The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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The gift cannot be the payment:
1) Christ's atoning death is the payment for sin.
2) "...The gift of God is eternal life"
3) Christ paid the debt on cross. Salvation isn't nailed to the cross. Salvation did not die.
4) Belief in Messiah = Salvation
Is not your point still: the gift (salvation = eternal life) is not the payment (death on cross)?
And the parable ends at v.6. So what follows isn't a parable but rather, figures of speech.
You have NO verses that say that Christ didn't die for everyone or died ONLY for some.
Until you find any, you have no point and no support for your theory.
No problem. It happens.Apologies, FreeGrace--I see I accidentally responded to you instead of Yahshua.
I'm enjoying your great responses!
FreeGrace2 said:
And the parable ends at v.6. So what follows isn't a parable but rather, figures of speech.
You have NO verses that say that Christ didn't die for everyone or died ONLY for some.
Until you find any, you have no point and no support for your theory.
Please understand that I study the Bible the way Bereans did.
Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
I examine the Scriptures every day and I so far haven't seen anything you've posted that is true.
And the parable ends at v.6. So what follows isn't a parable but rather, figures of speech.
You have NO verses that say that Christ didn't die for everyone or died ONLY for some.
Until you find any, you have no point and no support for your theory.
You are very welcome!
Please understand that I study the Bible the way Bereans did.
Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
I examine the Scriptures every day and I so far haven't seen anything you've posted that is true.
Joshua--I can't explain any better than I have--Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world with his death--that was the payment God required. The gift given to us thru our faith in Christ and His substitutionary death is salvation--saved from what? From God's condemnation and from the second death! And if we are saved from this death what do we receive--eternal life!
I found something else you said that confuses me just as much as the other statement you made:
"The gift of eternal life IS the substitutionary payment for the death owed."
"How would eternal life be the payment for the death owed?" I'm sorry, Joshua, but this is completely backwards!
Eternal life is the GIFT. Death is the payment owed. Christ paid that payment with his death on the cross.
Joshua--I can't explain any better than I have--Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world with his death--that was the payment God required. The gift given to us thru our faith in Christ and His substitutionary death is salvation--saved from what? From God's condemnation and from the second death! And if we are saved from this death what do we receive--eternal life!
I found something else you said that confuses me just as much as the other statement you made:
"The gift of eternal life IS the substitutionary payment for the death owed."
"How would eternal life be the payment for the death owed?" I'm sorry, Joshua, but this is completely backwards!
Probably will be my last few posts on this thread. What are we saved from?
Death.
What's the result?
eternal life.
-----
Eternal life = to live forever. Not die.
Death = to expire; to cease to be. Not live forever
The GIFT of eternal life = Eternal Life's Gift
That GIFT is to have the sin debt paid. This is a GIFT because we didn't work for it nor can we make the payment. The Messiah worked for it. This GIFT...results in eternal life...BECAUSE one is no longer condemned to die. If one is no longer condemned to die they will never die. They live forever. They are saved from death. Salvation.
If both of the quoted passages above are true...
- (Acts 16:30-31) Believe in the Messiah = Saved.
- (John 11:25-26) Believe in the Messiah = To live, never die.
....then the following is also true.
- Saved = To live, never die
If A = B ...and A = C ...then B = C
Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 6:26
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Saved = The Gift
The Gift = eternal life
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 6:26
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Saved = The Gift
The Gift = eternal life
Joshua--some of what you say here doesn't answer the question as to your statement here:
"The gift of eternal life IS the substitutionary payment for the death owed."
Can you see why I don't believe this makes sense?
And if you want to call Jesus' death the gift--I guess that's fine but my point was Salvation is a gift, not the payment. Typically Christ's death is called 'sacrifice' 'substitutionary', 'penalty' etc. -- In any case I don't understand why you would want to argue that point since I am simply making a point based on scripture--that salvation is the gift we receive as a result of our faith in Christ and His substitutionary death. His death is the payment for our sins and not as you say "Salvation is the payment."
In any case, I think I'm done with this forum as well--I hope I will see you in other forums and regardless that we do not hold the same views hopefully we can remain friends on these forums.
blessings,
laura
But Joshua--that isn't what you said--that is what I said. You said 'Salvation was the payment'
But Joshua--that isn't what you said--that is what I said. You said 'Salvation was the payment'
Romans 5:15-18
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many!
16 Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.
The Gift = justification
Romans 3:24-26
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
I think you don't understand what spiritual death really is. It is separation from God. Not "to cease to be". In fact, all unbelievers will exist "forever and ever" in the "Second Death" or Lake of Fire.
The answer to what we are saved from is found in the 3 tenses of salvation.
1. Past tense: we HAVE BEEN saved from the penalty of sin. John 5:24 We call this justification.
2. Present tense: we ARE BEING saved from the power of sin. Eph 5:18 We call this sanctification.
3. Future tense : we WILL BE saved from the presence of sin. Rom 8:30 We call this glorification.
FreeGrace2 said:
No, I'm asking for just ONE verse that says in very plain unambiguous words that Christ either DIDN'T die for everyone, or that He ONLY died for some.
Is that too difficult to find?
I've already given you a number of verses that make clear that He DID die for everyone. And you didn't even try to refute any of them.
If you actually had a verse that was unambiguous about that, I would obviously have to believe it and rearrange my understanding about all the verses I have provided that actually SAY that He died for everyone.
But you don't have any such unambiguous verse, yet you continue to believe what is contrary to Scripture.
Interesting.
Sad.
No, I'm asking for just ONE verse that says in very plain unambiguous words that Christ either DIDN'T die for everyone, or that He ONLY died for some.
Is that too difficult to find?
I've already given you a number of verses that make clear that He DID die for everyone. And you didn't even try to refute any of them.
you are aware, I hope, that your answer didn't include ANY verse that unambiguously said that Christ's death wasn't for everyone.
If you actually had a verse that was unambiguous about that, I would obviously have to believe it and rearrange my understanding about all the verses I have provided that actually SAY that He died for everyone.
But you don't have any such unambiguous verse, yet you continue to believe what is contrary to Scripture.
Interesting.
Sad.
Fruit of Christ's Death !
What is meant by fruit is the effects and product of Christ's Death for all whom He died, for He died an Covenental Death Matt 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament or covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Isa 42:6
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
And because of this Death certain effects must take place according to that Covenant. One of the things is that God will be the God of those Christ died for and they His People in a experiential way Heb 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Remember when Jesus said to Mary this Jn 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Yes, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is their Father and God Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Sure, God is the God over all mankind as the Creator , but not in this Covenental sense through Jesus Christ !
This experiential becoming God's People is done by giving them a new inner life, implanting in them new spiritual principles, they shall be sprinkled with Clean water, taking away their natural hearts of stone, and given a heart of flesh Ezk 36:25-27
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
That New Heart, the word for heart leb:
Notice also Vs 25, God will cleanse them from all their Idols, for thats important in becoming experientially the People of God.
And because of this Promise, that is why all for whom Christ died turn from their idols as here and serve the Living God 1 Thess 1:8-9
8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;224
Yes this turning from Idols here is a confirmation of the promise in Ezk 36:25 and its an effect,a fruit of Christ's Covenental Death. This is the Blood of Christ, the Covenant Blood [Matt 26:28; Heb 13:20] producing its Covenental Effects Heb 9:14
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ or His Death, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
What is meant by fruit is the effects and product of Christ's Death for all whom He died, for He died an Covenental Death Matt 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament or covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Isa 42:6
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
And because of this Death certain effects must take place according to that Covenant. One of the things is that God will be the God of those Christ died for and they His People in a experiential way Heb 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Remember when Jesus said to Mary this Jn 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Yes, the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is their Father and God Eph 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Sure, God is the God over all mankind as the Creator , but not in this Covenental sense through Jesus Christ !
This experiential becoming God's People is done by giving them a new inner life, implanting in them new spiritual principles, they shall be sprinkled with Clean water, taking away their natural hearts of stone, and given a heart of flesh Ezk 36:25-27
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
That New Heart, the word for heart leb:
inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
a) inner part, midst
1) midst (of things)
2) heart (of man)
3) soul, heart (of man)
4) mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
5) inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
6) conscience
7) heart (of moral character)
8) as seat of appetites
9) as seat of emotions and passions
10) as seat of courage
Click to expand...
a) inner part, midst
1) midst (of things)
2) heart (of man)
3) soul, heart (of man)
4) mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
5) inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
6) conscience
7) heart (of moral character)
8) as seat of appetites
9) as seat of emotions and passions
10) as seat of courage
Click to expand...
Notice also Vs 25, God will cleanse them from all their Idols, for thats important in becoming experientially the People of God.
And because of this Promise, that is why all for whom Christ died turn from their idols as here and serve the Living God 1 Thess 1:8-9
8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;224
Yes this turning from Idols here is a confirmation of the promise in Ezk 36:25 and its an effect,a fruit of Christ's Covenental Death. This is the Blood of Christ, the Covenant Blood [Matt 26:28; Heb 13:20] producing its Covenental Effects Heb 9:14
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ or His Death, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
The Bible says repeatedly that Christ died for everyone. I have shared them with you.
The Greek word for "many" means just that; many, as opposed to "few".
And, in that same gospel, Matthew also wrote this:
Matt 7:14 - But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
So, which is it? Did Christ die for MANY, or ONLY A FEW?
What should be obvious is that "many" is a word of generality. If in fact Christ had only died for those who are on the road that "leads to life", then neither Matthew or any other writer would use the word "many" in reference to His death.
Certainly the number of saved peope is FAR LESS than the number of unsaved people, as Matt 7:14 very clearly indicates.