It is not odd...you speak of before death and resurrection and I speak after His death and resurrection.
A world of difference.
Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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It is not odd...you speak of before death and resurrection and I speak after His death and resurrection.
A world of difference.
If it is not part of God's plan for mankind....then who's plan is it? Remember vials and cups are poured out from Heaven. Not from God?
That's a story of how we ended where we are, beginning at Adam and Eve, to the present day. We're in a fallen world under a curse where everyone is sinful and evil. That wasn't God's plan was it?
To make any tribulation God's wrath is to imply the church is currently under the wrath of God which the Bible says we are not appointed to. As you can see, many theological problems arise out of that false pretense.
Tribulation comes from other sources such as people and the devil. God's wrath is an act of God's Himself. There is a difference and it's pre-requisite to know this difference to understand eschatology.
Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple
1Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age
3Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
4And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for [a]all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The Great Tribulation
15“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.<believers will go thru the trib!
23“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand.
26“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The Coming of the Son of Man
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. <when does he gather the elect? AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
The Parable of the Fig Tree
32“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So you also, when you see all these things, know that [e]it is near—at the doors! 34Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Exactly. Tribulation is what happens on the earth prior to Christ's return. Wrath is God's judgment on the wicked and the unbelievers at His Coming.
More nonsensical statements which can be refuted by Scripture: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile... Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you (Rom 2:8,9; 2 Thess 1:6)
Where does all this come from other than from God? "Wrath" and "tribulation" are there side by side to show the naysayers their error. It is God who sends tribulation as we can see in 2 Thess 1:6
The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are all a part of divine judgments under the 6th and 7th seals of Revelation. They are fully described in that book.
"The Tribulation" -- a period of divine judgment -- is unique (Dan 12:1). It should not be confused with the trials, troubles, and tribulations of Christians.
So you are saying the great tribulation is not the wrath of God on the sin of man who is not justified by faith.
When Jesus explains all that happens in the great tribulation, He then says in Luke 21:36,
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."
"Escape from what, Laura? How does one escape these things that Jesus says will come to pass?
Good morning Charlie,
Ah...worthy to escape the JUDGEMENT. The time being cut short means if He didn't, the earth would be destroyed before His coming!
I suggest doing a word search for both. Tribulation is specific to the end times--see my post of Matthew 24. The two have been so much equated in pre-trib believing churches, that those listening see them as one and the same, but they are not.
There can be no mistake that Jesus is speaking of the great tribulation and by faith in Him escaping from it! In other words He is confirming what He said in Rev. 3:10, that "you have kept the faith and I will keep you from the judgement that will come on this earth.
Your talking point is typical of the post-trib belief that denies the wrath of God on this world after the church is taken away!
Dear Charlie--those are your own words, spoken from what you've been taught. We all know judgment is coming on the earth and it is the FINAL JUDGMENT Christ is speaking of. Again--best to do a word search--and along with that pray that the scales of deception will fall off your eyes--"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."--1 John 4:1
No you got that all wrong. Again, you're conflating a variety of different things with God's wrath. Indignation is not wrath, tribulation is not wrath, anguish is not wrath. You don't just get to cherry pick what you decide is God's wrath.
In your false doctrine, you have the church (followers of Christ) going through God's wrath because you insist any tribulation is God's wrath, but the Bible refutes you.
The church is not appointed to wrath:
1 Thessalonians 5:9
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Jesus said great tribulation will be shortened to save His elect from death:
Matthew 24:21-22
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Jesus told His followers they will have tribulation in the world:
John 16:33
33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
The church is raptured out pre-wrath at the 6th seal:
Isaiah 13:9-11
9Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Revelation 6:12-17
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
I've already done the "word searches" many years ago when I studied both sides of the argument and confirmed that what you are saying is indeed incorrect!
FreeGrace2 said:
Never even tried. But why do you reject so much Scripture?
You still don't have any unambiguous verses that actually describing Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.
It doesn't exist.
Never even tried. But why do you reject so much Scripture?
The bride/groom dynamic does NOT relate to Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven. Just doesn't. No matter how hard you would like it to.
You still don't have any unambiguous verses that actually describing Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.
It doesn't exist.
So now you're going to use Webster's dictionary to prove something???? lol
So what? Nothing about Noah being taken to heaven. Nothing about meeting Jesus in the air/clouds.
Again, you have nothing. Show me where the Bible uses Noah as a "type" for your "rapture".
(Not that you will actually acknowledge.)
"The woman gathered up her children and left in the car."
Postribber;
" no she didnt, they all walked over and got in"
Facepalm[/QUOTE]
You should be doing a whole lot of that.
I have two observations, if you would not mind.
First, keep praying and learning on the subject of Eschatology. You mean well but you have not yet learned, to properly separate the future prophecies that apply to Israel and those for the Church.
Second, Do not judge others for their choices in life. Each believer, has the right to choose certain things within the confines of Christian Liberty. If you do not desire to watch TV, that is your choice, however, another may see it differently. You may decide to become a vegetarian but that does not mean that others sin because they eat meat. You may hate modern music but it is not wrong, if others choose otherwise. You may celebrate Christmas but others do not.
Make a righteous Judgment.
Another testimony:
" There is another sister in Christ who was also taken to heaven and she also saw angels going back and forth preparing the wedding supper also! I told the Lord, “Why did this sister see angels preparing things here, but I don't see any preparations being done?” The Lord replied, “That is because all the preparations are complete!” "
There are crowns for all those who work and are obedient to the Lord. I then said, “Lord when are you coming back then, if all preparations are complete? How much longer till you return? Show me the clock, how much time is left in the heavenly clock?” Many other people have had dreams of a clock, showing almost midnight when the Lord is supposed to return. I asked, “Lord when will the clock strike midnight? Is it one minute left? five minutes?” Jesus studied my face for a moment, then He replied, “Ricardo, in heaven there is no more clock!” I then responded, “Well Lord, if there is no more time, why haven't you returned yet?” Jesus lifts his hands and takes his thumb and forefinger showing the sign for something very small and said, “All the time that is left is simply the Father's grace for those who have backslidden to offer them a chance to repent and do the first works.” And the Lord of Hosts hasn't returned because he has given us all a tiny space to repent and that time is called “A time of the Father's grace.” Jesus is coming at any moment, we must begin to seek Him with all our hearts and fast and pray and do the first works of old. I am almost finished. Jesus repeated, “We are on the time of God's grace!”
This is a part of his testimony most refuse to believe:
The Lord was here next to me and He told me, “Ricardo, this is what the rapture would look like if it happened right now!” I was then able to see the whole earth and the precious, beautiful Holy Spirit, the one who gives us peace and joy leave this earth. I then saw a vapor enter the church and surrounded me and I asked the Lord, “What's this?” He said, “This is what I call the Rapture.” I then saw people breaking down the church doors, wanting to come in, and shouting, “Where are my children? They are all gone!” All children of the earth were gone because God will not leave any behind. The first one to enter the church was the choir director, shouting, “Where's the church! I am left behind! I stayed! I stayed!” After the choir director, I saw other pastors and brothers and sisters and the overseer of the church all crying, “I was left behind!” Many parents and spouses were looking for their loved ones and the people in the church responded, “Your loved ones aren't here! The Lord took them.” Then these people would cry, “Then it was all true, Jesus came and took His bride!”
(Ricardo Cid)
" There is another sister in Christ who was also taken to heaven and she also saw angels going back and forth preparing the wedding supper also! I told the Lord, “Why did this sister see angels preparing things here, but I don't see any preparations being done?” The Lord replied, “That is because all the preparations are complete!” "
There are crowns for all those who work and are obedient to the Lord. I then said, “Lord when are you coming back then, if all preparations are complete? How much longer till you return? Show me the clock, how much time is left in the heavenly clock?” Many other people have had dreams of a clock, showing almost midnight when the Lord is supposed to return. I asked, “Lord when will the clock strike midnight? Is it one minute left? five minutes?” Jesus studied my face for a moment, then He replied, “Ricardo, in heaven there is no more clock!” I then responded, “Well Lord, if there is no more time, why haven't you returned yet?” Jesus lifts his hands and takes his thumb and forefinger showing the sign for something very small and said, “All the time that is left is simply the Father's grace for those who have backslidden to offer them a chance to repent and do the first works.” And the Lord of Hosts hasn't returned because he has given us all a tiny space to repent and that time is called “A time of the Father's grace.” Jesus is coming at any moment, we must begin to seek Him with all our hearts and fast and pray and do the first works of old. I am almost finished. Jesus repeated, “We are on the time of God's grace!”
This is a part of his testimony most refuse to believe:
The Lord was here next to me and He told me, “Ricardo, this is what the rapture would look like if it happened right now!” I was then able to see the whole earth and the precious, beautiful Holy Spirit, the one who gives us peace and joy leave this earth. I then saw a vapor enter the church and surrounded me and I asked the Lord, “What's this?” He said, “This is what I call the Rapture.” I then saw people breaking down the church doors, wanting to come in, and shouting, “Where are my children? They are all gone!” All children of the earth were gone because God will not leave any behind. The first one to enter the church was the choir director, shouting, “Where's the church! I am left behind! I stayed! I stayed!” After the choir director, I saw other pastors and brothers and sisters and the overseer of the church all crying, “I was left behind!” Many parents and spouses were looking for their loved ones and the people in the church responded, “Your loved ones aren't here! The Lord took them.” Then these people would cry, “Then it was all true, Jesus came and took His bride!”
(Ricardo Cid)
Actually, one of your very own has already done that, lamad.
In post 1575, he posted this about your so-called type.
"Perhaps you did not understand Jesus' point in bringing up Noah: it was ONLY to point out the suddeness of their destrcution: living life to the fullest (eating, drinking marrying...) right up to the day they died." [/QUOTE]
So I say the same thing to you. You seem clueless in Jesus' point in bringing up Noah. it was ONLY to point out the suddeness of their destruction." Bingo! At least some on your side with some discernment.
That WAS Jesus' ONLY point about Noah.
Since I agree with lamad about this, you still have no point. It WASN'T Jesus' intent, but you are vainly trying to make it His point.
Anyone can make claims about any text in the Bible and FORCE a "type" into it.
That's what I do. Maybe you should actually read my posts before making such an erroneous claim.
I've already challenged you to prove I've "changed the Bible" and blame it on man.
That's just a very silly claim. You haven't ever proved any of your claims.
Right!! like the rabbit trail of FORCING the Noah account into some kind of "type".
Where does the Bible say that Noah was floating a mile "into the clouds". There's IN FACT NO mention of clouds anywhere in the account.
Further, there's NO MENTION of Noah being "a mile up".
If you want to call floating in an ark in water which is ON ON ON the earth "leaving the earth" that's your business. But is ISN'T biblical business. You are so far off in your understanding.
I don't need anything. But you sure do. You need some discernment, in fact, a lot of it.
You could begin by NOT trying to force "types" into accounts that isn't the intent of the speaker.
FreeGrace2 said:
Never even tried. But why do you reject so much Scripture?
Amazing!! You have actually and unambiguously admitted that there are Scriptures that you DON'T APPROVE of. Unbelievable.
But at least you finally admitted what so many already know.
This explains WHY you've never bothered trying to exegete or offer an explanation of any of the verses that I've shared that prove unambiguously that there is ONLY ONE resurrection for the saved, and that it occurs at the Second Advent.
What we repeatedly DO refute is your TAKE on the verses you try to use to support your theory. That's a big difference.
The real rabbit trails here is your forcing a "rapture" into Noah's account, Lot's account and the parable of the 10 virgins.
Never even tried. But why do you reject so much Scripture?
Well, that's honest. I asked by you reject so much Scripture, and you claim that i have never posted ANY (Scripture) to approve of.
Amazing!! You have actually and unambiguously admitted that there are Scriptures that you DON'T APPROVE of. Unbelievable.
But at least you finally admitted what so many already know.
This explains WHY you've never bothered trying to exegete or offer an explanation of any of the verses that I've shared that prove unambiguously that there is ONLY ONE resurrection for the saved, and that it occurs at the Second Advent.
I have them. But, as you just pointed out, you don't "approve" of them.
Oh, no. I've never refuted the truth of the Bible. So it's impossible to "refute verses" as you seem to think.
What we repeatedly DO refute is your TAKE on the verses you try to use to support your theory. That's a big difference.
And I do that by using verses that clearly and unambiguously state the opposite of what you guys keep claiming.
Since "gather" is a biblical word and used TWICE in regard to the Second Coming (Matt 24, 2 Thess 2:1) it's not a rabbit trail. It's just a word that you admittedly don't "approve of", because it refutes your theory.
The real rabbit trails here is your forcing a "rapture" into Noah's account, Lot's account and the parable of the 10 virgins.
Right. It takes NO brains at all to "not approve of" any verse. Which you've just admitted to doing.