How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[ewq1938]

It all depends on which English translation you quote.

1384 Wycliffe N.T.
That no man deceyue you in any maner / for no but departynge aweye (or dissencon) schal come firste & the man of synne schall be schewid [shewed] the sone of perdicioune.

Definition of dissension



: disagreement especially : partisan and contentious quarreling causing dissension within the police department a colony threatened by religious dissension




This still a reference to Apostasy or falling away from the truth

 

[Runningman]

It is not what is similar that divides His future comings - it is what is different. There is simply too much different—they are not the same coming, but instead, TWO comings.

The four gospels are different, but that doesn't make them any less invalid. So that line of thinking doesn't really make sense to me.

For example, Luke 21's Olivet Discourse is different than Mark 13 and Matthew 24. Scriptures don't always include literally all of the available information the writer could have written. The Holy Spirit guides people in different ways at different times.

Jesus talked about His return in Luke 21 differently than in Mark 13 and Matthew 24, gathering the elect wasn't even mentioned in Luke 21, but that doesn't mean the elect aren't gathered.

Paul also describes the rapture differently in 1 Thessalonians 4 compared to 1 Corinthians 15, saying "the dead in Christ will rise first and we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye." 1 Thessalonians 4 doesn't say we'll be changed like how 1 Corinthians 15 does after the first resurrection. That doesn't mean it's talking about an entirely different resurrection and and rapture.

This comes down to an issue of hermeneutics. You need to see how scriptures can say different things while talking about the same subject. This is evident through context.

 

[cv5]

The four gospels are different, but that doesn't make them any less invalid. So that line of thinking doesn't really make sense to me.

For example, Luke 21's Olivet Discourse is different than Mark 13 and Matthew 24. Scriptures don't always include literally all of the available information the writer could have written. The Holy Spirit guides people in different ways at different times.

Jesus talked about His return in Luke 21 differently than in Mark 13 and Matthew 24, gathering the elect wasn't even mentioned in Luke 21, but that doesn't mean the elect aren't gathered.

Paul also describes the rapture differently in 1 Thessalonians 4 compared to 1 Corinthians 15, saying "the dead in Christ will rise first and we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye." 1 Thessalonians 4 doesn't say we'll be changed like how 1 Corinthians 15 does after the first resurrection. That doesn't mean it's talking about an entirely different resurrection and and rapture.

This comes down to an issue of hermeneutics. You need to see how scriptures can say different things while talking about the same subject. This is evident through context.

Jesus interjects with details about the 70 A.D. destruction exclusively in Luke 21 (in effusive detail I might add).......which details are added to none other of the parallel accounts. .

The ignorance of which will inevitably relegate those so blinded to this fact to an erroneous or even heretical view of end time prophecy.

Furthermore, this crucial omission and error is an extremely common one.

 

[GaryA]

Jesus interjects with details about the 70 A.D. destruction exclusively in Luke 21 (in effusive detail I might add).......which details are added to none other of the parallel accounts.

This is not true.

The wording of Matthew 24:16-19 / Mark 13:14b-17 / Luke 21:21,23 helps to establish the fact that all three accounts are describing the same event at the same singular time in history - circa 70 A.D. The fact that the details of all three are not identical does not take away from this.

The fact that the descriptions of two of the accounts are more similar than the third does not mean the third account is "totally different" in time-and-event context.

The time-and-event context is the same for all three accounts.

The near-exactness of Matthew 24:19 / Mark 13:17 / Luke 21:23 is a major key element of this conclusion.

Furthermore, Luke 21:24 is highly unlikely to be in a future time frame - especially within a short range of time.

I believe the wording of this verse is such that we know it is describing a long period of time and not a short one.

I have attempted to explain why Matthew 24:15 / Mark 13:14 / Luke 21:20 are actually saying the-very-same-exact-thing.

The parenthetical phrases in the Matthew and Mark accounts are necessary for the understanding of it.

They are there for a reason!

Unless you (whoever) learn to "let go of" the predetermined assumption that is erroneously made due to the lack of having a proper understanding of what is actually being said in these verses - by virtue of the parenthetical phrases (which the first-century Christians, being Jews, understood perfectly) - you (whoever) are not ever going to make sense of it.

You must "let go of" that assumption.

It is that simple.

The contextual alignment of these verses is absolutely certain.

But, you (whoever) absolutely must "let go of" the preconceived notion that the Matthew and Mark accounts are saying/suggesting that [people] are going to "see" the "actual" AoD 'event'.

As difficult as it is to try to imagine - it is not saying that.

If/When you (whoever) understand what the parenthetical phrases mean - that the Jews understood perfectly - "it becomes clear-as-a-bell"...

But, you (whoever) must first be able/willing to "unlearn" that preconceived notion!

It is that simple.

 

[GaryA]

any less invalid

???

 

[GaryA]

But, you (whoever) absolutely must "let go of" the preconceived notion that the Matthew and Mark accounts are saying/suggesting that [people] are going to "see" the "actual" AoD 'event'.

What is actually being said in those verses is only making [a] reference to "what Daniel spoke of" - it is not saying that "it will happen again"...

The [real actual] AoD occurred in 167 B.C.

The [real actual] AoD is only being referred to in order to illustrate the historical facts connected to the 'event' described in Daniel 11:31.

What the Matthew and Mark accounts "allude to" - the Luke account simply says 'point-blank':

Luke 21:

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

 

[GaryA]

What is actually being said in those verses is only making [a] reference to "what Daniel spoke of" - it is not saying that "it will happen again"...

The [real actual] AoD occurred in 167 B.C.

The [real actual] AoD is only being referred to in order to illustrate the historical facts connected to the 'event' described in Daniel 11:31.

What the Matthew and Mark accounts "allude to" - the Luke account simply says 'point-blank':

Luke 21:

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

The contextual alignment of these verses is absolutely certain.

 

[GaryA]

If the shoe fits --- swallow your PRIDE and ask the Lord to help you understand it.

A-whole-lotta-things will "clear up" the moment you do... (understand it)

 

[Nehemiah6]

The [real actual] AoD occurred in 167 B.C.

This is simply laughable and ludicrous. So something which happened almost 200 years before the Olivet Discourse is stated to be a FUTURE EVENT by Christ, and according to your fantasy even the Lord Jesus Christ did not know how seriously mistaken He was! What next? Christ was not really God manifest in the flesh, just a good Jewish rabbi who did not know his own history?

 

[Runningman]

???

Typo. I meant to say valid.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, there's only one event like that. Did you notice that Paul's rapture and Jesus' return include Christ coming on the clouds with a trumpet, His angels present, to gather people?



Your reasons for why Christ and Paul boil down to semantics . The word gathered doesn't have to be used if it's being described. Christ comes to resurrect the deceased saints and those who are alive and remain are caught up together in the clouds where Christ is. That's the definition of what a gathering is. Your reason for dismissing it as something different because the word "gather" isn't used is invalid.

Christ is doing the gathering because He's commanding the angels. The angels are His laborers. It's Christ's gathering because He owns the gathering as the Master. The angels don't own the gathering even though they are doing the footwork.

Notice who the owner is throughout this process. It's Christ. Christ owns the angels and His elect.
Matthew 24:31
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is a normal way to understand any sort relationship between an owner and laborers. Fieldworkers aren't harvesting their crop, they're harvesting their bosses crop and gathering it into his barn. It's the bosses harvest, not the field worker's harvest. Does that make sense?

In mat 25 the groom himself gathers
Same in rev 14 :14.
Same in 1 thes 4.

Mat 24 has a gathering IN HEAVEN BY ANGELS.
(Not at all the rapture)

Amazing how you guys are forced to go against the bible

 

[Absolutely]

I can go along so far with the "falling from the faith" dynamic.

My recent discovery of "revealed" actually has me leaning toward the literal " departed" for this reason;

" revealed" is used 3 times in those "apostacy" verses of 2 thes that postribs park in.

We have something happening 3 times nefore the ac is REVEALED.( not yet in power...ONLY REVEALED)

WHAT IS that something that must precede the revealing of the AC?
I am saying ....what is it that must precede?
If I am a post-trip adherent then it cannot be the same thing. It has to be at least two separate things that precede the revealing of the AC.

I see that as a huge dilemma for the post trib Doctrine. Because now you need at least two of the three be talkin about separate happenings

^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^

Postribber major dilemma

 

[Absolutely]

What has to happen immediately prior to ac revealed?

It says " taken out of the way"

What is taken out of the way?

Waiting on postribber experts for the real interpretation

Any bible experts wanna jump in and teach us?

 

[Runningman]

In mat 25 the groom himself gathers
Same in rev 14 :14.
Same in 1 thes 4.

Mat 24 has a gathering IN HEAVEN BY ANGELS.
(Not at all the rapture)

Amazing how you guys are forced to go against the bible

Matthew 25 is a parable. 1 Thess. 4 and Rev. 14 are not parables.

Matthew 24 is not a gathering in heaven. Compare Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Matthew 24:31
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As anyone can see from a simple comparison of the same exact event in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27, the "four winds" is a reference to literally every direction. Wherever the elect are they will be gathered.

To prove that, observe Rev. 7:1

Revelation 7:1
1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

See that now? The four winds means refers to everywhere. Heaven mentioned in the Olivet Discourse, is talking about the sky, the clouds, the Earth's atmosphere. It isn't talking about the heaven where God's throne is.

Please utilize a Strong's concordance when you aren't sure. Don't just make things up or make assumptions as that is dangerous and misleading.

 

[Absolutely]

Yes, there's only one event like that. Did you notice that Paul's rapture and Jesus' return include Christ coming on the clouds with a trumpet, His angels present, to gather people?



Your reasons for why Christ and Paul boil down to semantics . The word gathered doesn't have to be used if it's being described. Christ comes to resurrect the deceased saints and those who are alive and remain are caught up together in the clouds where Christ is. That's the definition of what a gathering is. Your reason for dismissing it as something different because the word "gather" isn't used is invalid.

Christ is doing the gathering because He's commanding the angels. The angels are His laborers. It's Christ's gathering because He owns the gathering as the Master. The angels don't own the gathering even though they are doing the footwork.

Notice who the owner is throughout this process. It's Christ. Christ owns the angels and His elect.
Matthew 24:31
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is a normal way to understand any sort relationship between an owner and laborers. Fieldworkers aren't harvesting their crop, they're harvesting their bosses crop and gathering it into his barn. It's the bosses harvest, not the field worker's harvest. Does that make sense?

That is a dodgy way of admitting there are 2 distinct happenings.

One is tge rapture with Jesus gathiring
Another event with angels gathering.

Oh...and wait....we see that VERY DYNAMIC in tev 14.
One with Jesus Gathering. And yet another event totally separate with Angels Gathering


pretty much in the same breath

 

[DavidTree]

In mat 25 the groom himself gathers
Same in rev 14 :14.
Same in 1 thes 4.

Mat 24 has a gathering IN HEAVEN BY ANGELS.
(Not at all the rapture)

Amazing how you guys are forced to go against the bible

Ignorance of Scripture is not understanding why the LORD will in one place say HE and then in another say angels.

But here is some help for you:

Hallelujah!a
How good it is to sing praises to our God,
how pleasant and lovely to praise Him!
The LORD builds up Jerusalem;
He gathers the exiles of Israel.
He heals the brokenhearted
and binds up their wounds.
He determines the number of the stars;
He calls them each by name.
Great is our Lord, and mighty in power;
His understanding has no limit.
The LORD sustains the humble,
but casts the wicked to the ground.
Psalm 147

 

[Absolutely]

Matthew 25 is a parable. 1 Thess. 4 and Rev. 14 are not parables.

Matthew 24 is not a gathering in heaven. Compare Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Matthew 24:31
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As anyone can see from a simple comparison of the same exact event in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27, the "four winds" is a reference to literally every direction. Wherever the elect are they will be gathered.

To prove that, observe Rev. 7:1

Revelation 7:1
1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

See that now? The four winds means refers to everywhere. Heaven mentioned in the Olivet Discourse, is talking about the sky, the clouds, the Earth's atmosphere. It isn't talking about the heaven where God's throne is.

Please utilize a Strong's concordance when you aren't sure. Don't just make things up or make assumptions as that is dangerous and misleading.

You would have to take the position ( which you are) that parables are a waste of time and illustrate nothing.
So yes stop making things up.

" The kingdom of God is like unto..."

Your response;
"Your parables Jesus are nothingburgers"

 

[Absolutely]

Matthew 25 is a parable. 1 Thess. 4 and Rev. 14 are not parables.

Matthew 24 is not a gathering in heaven. Compare Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Matthew 24:31
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27
27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

As anyone can see from a simple comparison of the same exact event in Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27, the "four winds" is a reference to literally every direction. Wherever the elect are they will be gathered.

To prove that, observe Rev. 7:1

Revelation 7:1
1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

See that now? The four winds means refers to everywhere. Heaven mentioned in the Olivet Discourse, is talking about the sky, the clouds, the Earth's atmosphere. It isn't talking about the heaven where God's throne is.

Please utilize a Strong's concordance when you aren't sure. Don't just make things up or make assumptions as that is dangerous and misleading.

read your own post.

Stop pretending there is no 4 winds of heaven and that there is no gathering in heaven.

You really need that changed.
I do understand that and what you are doing.

 

[DavidTree]

read your own post.

Stop pretending there is no 4 winds of heaven and that there is no gathering in heaven.

You really need that changed.
I do understand that and what you are doing.

The Gathering in Heaven is TRUE = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep/died, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep/died in Jesus.

There are no raptured Saints in Heaven and there won't be until HIS Coming and the First Resurrection.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

After that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[Runningman]

read your own post.

Stop pretending there is no 4 winds of heaven and that there is no gathering in heaven.

You really need that changed.
I do understand that and what you are doing.

Please utilize a Strong's concordance when you aren't sure. Don't just make things up or make assumptions as that is dangerous and misleading.