How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[lamad]

True enough.
...

The only problem is that those are assumptions. For example, there isn't a verse that just says something like "Before the great tribulation, Jesus will return to rapture the church." It doesn't exist. The pre-trib theory is built on inferences and doesn't have enough Biblical support. It also creates contradictions. That's why most people just reject the pre-trib. I hope you see it one day.

There is no verse anywhere that in so many words tells us when the rapture will be, INCLUDING a posttrib rapture.
The posttrib rapture is built on inferences such as GUESSING the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. This is not something we should guess about.

It is an absolute fact that John saw the large crowd, too large to number, in chapter 7, NOT IN CHAPTER 19. Does that mean anything to you?

Next, Paul mentions His rapture three verses before he mentions the Day of the Lord. Then shortly after that, mentions wrath. Does that mean anything to you? Further, He tells us that God is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath. Does that mean anything to you? Pretribbers BELIEVE these things and use them to form doctrine.

It also creates contradictions. Please specify.

 

[DavidTree]

That is your opinion, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, millions believe you are wrong.
Worse, you are wrong but imagine you are right, making it worse by two.
You have not found and corrected your mistake, so worse times 3.

Chances are great you don't know where that "exact midpoint" is. You probably don't even know where the 70th week begins or where the real rapture is on Revelation's timeline. Yet you SEEM to such an expert. Again I am reminded of Socrates: "the ills of the whole world are caused by those who THINK they know, when in fact, they don't."

You can quote scriptures or addresses "till the cows come home," but understanding them is something different altogether. We all agree that the scriptures tell us the truth, as far as the translators get it right.

Question: what event written in the New Testament do you think will put and end to the daily sacrifices and offerings?

The only person(s) that rely on 'opinions' is your self and all who embrace the error of 'pre-trib'.

That is all you have, man-made opinions.

the Devil said: “If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.”

JESUS said:“It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”

the spirit of pre-trib says: "make these scriptures say pre-trib"

JESUS says: "“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 

[Runningman]

You are simply mistaken.

It seems Luke and Paul disagree with you, keeping Jews and Gentiles separate in their writing.

God poured out the Holy Spirit on the Jew and Gentile alike.
Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Jews resisted the gospel (for the most part) while the Gentiles accepted it.
Acts 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Both Jew and Gentiel are under sin.
Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Romans 3:29
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

God calls both the Jew and the Gentile.
Romans 9:24
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 2:8
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

I don't disagree with Paul or Luke or anyone in the Bible. They may have had different approaches to preaching the gospel to Jews and Gentiles, but the overall message is that there is no distinction between a Jew and Gentile in Christ, but rather a unified body of believers called the church.

Dispensations? Did you not read?

• 
  1 Corinthians 9:17
  For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
  
  
• Ephesians 1:10
  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
  
  
• Ephesians 3:2
  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
  
  
• Colossians 1:25
  Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

If the KJV translators could call Paul's gospel a dispensation, I feel very comfortable believing in dispensations.
I also believe the bible clearly teaches premillennialism.

Dispensational premillennialism isn't necessarily about dispensations. I don't agree with dispensations in the Bible, but I disagree that there is currently a valid distinction between Jew and Gentile. There is no valid way to the Father except through Christ. Anyone who rejects Christ, regardless of their race, ethnicity, fame, wealth, beliefs, etc will ultimately face the second death in the lake of fire.

Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, is a world savior and Christianity is the next stage of Judaism, complete with a New Covenant. It is open to all people regardless of who they are or where they are from.

That's why the rapture in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is invisible to your eyes. You think that ethnic Jews who are unbelievers in the Messiah are God's elect and that Jesus is coming back for them in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. Is that right?

At this point, I've dismantled your theology down to pieces and explained to you how the dispensational premil theology is impossible and the pre-trib rapture is not real.

 

[DavidTree]

You are simply mistaken.

It seems Luke and Paul disagree with you, keeping Jews and Gentiles separate in their writing.

God poured out the Holy Spirit on the Jew and Gentile alike.
Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Jews resisted the gospel (for the most part) while the Gentiles accepted it.
Acts 13:42
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Both Jew and Gentiel are under sin.
Romans 3:9
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Romans 3:29
Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

God calls both the Jew and the Gentile.
Romans 9:24
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 2:8
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Dispensations? Did you not read?

• 
  1 Corinthians 9:17
  For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
  
  
• Ephesians 1:10
  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
  
  
• Ephesians 3:2
  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
  
  
• Colossians 1:25
  Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

If the KJV translators could call Paul's gospel a dispensation, I feel very comfortable believing in dispensations.
I also believe the bible clearly teaches premillennialism.

Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” Acts ch15

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
For there is no difference; om ch3

For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Rom ch10

Do not lie to one another, since you stripped off the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self, which is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created it— a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, and free, but Christ is all, and in all. Col ch3

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

What God has put together let no man separate.

REPENT from seeking to separate the Body of Christ into factions of the flesh and thru error of the serpent.

 

[GaryA]

Typo. I meant to say valid.

I know - I'm just teasin' ya...

 

[ewq1938]

And it still must be how the man of sin is revealed in 3b.
It also must satisfy verses 6-8 as the restraining power being taken out of the way. I don't think people leaving the church meets this as well as the departing of the church.

There is no departing of church in the passage. Apostasia cannot mean a physical departing. The man of sin comes to persecute church. When he comes, some of that church will Apostasy because they think Apostasy means a rapture. The man of sin will be a false Christ imitating Christ and what he will do which most certainly would include a false rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

Again I am reminded of Socrates: "the ills of the whole world are caused by those who THINK they know, when in fact, they don't."

Those same people also quote Socrates: "the ills of the whole world are caused by those who THINK they know, when in fact, they don't."

You can quote scriptures or addresses "till the cows come home," but understanding them is something different altogether. We all agree that the scriptures tell us the truth, as far as the translators get it right.

The same also say things like, "You can quote scriptures or addresses "till the cows come home," but understanding them is something different altogether. " but they cannot see all of these things apply to them, not to people they are speaking to.

Those same people refuse to accept the true definition of Apostasia claiming a concordance "fibbed". They refuse correction when clearly shown errors in their beliefs by multiple people.

 

[ewq1938]

I also believe the bible clearly teaches premillennialism.

It does but your doctrine is so badly composed you have Amillennial beliefs mixed in:

You incorrectly seem to imagine the "first" resurrection is one moment in time at the end. Jesus took part in that first resurrection when He rose from the dead.

That's not Premill. The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is the first of two resurrections of the dead. Jesus does not resurrect when the resurrection of the first group of the dead come back to physical life.

 

[DavidTree]

Like the counterfeit of "No Bride of Christ mentioned in Matthew ch24". So show us the verse!

Like the counterfeit of "No Bride of Christ mentioned in Matthew ch24". You incorrectly seem to imagine the "first" resurrection is one moment in time at the end. Jesus took part in that first resurrection when He rose from the dead.

Yes, the Lord warned us not to be deceived. So did Paul. Then why are there posttrib believers? It is deceit all the way. Paul's rapture comes BEFORE WRATH. John shows us the start of God's wrath is BEFORE the 70th week begins.

We all agree that "some" depart - but when one departs, I believe two come in. John shows us a VICTORIOUS church, not a defeated one.

We are still waiting for proof that the gathering "after the tribulation" is Paul's gathering. It is is truth, there MUST be scripture....

Hello Friend - Jesus did not take 'part' in the Resurrection - a little misconception

JESUS is the RESURRECTION = "I AM the Resurrection" - John 11:25

“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. 26And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified—behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!”
27John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. 28You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’
29He who has the bride is the bridegroom;

JESUS is the 'post-tribber' who says: “Immediately after the tribulation......His Coming to gather His elect."

Calling Jesus a 'deceiver' - that was relegated to the Pharisees who wanted to kill Him - John ch8

One thing you have right, at least in part - "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." 1 Thess 1:10

 

[Nehemiah6]

Hello Friend - Jesus did not take 'part' in the Resurrection - a little misconception. JESUS is the RESURRECTION = "I AM the Resurrection" - John 11:25

Yes. Jesus is the Resurrection AND the Life. But He is also the First Fruits of the Resurrection. Which is compared to a Hebrew harvest. So what do we have?

THE FIRST FRUITS -- Christ

THE MAIN HARVEST -- The Church saints at the Resurrection/Rapture

THE GLEANINGS -- the resurrection of the Tribulation saints just prior to the Millennium

So it looks like you are the one with this misconception (among many others).

 

[Nehemiah6]

At this point, I've dismantled your theology down to pieces and explained to you how the dispensational premil theology is impossible and the pre-trib rapture is not real.

Really? You must be quite the theologian. Or should we say theoretician? The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a FUNDAMENTAL BIBLE DOCTRINE. The apostles and the apostolic churches believed it because Christ Himself taught it. So if it is "not real" then you must be the one who needs to go back to square one. BTW there is no Rapture in Matthew 24, and I already demolished that idea many posts earlier. In fact it would be an absurdity.

 

[DavidTree]

Yes. Jesus is the Resurrection AND the Life. But He is also the First Fruits of the Resurrection. Which is compared to a Hebrew harvest. So what do we have?

THE FIRST FRUITS -- Christ

THE MAIN HARVEST -- The Church saints at the Resurrection/Rapture

THE GLEANINGS -- the resurrection of the Tribulation saints just prior to the Millennium

So it looks like you are the one with this misconception (among many others).

Please post scripture for:
A.) Christ the First Fruits
B.) Main Harvest and
C.) a Second resurrection BEFORE the Second Resurrection

Thank You

 

[ewq1938]

Yes. Jesus is the Resurrection AND the Life. But He is also the First Fruits of the Resurrection. Which is compared to a Hebrew harvest. So what do we have?

THE FIRST FRUITS -- Christ

THE MAIN HARVEST -- The Church saints at the Resurrection/Rapture

THE GLEANINGS -- the resurrection of the Tribulation saints just prior to the Millennium

So it looks like you are the one with this misconception (among many others).

This is wrong. The dead in Christ rise first which means they are rise at the same time. There is no second first resurrection. By the time of the rapture, there is no dead Christian anywhere yet you think some are still dead and will be resurrected at another time. This is clear error.

 

[GaryA]

So something which happened almost 200 years before the Olivet Discourse is stated to be a FUTURE EVENT by Christ, ...

Christ did not [actually] state it to be a future event. No one did.

(Which is what I am trying to get folks to see and understand.)

At first glance, it appears that way; however, that is not the intent behind what was said.

What was said was intended [only] as an indirect reference to what happened at the time of the AoD.

(The Jews knew it had already occurred.)

This is where the parenthetical phrases have their intended meaning.

 

[ewq1938]

Really? You must be quite the theologian. Or should we say theoretician? The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a FUNDAMENTAL BIBLE DOCTRINE.

No, it is a IMAGINARY BIBLE DOCTRINE. It does not exist in the bible. Post-trib is the only biblical doctrine:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Please post scripture for:
A.) Christ the First Fruits
B.) Main Harvest and
C.) a Second resurrection BEFORE the Second Resurrection

THE FIRST RESURRECTION (the resurrection of life)
I just explained to you that the First Resurrection (the resurrection of the just) is in three phases (1 Corinthians 15:23,24; Rev 20:4,5), just like a Hebrew harvest. It is actually mentioned in Rev 20:5, but it is called the resurrection of the just (justified ones)

THE SECOND RESURRECTION (the resurrection of damnation)
This is called the resurrection of the unjust, and takes place just before the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:12) when the unsaved dead stand before God.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Christ did not [actually] state it to be a future event. No one did.

Really? Since Christ was speaking to his apostles in AD 30, and predicting FUTURE events prior to His Second Coming , He mentioned the AoD as a future event in Mathew 24:15, using the future tense.

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)...

Had this happened about 200 years before Christ, He would have said "Ye shall NOT see the abomination of desolation, which was fulfilled long ago..."

 

[Nehemiah6]

This is wrong. The dead in Christ rise first which means they are rise at the same time.

The dead in Christ rise first in order of priority at the Resurrection/Rapture (which is in fact one event, with the two things separated by nanoseconds). So please pay close attention to what has been written, and don't make the same mistake again:

THE MAIN HARVEST IS THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede, or go before] them which are asleep [who died in Christ]. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [RESURRECTION] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together [RAPTURE] with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord... In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye [nanoseconds], at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, [RESURRECTION] and we shall be changed [RAPTURE].

Christ is the First Fruits, and the Tribulation saints are the gleanings. In between is the Main Harvest.

 

[ewq1938]

The dead in Christ rise first in order of priority at the Resurrection/Rapture (which is in fact one event, with the two things separated by nanoseconds).

Which means they are two separate events not one. Can you try to stop making contradictions?

So please pay close attention to what has been written, and don't make the same mistake again:

You are the one making the mistakes. The first resurrection is when ALL THE DEAD in Christ come back to life. There is no 2nd first resurrection.

 

[DavidTree]

THE FIRST RESURRECTION (the resurrection of life)
I just explained to you that the First Resurrection (the resurrection of the just) is in three phases (1 Corinthians 15:23,24; Rev 20:4,5), just like a Hebrew harvest. It is actually mentioned in Rev 20:5, but it is called the resurrection of the just (justified ones)

THE SECOND RESURRECTION (the resurrection of damnation)
This is called the resurrection of the unjust, and takes place just before the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:12) when the unsaved dead stand before God.

Thank You for the scripture references - PEACE to You Brother

SEE here Brother - this will set you free just as our LORD says "the Truth will set you free"

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

PEACE to You and Blessing from our LORD, whom we wait for and His Resurrection = at His Coming