRIBULATION."""

yes ANGELS gather...NOT JESUS.

FROM HEAVEN...not earth.

so yes...you posted an example that has nothing to do with the rapture.

 

[Absolutely]

Dear Charlie--those are your own words, spoken from what you've been taught. We all know judgment is coming on the earth and it is the FINAL JUDGMENT Christ is speaking of. Again--best to do a word search--and along with that pray that the scales of deception will fall off your eyes--"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."--1 John 4:1

nope
He was directly referring to the gt.

I do realize that conflicts with what you need it to say.

 

[Absolutely]

Exactly. Tribulation is what happens on the earth prior to Christ's return. Wrath is God's judgment on the wicked and the unbelievers at His Coming.

So the 4 horsemen are no big deal?

The wrath they bring upon the earth?

AHEM...SENT FROM HEAVEN BY JESUS.

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple

1Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

3Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Great Tribulation

15“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.<believers will go thru the trib!
23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand.
26“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. <when does he gather the elect? AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
The Parable of the Fig Tree
32“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So you also, when you see all these things, know that [e]it is near—at the doors! 34Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Show me the rapture AFTER the gt.

Never have any of you found a verse.

You do know you need noah gathered AFTER THE FLOOD.?
...and Lot removed AFTER HIS CITY BURNED?

Was Jesus mistaken?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Be glad to when you show us the verse that says the Church will go through the tribulation and be resurrected at the Second coming.

otoh, it's pretribbers who have the burden of proof (verses) that show Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven. Because that's what you claim and that's what you over-emphasize. And not found in the Bible.

Instead, the Bible teaches plainly that there is just ONE resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that?

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.

Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'

To recap, there is:

1. ONE resurrection of the saved. All of them. From Adam on.
2. This ONE resurrection occurs after the Trib martyrs are resurrected, which proves the SINGULAR resurrection of "those who belong to Him" is when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

 

[Absolutely]

Exactly. Tribulation is what happens on the earth prior to Christ's return. Wrath is God's judgment on the wicked and the unbelievers at His Coming.

so you are saying that lot stayed for some of the city being burned and was protected, a kinda "no big deal small fire" ....but then came the gasoline from God and lot was removed prior to the " big fire"?

And noah had to swim for his boat mid flood because the first part of the flood was only half a mile deep, and noah and his family hold up on a mountain till God made the ark float by?
He was protected mid flood, then came the ark to deliver him before the " big flood"?

Is that the result of this trib vs wrath midway escape?

 

[Absolutely]

Be glad to when you show us the verse that says the Church will go through the tribulation and be resurrected at the Second coming.

Never in 40 years of my own study have they done that.