Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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This of course is not true, what you really mean is you do not understand these verses because you can't dig them out and put them together. Only those of God can do that, and some people of God get HOODWINKED like Peter did when he tried to Fight and cut a soldier's ear off, whilst Jesus had already told him not to fight, that his kingdom was not of this world. In other words, I can explain the whole book of Revelation in one rather larger post, stuff most can't get close to understanding, but it's the same way with the Rapture, you guys can't put it together, and that's your fault, not God's, you already think you know all the answers, but you don't. So, God has no chance of teaching you His full truth, because as God told me 5-6 years ago when my prayer was "Lord, why does the Church have many understandings of the Beast, the 144,000, the Harlot, etc., etc. when in these end times You promised to reveal all things".........And I got this from the Holy Spirit........ "Ron, you guys already know it all".
Sad again, you try pigeonholing God with numbers !! There will be two resurrections, one of those in Christ and one of those not in Christ, it's not about THE TIMING, is about THE TYPE. If you would just think a wee bit here(all it takes) you could see that Rev. 19 is not possible without a Pre Trib Rapture, BUT I can prove your own thesis wrong via the scriptures.
Even if you Mid/Post Wrath tribbers were right (You, of course, are not) then those who Jesus brings back with him, as Rev. 19 shows, had to have been Resurrected BEFORE those in Rev, 20:4 (Your THEORY is now TOAST).
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them(Church who CAME BACK with Jesus in Rev. 19): and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they(only those who refused the Mark of the Beast) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
So, those who married Jesus in Rev. 19, and came back with Jesus as Rev. 19 shows, are shown as DIFFERENT from this who was on the earth for the 70th-week tribulation and REFUSED the Mark of the Beast AND became Martyrs, ONLY THEY will live and reign with Jesus on this earth during the 1000 year reign. (this is way too easy..
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I just DESTROYED your thesis that all Resurrections have to happen at the exact same time, there is no TIME with God, stop trying to pigeonhole God into your four walls. God is speaking about TWO RESSURECTION via those in Christ and those NOT in Christ. Just like there is no such thing as only two Second Comings. Jesus was the Man in Linen in Daniel 12, Jesus was the Rock Israel followed in the Desert, Jesus was also I am that I am unto Moses. Jesus told Mary in John 20, TOUCH ME NOT for I have not yet ascended unto the Father. Mary merely touching Jesus would have profaned and defiled the Sacrificial Offering unto God the Father. But when Jesus showed up 8 days later, he told Doubting Thomas to put his hands/fingers into his wounds. Jesus went to Heaven, offered the sacrifice unto God became our once and for all sacrifice and our Royal Priest in Heaven then returned with the Gift of the Holy Spirit, 8 days later.
The Second Coming really means the Second Advent, Jesus came once as a Suffering Servant/Sacrificial Lamb, the next time he shows up on this earth for a period of time(the Second Advent) will be for the 1000 year reign where he will be deemed the Lord of lords and the King of kings.
Just proved this theory wrong.............mo use even debating this any longer.
Again you are very confused sir, you can't even understand that those resurrected in Rev. 20:4 CAN NOT be resurrected at the same time as those who returned with Jesus in Rev. 19. That is called TUNNEL VISION.
Sad again, you try pigeonholing God with numbers !! There will be two resurrections, one of those in Christ and one of those not in Christ, it's not about THE TIMING, is about THE TYPE. If you would just think a wee bit here(all it takes) you could see that Rev. 19 is not possible without a Pre Trib Rapture, BUT I can prove your own thesis wrong via the scriptures.
Even if you Mid/Post Wrath tribbers were right (You, of course, are not) then those who Jesus brings back with him, as Rev. 19 shows, had to have been Resurrected BEFORE those in Rev, 20:4 (Your THEORY is now TOAST).
Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them(Church who CAME BACK with Jesus in Rev. 19): and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they(only those who refused the Mark of the Beast) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
So, those who married Jesus in Rev. 19, and came back with Jesus as Rev. 19 shows, are shown as DIFFERENT from this who was on the earth for the 70th-week tribulation and REFUSED the Mark of the Beast AND became Martyrs, ONLY THEY will live and reign with Jesus on this earth during the 1000 year reign. (this is way too easy..
)I just DESTROYED your thesis that all Resurrections have to happen at the exact same time, there is no TIME with God, stop trying to pigeonhole God into your four walls. God is speaking about TWO RESSURECTION via those in Christ and those NOT in Christ. Just like there is no such thing as only two Second Comings. Jesus was the Man in Linen in Daniel 12, Jesus was the Rock Israel followed in the Desert, Jesus was also I am that I am unto Moses. Jesus told Mary in John 20, TOUCH ME NOT for I have not yet ascended unto the Father. Mary merely touching Jesus would have profaned and defiled the Sacrificial Offering unto God the Father. But when Jesus showed up 8 days later, he told Doubting Thomas to put his hands/fingers into his wounds. Jesus went to Heaven, offered the sacrifice unto God became our once and for all sacrifice and our Royal Priest in Heaven then returned with the Gift of the Holy Spirit, 8 days later.
The Second Coming really means the Second Advent, Jesus came once as a Suffering Servant/Sacrificial Lamb, the next time he shows up on this earth for a period of time(the Second Advent) will be for the 1000 year reign where he will be deemed the Lord of lords and the King of kings.
Just proved this theory wrong.............mo use even debating this any longer.
Again you are very confused sir, you can't even understand that those resurrected in Rev. 20:4 CAN NOT be resurrected at the same time as those who returned with Jesus in Rev. 19. That is called TUNNEL VISION.
No, he didn't you just do not understand the bible Randyk, THIS GENERATION is referring to the generation that sees ALL THE SIGNS, thus the LAST SIGN being the Sun and Moon going dark means the Jews who see the 70th-week SIGN will be THAT GENERATION who sees Jesus' return. Of course !! We agreed on very little on the other board, so I doubt you will start seeing these truths now, but hope springs eternal.
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So you never asked any why they "have a secret rapture"?
As a convinced post-tribber, I have NO need for a secret rapture. In fact, when Jesus returns at the Second Advent, it will be ANYTHING but a secret. "Every eye will see".
I do know that pre-tribbers need a secret rapture, kinda like the fiction series "left Behind". People just "disappearing" without anything else going on. Yeah. Right. Sure.
The whole problem with "rapture" is that it misses the bigger point. When Jesus comes back, He will be accompanied by ALL saints from Adam on, who will be resurrected BEFORE the living believers will be changed (given ressurrection bodies).
So, in percentages, the living believers will be a very small fraction of the saved who get resurrection bodies. The real focus should be on resurrection, NOT "rapture", which isn't even a biblical word.
So, do a word search on resurrection and see if you can find ANY reference of resurrected believers being taken to heaven.
Then let me know what verse or verses mentions that.
As a convinced post-tribber, I have NO need for a secret rapture. In fact, when Jesus returns at the Second Advent, it will be ANYTHING but a secret. "Every eye will see".
I do know that pre-tribbers need a secret rapture, kinda like the fiction series "left Behind". People just "disappearing" without anything else going on. Yeah. Right. Sure.
The whole problem with "rapture" is that it misses the bigger point. When Jesus comes back, He will be accompanied by ALL saints from Adam on, who will be resurrected BEFORE the living believers will be changed (given ressurrection bodies).
So, in percentages, the living believers will be a very small fraction of the saved who get resurrection bodies. The real focus should be on resurrection, NOT "rapture", which isn't even a biblical word.
So, do a word search on resurrection and see if you can find ANY reference of resurrected believers being taken to heaven.
Then let me know what verse or verses mentions that.
Well since you came out of the closet and admitted to your doctrine , please explain what you mean by "secret" rapture. we are all ears.
The rest of what you wrote is nothing but unsupported propaganda.
So now you think the word "rapture" is in the English Bible ? News flash for you, the bible wasn't written in English. Just trying to be helpful.
Oh and the word "Bible" isn't in there either, just thought i'd throw that in.
The rest of what you wrote is nothing but unsupported propaganda.
So now you think the word "rapture" is in the English Bible ? News flash for you, the bible wasn't written in English. Just trying to be helpful.
Oh and the word "Bible" isn't in there either, just thought i'd throw that in.
FreeGrace2 said:
1. There are NO verses showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. None. Think about it.
If there are ANy verses that teach that Jesus takes resurrected believers to heaven, please share. It seems you believe there are verses in which the "dots need connecting". Well, be my guest.
You really think so? Then study what Jesus said in Acts 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
So, according to your theory, which resurrection was Jesus referring to? Those "in Christ" or those "not in Christ"?
Then, after you figure that one out, consider what Paul said in Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
So, Paul, the greatest theologian in history, taught that there will be ONLY 2 resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
Then, after you try to figure that out, consider what else Paul wrote, in 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
So now you get to try to figure out just what does "those who belong to Him" refers to. Do ANY believers from the OT "belong to Christ"? Of course they do.
Just the opoposite is true. In that chapter, we find the Bride GETTING READY for the wedding supper. Just look at the actual wording.
Immediately following that, we find these same people, dressed exactly as they are described preparing for the wedding, accompanying Jesus to earth at the Second Advent.
It is very easy to make claims. It's a totally another thing to actually support your claims with evidence from Scripture.
So, instead of just making claims, go ahead and quote any verses that actually show Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. That will END all argument. Immediately.
Before you plug in the toaster, you need to AT LEAST think about the wording in Rev 19:9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
So, explain WHY John would write "blessed are those who ARE INVITED tao the wedding supper". The common view re: pretrib rapture is that the wedding supper occurs immediately when the resurrected/raptured believers are taken up to heaven.
If that were true, John would have written "blessed are those who WERE invited". Since it would have occurred 7 years previously.
But because the wedding supper hasn't occurred yet, John's words make total sense. They make no sense if the wedding occurred in heaven when the crowd came back to heaven.
How about a bit of honesty here? Let's look at v.5 as well. v.5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Please explain how the resurrection of the trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection, noting that both Jesus and Paul clearly indicated that there will be ONE resurrection of the saved and one for the unsaved.
It is I who am "pigeonholed" by God's Word. YES, there is only one resurrection of the saved. And Rev 20:5 calls the post trib resurrection of trib martyrs the FIRST resurrection, the only rational view is that the "rapture" occurs when Christ comew back to earth at the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered to him, (rapture) we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (refers back to v.1 and "the coming of our Lord) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Then YOU have a problem with what Jesus and Paul said. Jesus mentioned A resurrection of the saved in Luke 14:14 and Paul noted A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved.
There is ONLY ONE resurrection for saved people and one for the unsaved. Rev 20:5 SAYS that the post tribulation resurrection of Trib martyrs is the FIRST one. The one for the saved. And ALL of the saved.
Again, I repeat 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
So, you need to grapple with this: first, "when He comes". What else could he have meant than the Second Advent? Then, "those who belong to Him". Who would Paul have been referring to? Just the NT believers? Of course not. EVERY believer belongs to Him.
You have no evidence for your theories.
Just keep in mind 1 Cor 15:23. When He comes, those who belong to Him. That's all believers. Just as Rev 20:5 says. That resurrection is the FIRST resurrection.
We know that the SECOND resurrection will be for the Great White Throne judgment (Rev 20:11-15).
You have demonstrated your failure to understand the Scripture that refutes your theory.
1. There are NO verses showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. None. Think about it.
If there are ANy verses that teach that Jesus takes resurrected believers to heaven, please share. It seems you believe there are verses in which the "dots need connecting". Well, be my guest.
You really think so? Then study what Jesus said in Acts 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
So, according to your theory, which resurrection was Jesus referring to? Those "in Christ" or those "not in Christ"?
Then, after you figure that one out, consider what Paul said in Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
So, Paul, the greatest theologian in history, taught that there will be ONLY 2 resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
Then, after you try to figure that out, consider what else Paul wrote, in 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
So now you get to try to figure out just what does "those who belong to Him" refers to. Do ANY believers from the OT "belong to Christ"? Of course they do.
Just the opoposite is true. In that chapter, we find the Bride GETTING READY for the wedding supper. Just look at the actual wording.
Immediately following that, we find these same people, dressed exactly as they are described preparing for the wedding, accompanying Jesus to earth at the Second Advent.
It is very easy to make claims. It's a totally another thing to actually support your claims with evidence from Scripture.
So, instead of just making claims, go ahead and quote any verses that actually show Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. That will END all argument. Immediately.
Before you plug in the toaster, you need to AT LEAST think about the wording in Rev 19:9 - Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
So, explain WHY John would write "blessed are those who ARE INVITED tao the wedding supper". The common view re: pretrib rapture is that the wedding supper occurs immediately when the resurrected/raptured believers are taken up to heaven.
If that were true, John would have written "blessed are those who WERE invited". Since it would have occurred 7 years previously.
But because the wedding supper hasn't occurred yet, John's words make total sense. They make no sense if the wedding occurred in heaven when the crowd came back to heaven.
How about a bit of honesty here? Let's look at v.5 as well. v.5 - (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Please explain how the resurrection of the trib martyrs is the FIRST resurrection, noting that both Jesus and Paul clearly indicated that there will be ONE resurrection of the saved and one for the unsaved.
It is I who am "pigeonholed" by God's Word. YES, there is only one resurrection of the saved. And Rev 20:5 calls the post trib resurrection of trib martyrs the FIRST resurrection, the only rational view is that the "rapture" occurs when Christ comew back to earth at the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1-3
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (Second Advent) and our being gathered to him, (rapture) we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day (refers back to v.1 and "the coming of our Lord) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Then YOU have a problem with what Jesus and Paul said. Jesus mentioned A resurrection of the saved in Luke 14:14 and Paul noted A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved.
There is ONLY ONE resurrection for saved people and one for the unsaved. Rev 20:5 SAYS that the post tribulation resurrection of Trib martyrs is the FIRST one. The one for the saved. And ALL of the saved.
Again, I repeat 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
So, you need to grapple with this: first, "when He comes". What else could he have meant than the Second Advent? Then, "those who belong to Him". Who would Paul have been referring to? Just the NT believers? Of course not. EVERY believer belongs to Him.
You have no evidence for your theories.
Just keep in mind 1 Cor 15:23. When He comes, those who belong to Him. That's all believers. Just as Rev 20:5 says. That resurrection is the FIRST resurrection.
We know that the SECOND resurrection will be for the Great White Throne judgment (Rev 20:11-15).
You have demonstrated your failure to understand the Scripture that refutes your theory.
Don't you bother reading the posts of others before "responding". I asked you about why you think post tribbers have to have a secret rapture. I've never heard of that. I HAVE heard pretribbers speak of a secret rapture.
As to your snide remark about coming out of the closet, are you just trying to be cute or something? I've never been IN a closet.
This is about the easiest claptrap to say when you can't refute someone. Since you appear unable to engage in actual refutation, you might think about why you are posting here.
Well, this is beyond absurd. I never said it was. I pointed out that is isn't. The Bible word is "gathered" found in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2:1.
Really desperate to post, huh. Please don't share your wisdom with me about such obvious information.
As to your snide remark about coming out of the closet, are you just trying to be cute or something? I've never been IN a closet.
This is about the easiest claptrap to say when you can't refute someone. Since you appear unable to engage in actual refutation, you might think about why you are posting here.
Well, this is beyond absurd. I never said it was. I pointed out that is isn't. The Bible word is "gathered" found in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2:1.
Really desperate to post, huh. Please don't share your wisdom with me about such obvious information.
Yep, just keep making your brash claims. Why is it impossible? Can't you explain that?
2 Thess 2:1 actually says in very plain language that the Second Advent and gathering (rapture) occur together. I shared that in an earlier post to you.
Here's the FACT. There are NO verses that show Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven. Doesn't happen. f
In fact, Rev 19 shows the Bride getting ready for the wedding supper, and then immediately accompanying Christ to earth to end the Trib at the battle of Armageddon.
It is when Jesus comes to earth, ends the Trib, and sets up His Millennial kingdom, that the wedding supper occurs.
2 Thess 2:1 actually says in very plain language that the Second Advent and gathering (rapture) occur together. I shared that in an earlier post to you.
Here's the FACT. There are NO verses that show Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven. Doesn't happen. f
In fact, Rev 19 shows the Bride getting ready for the wedding supper, and then immediately accompanying Christ to earth to end the Trib at the battle of Armageddon.
It is when Jesus comes to earth, ends the Trib, and sets up His Millennial kingdom, that the wedding supper occurs.
The second coming, resurrection and rapture happen at almost the same time. In Revelation 21 the bride is New Jerusalem and she is already in heaven. Christ and the former dead and those living that were changed all will live on the Earth for the thousand years. After the GWTJ the Father will come to the Earth and live there with everyone. Even NJ descends out of heaven to be on the Earth forever. So, the home where the bridegroom and bride live in is actually the Earth, the new Earth to be specific.
