How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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If you look at the statement itself in grammatical terms - then, yes - it is suggesting a future event. But, that is not what I am talking about.
The whole statement, in conceptual terms, is being used as an indirect reference.
It would be a similar thing if someone wrote "when you see the twin towers fall (whoso readeth, let him understand)" as a method of pointing [your attention] to the 9/11 'event' and what transpired during that time.
You already know full well that what is being written about has already occurred.
The statement is not actually intended for the purpose of predicting a future event (because the reader knows with certainty that it is in the past); rather, it intends to direct your attention to the "details" associated wirh the 'event' that has been referenced.
The fact that you know with certainty an event has occurred - combined with the parenthetical phrase - "clues you in" to the alternate meaning accomplished through an indirect reference.
The true intent and meaning of the statement is not what is "on the face of it"; rather, it is a redirection through an indirect reference.
It is not as complicated as it sounds; only, I am trying to illustrate the idea with required detail to get it across.
The whole statement, in conceptual terms, is being used as an indirect reference.
It would be a similar thing if someone wrote "when you see the twin towers fall (whoso readeth, let him understand)" as a method of pointing [your attention] to the 9/11 'event' and what transpired during that time.
You already know full well that what is being written about has already occurred.
The statement is not actually intended for the purpose of predicting a future event (because the reader knows with certainty that it is in the past); rather, it intends to direct your attention to the "details" associated wirh the 'event' that has been referenced.
The fact that you know with certainty an event has occurred - combined with the parenthetical phrase - "clues you in" to the alternate meaning accomplished through an indirect reference.
The true intent and meaning of the statement is not what is "on the face of it"; rather, it is a redirection through an indirect reference.
It is not as complicated as it sounds; only, I am trying to illustrate the idea with required detail to get it across.
Yes, I agree.
There is also this issue:
All who promote that "this generation" was in the first century always avoid the fact that the generation to see all those events would also see the actual second coming and gathering of the saints.
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Immediately after the tribulation will the sun and moon go dark and the stars will fall from heaven, all being global events. Did that happen after the Roman's destroyed the city and temple? No.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
All the tribes of the Earth mourning and seeing Christ coming from heaven to the Earth. Again, a global event. Did that happen in Ad70? No.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The gathering of the elect by angels in Ad70? No. The disciples would have been the elect of their generation and they certainly weren't gathered by angels. This is the same event known as the Rapture but it didn't happen in Ad70 and hasn't happened yet.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
"all these things" includes verses 29-31 which shows the second coming and the gathering of the saints. Other scriptures tell us this timeframe is also the time when the dead in Christ are resurrected. Did either of those things take place in Ad70? No.
None of those things happened in the lives of the disciples proving he was NOT talking about their generation not passing before "all these things" occurred.
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Yes. It means you don't understand Revelation. That part of chp 7 is a view of the eternity. It doesn't mean it happens before the events of Revelation 19 happen.
Also, chp 7 says those people went through great tribulation. While that doesn't mean they all went through the "Great Tribulation" Christ mentioned in the Olivet Discourse, it does prove those of the church go through tribulation rather than are removed so they don't go through tribulation. Once again, predictably, a supposed pre-trib proof text actually proves pre-trib wrong.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
If this supported pre-trib it would say this:
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which WERE RAPTURED to avoid great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Pre-trib is a false doctrine that employs Eisegesis to falsely support itself.
Also, chp 7 says those people went through great tribulation. While that doesn't mean they all went through the "Great Tribulation" Christ mentioned in the Olivet Discourse, it does prove those of the church go through tribulation rather than are removed so they don't go through tribulation. Once again, predictably, a supposed pre-trib proof text actually proves pre-trib wrong.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
If this supported pre-trib it would say this:
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which WERE RAPTURED to avoid great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Pre-trib is a false doctrine that employs Eisegesis to falsely support itself.
The idea represented here is exactly-and-precisely what is "presented" in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 (same type of thing) - referring to an event that the Jews knew with absolute certainty had already occurred.
It instructed them to be prepared to recognize what happened at the time of the [real actual] AoD (and they knew and remembered) - such that, when they saw it happening again, to "get out of Dodge, and don't waste any time doing it"...
It instructed them to be prepared to recognize what happened at the time of the [real actual] AoD (and they knew and remembered) - such that, when they saw it happening again, to "get out of Dodge, and don't waste any time doing it"...
Does Rev 7:9-17 support a pre-trib rapture because it is 12 chapters before the Revelation 19 second coming? No.
To prove that I will compare this passage to other scripture. It is lengthy and detailed but it's worth the time to read.
Here is a major jump in chronology. John now sees a huge multitude of people, all arrayed in white robes which symbolizes righteousness and that they are in spiritual bodies. They have come through "great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" which places this past the tribulation period and into the eternity. This multitude has overcome and have been judged to life.
As you can see, the throne is not empty. God the Father is there upon it, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is next to Him and He will be on the right side of the throne.
This is a major "clue" to documenting just when this happens, for there are only certain times that the full Godhead (where they are, the Holy Spirit is naturally present) will be together like this, especially with a numberless crowd in the white robes of righteousness standing before them and giving praise. In short, this is definitely not happening right after the tribulation but a time after that. The next verses will help to establish just when this actually is.
Again, this would not be happening directly after the tribulation had ended, which would be the beginning of the millenium for at that time Christ leaves heaven and takes most if not all of heavens angels and returns to the Earth at the 7th trump. Either this verse happens before that happens in heaven, or this is happening the next time Christ is together with God the father which wouldn't be until judgement day, and all time after that.
This is comparable to this:
Ok, this is where it gets interesting.
It is commonly assumed that this coming out "of great tribulation" is a reference to the tribulation of the antichrist and refers to no other tribulation. It actually means any and all tribulations, that these overcame all of them rather than a specific one. There are several "tribulations" that these shall endure through in order to be standing here in white robes praising God. The first one shall be that tribulation hour of the antichrist, then any who took satan's mark will suffer through God's tribulation, which will be all peoples except the elect which is a considerably smaller number than this multitude, and then there is that last testing of satan when he is released from the pit at the end of the millenium and will convince and persuade a great numberless multitude to follow him to war with God. Unfortunately if they choose satan at that time, they shall be judged according to that decision for judgement starts right after that.
So, there are several times of tribulation, and even that 1000 year period could be considered another time of tribulation for those who must endure through the teaching and the disciplining.
tribulation
2347
2347 thlipsis {thlip'-sis}
from 2346; TDNT - 3:139,334; n f
AV - tribulation 21, affliction 17, trouble 3, anguish 1,
persecution 1, burdened 1, to be afflicted + 1519 1; 45
1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits
Tribulation is just a really rough time, of varying degrees. A time of distress, a time of stress, pressure and so forth.
That is God's tribulation and its something to be avoided.
If this supposedly happens right after the end of the first tribulation of the antichrist, then this is within the time of the millenium, the 1000 year reign of Christ. Do that many people have access to the temple in the millenium? I'm afraid not, for only the priests of the Zadok shall have access to the temple during that time. There shall not be such a large number of people who can approach the throne, in front of the full Godhead who are clothed as they are being symbolic of purity and righteousness. It also says the one on the throne dwells among them. When does God the Father dwell among mankind like this? The Eternity!
Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
This should sound familiar. When is there a time that we should not hunger nor thirst anymore?
To prove that I will compare this passage to other scripture. It is lengthy and detailed but it's worth the time to read.
Here is a major jump in chronology. John now sees a huge multitude of people, all arrayed in white robes which symbolizes righteousness and that they are in spiritual bodies. They have come through "great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" which places this past the tribulation period and into the eternity. This multitude has overcome and have been judged to life.
As you can see, the throne is not empty. God the Father is there upon it, and the Lamb, Jesus Christ, is next to Him and He will be on the right side of the throne.
This is a major "clue" to documenting just when this happens, for there are only certain times that the full Godhead (where they are, the Holy Spirit is naturally present) will be together like this, especially with a numberless crowd in the white robes of righteousness standing before them and giving praise. In short, this is definitely not happening right after the tribulation but a time after that. The next verses will help to establish just when this actually is.
Again, this would not be happening directly after the tribulation had ended, which would be the beginning of the millenium for at that time Christ leaves heaven and takes most if not all of heavens angels and returns to the Earth at the 7th trump. Either this verse happens before that happens in heaven, or this is happening the next time Christ is together with God the father which wouldn't be until judgement day, and all time after that.
This is comparable to this:
Ok, this is where it gets interesting.
It is commonly assumed that this coming out "of great tribulation" is a reference to the tribulation of the antichrist and refers to no other tribulation. It actually means any and all tribulations, that these overcame all of them rather than a specific one. There are several "tribulations" that these shall endure through in order to be standing here in white robes praising God. The first one shall be that tribulation hour of the antichrist, then any who took satan's mark will suffer through God's tribulation, which will be all peoples except the elect which is a considerably smaller number than this multitude, and then there is that last testing of satan when he is released from the pit at the end of the millenium and will convince and persuade a great numberless multitude to follow him to war with God. Unfortunately if they choose satan at that time, they shall be judged according to that decision for judgement starts right after that.
So, there are several times of tribulation, and even that 1000 year period could be considered another time of tribulation for those who must endure through the teaching and the disciplining.
tribulation
2347
2347 thlipsis {thlip'-sis}
from 2346; TDNT - 3:139,334; n f
AV - tribulation 21, affliction 17, trouble 3, anguish 1,
persecution 1, burdened 1, to be afflicted + 1519 1; 45
1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits
Tribulation is just a really rough time, of varying degrees. A time of distress, a time of stress, pressure and so forth.
That is God's tribulation and its something to be avoided.
If this supposedly happens right after the end of the first tribulation of the antichrist, then this is within the time of the millenium, the 1000 year reign of Christ. Do that many people have access to the temple in the millenium? I'm afraid not, for only the priests of the Zadok shall have access to the temple during that time. There shall not be such a large number of people who can approach the throne, in front of the full Godhead who are clothed as they are being symbolic of purity and righteousness. It also says the one on the throne dwells among them. When does God the Father dwell among mankind like this? The Eternity!
Rev_21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
This should sound familiar. When is there a time that we should not hunger nor thirst anymore?
In chapter 21 we have passed the time of judgement are are now being given a glimpse of the eternity in the new age with the new Heaven and the new Earth ages beginning.
This is why we thirst no more. Christ gives unto us the water of life, and it will quench our thirst forever.
This is something available to those who overcome and are that bride of Christ.
This is the tree of life and we shall partake of it's fruits and there will be no hunger. The famine of the end times is for hearing the word of God, but at this time the word of God will be with us forever and we shall never hunger again.
Again, this is something that only takes place during the eternity.
Amen, let there be light, the light of Christ.
He shall feed us and give us to drink from the waters of life.
There is only one time that God dwells with us and wipes away our tears my friends:
There shall be no tears or sorrow at that time because they are of the things that are passed away and do not exist anymore. This only exists during the eternity.
This also happens in the eternity.
The nations come before throne to honor God and they shall do this to show their love to God.
In conclusion, Revelation 7:9-end is a glimpse of the eternity as are the latter chapters of Revelation, and this great multitude is there before the throne not simply after the tribulation, but after all tribulations have ended. They have overcome all tribulations they have faced and have been judged to life and are free to worship God forever and partake of all the wonderful things promised to us by God.
This is why we thirst no more. Christ gives unto us the water of life, and it will quench our thirst forever.
This is something available to those who overcome and are that bride of Christ.
This is the tree of life and we shall partake of it's fruits and there will be no hunger. The famine of the end times is for hearing the word of God, but at this time the word of God will be with us forever and we shall never hunger again.
Again, this is something that only takes place during the eternity.
Amen, let there be light, the light of Christ.
He shall feed us and give us to drink from the waters of life.
There is only one time that God dwells with us and wipes away our tears my friends:
There shall be no tears or sorrow at that time because they are of the things that are passed away and do not exist anymore. This only exists during the eternity.
This also happens in the eternity.
The nations come before throne to honor God and they shall do this to show their love to God.
In conclusion, Revelation 7:9-end is a glimpse of the eternity as are the latter chapters of Revelation, and this great multitude is there before the throne not simply after the tribulation, but after all tribulations have ended. They have overcome all tribulations they have faced and have been judged to life and are free to worship God forever and partake of all the wonderful things promised to us by God.
No. The future tense proves it was a future event to watch for. It's literally impossible it to have been a past event. Again, Christ said one generation would see everything Christ spoke about including the second coming. AoD did not happen before Christ's ministry, did not happen min AD70, and still has not yet happened.
I don't buy any of that. The language is clear that it is something to watch for and then act accordingly:
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
It's very clear that when they see the AoD, they need to flee. He said one generation would see "all these things" including the second coming. That cannot fit a historical event. All versions of preterism are wrong.
Yeah buddy, the rapture is when the living saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the air at his second coming , on the last day, not preceding the dead in Christ who rise first. A secret silent rapture is not justified , in truth it will be a noisy public event The Lord Himself descending with a shout and the voice of the Archangel . What is interesting is that both views look at the same Scriptures re: Chuck Smiths book on the Rapture. vs. William Kimballs book . The Rapture a question of timing . Not a question of will there be a Rapture but when will the Rapture be. Apparently the language in the Greek was used once before to describe someone going out to meet someone else on a journey and continuing with them on that Journey. Peace
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Dear Brother - you truthfully pointed out that it happened in 167 BC and 70 AD.
It can, and will happen again - Zechariah 14:1-5
Behold, a day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence. 2For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. 5You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.a
PEACE
It can, and will happen again - Zechariah 14:1-5
Behold, a day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence. 2For I will gather all the nations for battle against Jerusalem, and the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
3Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. 4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south. 5You will flee by My mountain valley, for it will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with Him.a
PEACE
I'm not preterit,pre trib. ect.(bare in mind please) but your beginning at Matthew 24:4 instead of Matthew 24:3(the questions they ask Jesus) https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/24-3.htm And so they ask "the end of the age" so aeon of time(when it would end) https://biblehub.com/greek/165.htm and so as in the Scripture you gave(Matthew 24:34) the Lord answered the specific question they ask him about that age/generation/aeon they were then in(not generation as in 1940's,50's 60's ect) but the generations of the heavens and the earth as in https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/2-4.htm that is to them as Jewish(raised in Judaism) they saw an aeon(age/generation) as sets of one thousand year days as in Genesis 2:4's usage of toledoth(strongs 8435) https://biblehub.com/hebrew/8435.htm and 2 Peter 3:8 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/3-8.htm in that an age/generation was ending and the next was about to begin(not the end of the world) but in an series of prophetic days 1.2,3,thru 7 one age/aeon/generation(of time) was ending and the next beginning, So as if day 4 came to it's close and then day 5 began,then 6 and then day 7(the millennial)....