Usually, the charge of "twisting Scripture" is when a person makes a point and uses a verse that DOESN'T support that point.
The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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Ignore post 741. Hit the wrong key and it posted. Editing it exceeded the extremely short time limit.
Here is my full answer to Yahshua:
Now, please address my verses and see if you can explain them and prove they don't support my view.
Here is my full answer to Yahshua:
Usually, the charge of "twisting Scripture" is when a person makes a point and uses a verse that DOESN'T support that point.
Kinda weird, but ok, let's see what you have.
Actually, the Savior of everyone. So says Scripture.
Bingo! Clear right here. Everyone hears His voice. John 12:32. He draws ALL men to Himself. And then He calls HIS OWN SHEEP by name. It doesn't say everyone.
With a bit of discernment, it is clear that the context of this single verse is dealing with "His own sheep", so "the sheep" do follow Him and those sheep know His voice. Problem solved.
He IS the Savior of everyone. He died for everyone.
This verse clearly shows how one becomes His sheep; by entering in through Him, the Door. No mystery here.
I just explained how they do make sense.
Then why haven't you accepted the Scripture.
Nope. Why should it? I explained it. Go back and read it.
Oh, aren't you just so smart. The clear point here is that God created everyone. And His purpose is to save those who believe (1 Cor 1:21) and condemn those who "have not believed" (John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12).
Now, please address my verses and see if you can explain them and prove they don't support my view.
The Blood of Christ !
Heb 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
This verse tells us that it is the Blood of Christ [ The God/Man] and His Death that is the cause of one leaving dead works [false religion] and serving the Living God See Jer 10:10; Acts 14:15
And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
The Blood of Christ will effect that Turn from vanities [dead works] unto the Living God.
Thats exactly what Heb 9:14 teaches ! In fact Peter writes the same thing in these words 1 Pet 18-20
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
The vain conversation the blood of Christ redeemed them from was false, dead work, traditional religion !
People sing it, but do not really believe it, but its power in the Blood of Christ, it actually effects a change of mind or repentance for all it was shed, God's Elect !
Heb 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
This verse tells us that it is the Blood of Christ [ The God/Man] and His Death that is the cause of one leaving dead works [false religion] and serving the Living God See Jer 10:10; Acts 14:15
And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
The Blood of Christ will effect that Turn from vanities [dead works] unto the Living God.
Thats exactly what Heb 9:14 teaches ! In fact Peter writes the same thing in these words 1 Pet 18-20
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
The vain conversation the blood of Christ redeemed them from was false, dead work, traditional religion !
People sing it, but do not really believe it, but its power in the Blood of Christ, it actually effects a change of mind or repentance for all it was shed, God's Elect !
If Christ's death saves people, do you have clear verses that say that He didn't die for everyone?
Thanks.
Read the thread, plenty of verses to establish that of Christs atonement and what it accomplished.
Ahh...
Ok, so for this single verse "the sheep" DOES mean "his own sheep", but not anywhere else in His parable............You do realize you're flip-flopping, right? Your "discernment" of this chapter sounds awfully like your definition of twisting...Usually, the charge of "twisting Scripture" is when a person makes a point and uses a verse that DOESN'T support that point.
...By twist-er-discernment, right? Hmm. Well, what about this passage?
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Let's see how the John 10 passage reads if we replace "The Sheep" with "Israel":
John 10:1-4 [brackets mine]
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into [Israel], but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of [Israel].
3 To him the porter openeth; and [Israel] hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and [Israel] follow him: for [Israel] know his voice.
John 10:7-16 [brackets mine]
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of [Israel].
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but [Israel] did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for [Israel].
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own [Israel] are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth [Israel], and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth [Israel], and scattereth [Israel].
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for [Israel].
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for [Israel]
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
"The Sheep" meaning "Israel" fits every line much better than "everyone"...almost as if it's what The Messiah meant all along
lol (lightly teasing).It's not about me being smart(?) it's about accepting what scripture says...ALL of it must harmonize, not having some of it explained away for other parts of it that fit one's doctrine.
------
Sure thing. But below I commented on one of the critical elements of your other post to me. I think it's necessary to understand before we tackle the rest of your verses.
The wage...the payment for sin...is death. The price is one's life. If one's sins are paid for, then one has been saved from making the payment. There's nothing to bring to them because they got it. But this is your statement: "payment for sin CANNOT be brought to anyone whose sins have NOT been paid for." Your statement is paradoxical because Salvation IS "payment for sin".
It's called the Passover. Pass-over. As death passed over Egypt, The Messiah's life passes over into your body at His death, and your life passes over into His body on the cross. His death = the believer's life...and the believer's daily death (by faith) = The Messiah's resurrected, everlasting life. He is the door. And every Passover lamb was a personal sacrifice for sin.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless, I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
===>
<===
1) "I am crucified with Christ" = The believer's life enters into Christ's body as it is crucified on the cross
2) "Yet not I, but Christ liveth in me" = Christ's life enters into the believer's body upon conversion.
3) "the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith" = One needs faith for this exchange to be true (because, clearly, you still look like you, and there hasn't been any evidence of this exchange occurring that you can see...but you still know it's true).
So if a person does not have faith in Messiah (i.e. they're an unbeliever), the "pass-over" hasn't occurred for that person and thus Christ hasn't died for that person and that person is still an enemy; an outsider, who is already condemned to die because of Adam...that is, until they believe in Christ, then He will have died for that person as a personal sacrifice. Giving His life for His Sheep, THE Sheep of Israel.
"Salvation...by Yah's divine power...through Faith."
HalleluYah!
Ahh...
Usually, the charge of "twisting Scripture" is when a person makes a point and uses a verse that DOESN'T support that point.
...By twist-er-discernment, right? Hmm. Well, what about this passage?
Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Let's see how the John 10 passage reads if we replace "The Sheep" with "Israel":
John 10:1-4 [brackets mine]
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into [Israel], but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of [Israel].
3 To him the porter openeth; and [Israel] hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and [Israel] follow him: for [Israel] know his voice.
John 10:7-16 [brackets mine]
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of [Israel].
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but [Israel] did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for [Israel].
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own [Israel] are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth [Israel], and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth [Israel], and scattereth [Israel].
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for [Israel].
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for [Israel]
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
"The Sheep" meaning "Israel" fits every line much better than "everyone"...almost as if it's what The Messiah meant all along
It's not about me being smart(?) it's about accepting what scripture says...ALL of it must harmonize, not having some of it explained away for other parts of it that fit one's doctrine.
------
Sure thing. But below I commented on one of the critical elements of your other post to me. I think it's necessary to understand before we tackle the rest of your verses.
The wage...the payment for sin...is death. The price is one's life. If one's sins are paid for, then one has been saved from making the payment. There's nothing to bring to them because they got it. But this is your statement: "payment for sin CANNOT be brought to anyone whose sins have NOT been paid for." Your statement is paradoxical because Salvation IS "payment for sin".
It's called the Passover. Pass-over. As death passed over Egypt, The Messiah's life passes over into your body at His death, and your life passes over into His body on the cross. His death = the believer's life...and the believer's daily death (by faith) = The Messiah's resurrected, everlasting life. He is the door. And every Passover lamb was a personal sacrifice for sin.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless, I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
===>
<===
1) "I am crucified with Christ" = The believer's life enters into Christ's body as it is crucified on the cross
2) "Yet not I, but Christ liveth in me" = Christ's life enters into the believer's body upon conversion.
3) "the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith" = One needs faith for this exchange to be true (because, clearly, you still look like you, and there hasn't been any evidence of this exchange occurring that you can see...but you still know it's true).
So if a person does not have faith in Messiah (i.e. they're an unbeliever), the "pass-over" hasn't occurred for that person and thus Christ hasn't died for that person and that person is still an enemy; an outsider, who is already condemned to die because of Adam...that is, until they believe in Christ, then He will have died for that person as a personal sacrifice. Giving His life for His Sheep, THE Sheep of Israel.
"Salvation...by Yah's divine power...through Faith."
HalleluYah!
Dear brother,
In our earlier conversation you tried to make clear to me the difference between atonement and salvation--which I had explained I thought fairly well, btw.
However hear you say,
"Salvation IS "payment for sin."
How would that be? That would be like saying a coat you are to purchase is paid with by the coat itself. No. The payment is Christ's atoning death on the cross. Our belief on Christ and His death (is full payment for our sins ) results in us receiving the gift of Salvation.
I personally think that people need to understand that God has to draw the person to Jesus to accept Salvation --their heart has to be unhardened by God Himself -----we are all born with a hardened heart that God's Faith cannot penetrate----God is the only one who can change the Hardened heart to a Flesh heart so the person will accept and receive the Gospel which inbirths God's Producing Faith in them to receive the Promise of Salvation ----
JOHN 6:44
AMPC
No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
Ezekiel 36:26
Berean Study Bible
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Benson Commentary
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/ezekiel/36-26.htm
Ezekiel 36:26-27. A new heart also will I give you — A new disposition of mind, excellent in itself, and vastly different from what it was before; a frame of soul changed from sinful to holy, from carnal to spiritual; a heart in which the law of God is written, Jeremiah 31:33; a sanctified spirit, in which the almighty grace of God is victorious, and turns it from the world to God, and from all sin to all holiness; a state of mind which is the supernatural gift of God, and not wrought in any man by his own power.
And I will take away the stony heart — The hard, senseless, unfeeling, inflexible heart; the heart unapt and averse to receive any divine impressions, and to return any devout affections. Out of your flesh — That is, out of you.
And I will give you a heart of flesh — A soft and tender heart, that has spiritual senses exercised, and is conscious to itself of spiritual pains and pleasures; a heart of quite another temper, hearkening to God’s law, trembling at his threats, moulded into a compliance with his whole will; disposed to do, to be, or to suffer what God wills; receiving the divine impress as soft wax receives the impress of the seal.
JOHN 6:44
AMPC
No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.
Ezekiel 36:26
Berean Study Bible
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Benson Commentary
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/ezekiel/36-26.htm
Ezekiel 36:26-27. A new heart also will I give you — A new disposition of mind, excellent in itself, and vastly different from what it was before; a frame of soul changed from sinful to holy, from carnal to spiritual; a heart in which the law of God is written, Jeremiah 31:33; a sanctified spirit, in which the almighty grace of God is victorious, and turns it from the world to God, and from all sin to all holiness; a state of mind which is the supernatural gift of God, and not wrought in any man by his own power.
And I will take away the stony heart — The hard, senseless, unfeeling, inflexible heart; the heart unapt and averse to receive any divine impressions, and to return any devout affections. Out of your flesh — That is, out of you.
And I will give you a heart of flesh — A soft and tender heart, that has spiritual senses exercised, and is conscious to itself of spiritual pains and pleasures; a heart of quite another temper, hearkening to God’s law, trembling at his threats, moulded into a compliance with his whole will; disposed to do, to be, or to suffer what God wills; receiving the divine impress as soft wax receives the impress of the seal.
No, I'm asking for just ONE verse that says in very plain unambiguous words that Christ either DIDN'T die for everyone, or that He ONLY died for some.
Is that too difficult to find?
I've already given you a number of verses that make clear that He DID die for everyone. And you didn't even try to refute any of them.
Of course. btw, Jesus didn't give us a "parable" in John 10. He did give us figures of speech, to identify categories of sheep.
1. His sheep saved Jews
2. Other sheep of His saved Gentiles
3. not of His sheep unsaved Jews
Are you really not aware that Jesus was sent ONLY to the Jews?
Why don't we NOT scramble and conflate different passages with different contexts.
Wrong again. The word "death" in that verse speaks of eternal death, or the "second death". Everyone dies physically, so the word CANNOT mean what you wrongly think it means.
And the word "saved" in this statement isn't even related to the meaning of saved when it comes to soul salvation.
You just really don't understand very much.
We are saved the MOMENT we believe in Christ's death on our behalf. Not the MOMENT He died on the cross.
...But we are not receiving salvation as a coat. Salvation is not what covers us. His blood covers us. His death pays for us, saving us from our own payment.
Daniel 9:24 explains several things that were to occur, confirming what Leviticus 16 details. But two in particular are:
- Death as payment for sin. (because the wage of sin is death)
- Cleansing of iniquity.
Daniel 9:24
“Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place
- to put an end to sin = Death payment
- to atone for wickedness = Cleansing of iniquity with pure blood
It's not "atoning death". It's "death".... and then "atonement". These are broken into elements on purpose because they're not the same action/event. The death happened while He is suffering on the cross on Earth....the atonement happens while He is ministering in the tabernacle in heaven and in our hearts. One was the death work...the other is the living work.
Leviticus 16:15 (green numbers mine)
He shall then (1 - earth) slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and (2 - heaven) take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull’s blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it.
1) Death - saving us from the payment we'd need to make ourselves
2) Atonement = kippur - "to cover" the tabernacle with blood (which is also sprinkled on our hearts) cleansing iniquity, per Hebrews
John 10:6
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
Yeah, let's stop studying the bible. It's getting in the way of what we believe.
When one doesn't even recognize or accept passages it's not worth continuing the conversation.
LOL YES! Yes, friend, it is. The soul that sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:20). The original problem Adam caused is DEATH.
These are equal. This is the power of the Almighty. "The lamb was slain from the foundation of the world." This was the most pivotal moment in time in all of reality. Past, present, and future. He who was, who is, and who will be died for all those who were, who are, and who are to come...when they believed in Him. For His sheep.
Dear Brother,
You said, "...But we are not receiving salvation as a coat. Salvation is not what covers us. His blood covers us. His death pays for us, saving us from our own payment."
Lordy me.
It's not about the coat-- it is about the payment--I could have used in the place of a coat anything you were to purchase; a car, a house, a lawn mower--it is not about the item itself--the subject in question is clearly the PAYMENT. You had said in your previous post: "Salvation is the payment."
Again. The gift cannot be the payment. Christ's atoning death is the payment for sin--our sin.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Christ paid that debt for us by His death on the cross. Salvation was not nailed to the cross--salvation did not die.
How then is Salvation obtained?
"…Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”''Acts 16:30-31
Dear Brother,
You said, "...But we are not receiving salvation as a coat. Salvation is not what covers us. His blood covers us. His death pays for us, saving us from our own payment."
Lordy me.
It's not about the coat-- it is about the payment--I could have used in the place of a coat anything you were to purchase; a car, a house, a lawn mower--it is not about the item itself--the subject in question is clearly the PAYMENT. You had said in your previous post: "Salvation is the payment."
Again. The gift cannot be the payment. Christ's atoning death is the payment for sin--our sin.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Christ paid that debt for us by His death on the cross. Salvation was not nailed to the cross--salvation did not die.
How then is Salvation obtained?
"…Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”''Acts 16:30-31
You meant this for me.
Our wires must be getting crossed, using words typed on a screen.
You have a debt too large to pay....
....so as a gift...
...I pay that debt FOR YOU.
My gift to you is that I paid your debt that you couldn't afford to pay. Is my gift the payment or not?
Now Joshua, you know what I was saying--there could be no misunderstanding--all anyone has to do is go back and read my words to see this is the case.
What is the payment I am referring to? Christ's death on the cross for our sins
What is the gift I am referring to? The gift of salvation
""For the wages of sin is death (Christ's paid it) , but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast."--Ephesians 2:8-9
We are all going to agree on some things and disagree on others--I always hesitate to disagree with someone who I have been in agreement with in other forums, but I think if we truly believe something then we need to share it--I am really baffled by your response--it's as if you're trying to twist my words to say something they didn't.
Please don't start these accusations of twisting like the others do, Laura. Twisting. I can only reply to what I read/see. I posted the quote I was replying to as written. The quote said "the gift is not the payment". I replied to that, assuming first a weakness in this form of communication and NOT first assuming any malevolent motive. So I'd appreciate the same assumption from you. But if you're going to accuse I'll promptly conclude this exchange.
There are only two states for mankind: Death or eternal life. One is either condemned to death or one has eternal life. If the one (death) is paid, the other (eternal life) IS. This is why Paul contrasts the two in the passage. They are the opposites of each other.
The Messiah didn't take care of the one to then later on deliver the other. The gift is "taking care of the one so that the other is so, NOW" because the only reason mankind dies is because of sin. So if one's death is paid for, the result is eternal life for that one. It's a foregone conclusion for the believer.
John 11:25-26
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
The gift of eternal life IS the substitutionary payment for the death owed.
Well, what would you call it when you cut only a portion of what i said, leaving the explanation of what I said out?