How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

Absolutely · Nov 22, 2021

I will gladly become a postrib rapture adherent.
But can not due to you guys not addressing the pretrib verses.

It is not open minded to omit

So the problem with the open mind rests on those omitting the pretrib rapture verses.

Absolutely · Nov 22, 2021

lamad said:

Yes
They have poor doctrine.

They have no postrib rapture verses

None.

What they have done in accepting a flawed model is called "condemnation before investigation"

DavidTree · Nov 22, 2021

Absolutely said:

NOPE - i never said the AC kills all the Saints as we approach the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Remember this??? - God said that HE will keep some alive unto His Coming = 1 Thess 4:13-18 & Rev 3:10 & Luke 21:28 & Matt 24:22

God knows where each and every one of His Children are, now and forever = HE has a Great Memory and Math Skills - Psalm 147

The Lord builds up Jerusalem;
He gathers together the outcasts of Israel.
He heals the brokenhearted
And binds up their wounds.
He counts the number of the stars;
He calls them all by name.
Great is our Lord, and mighty in power;
His understanding is infinite.
The Lord lifts up the humble;
He casts the wicked down to the ground.

Absolutely · Nov 22, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Lol...too funny

Here is your so called postrib rapture "proof";

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture).

What a silly mess inserting that into rev 19's coming on horses

Totally butchering the rapture.

Wow

DavidTree · Nov 22, 2021

Absolutely said:

Lol...too funny

Here is your so called postrib rapture "proof";

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture).

What a silly mess inserting that into rev 19's coming on horses

Totally butchering the rapture.

Wow

And please explain what 'butchering' is that you claim - my Butchie - lol and GOOD Morning

walknlight · Nov 22, 2021

Hi!

DavidTree said:

Only problem with this is that Paul included himself,
1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

As if he had expectations of this event happening, in his day...

1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, I hold to the same hope/expectation....

God bless!

DavidTree · Nov 22, 2021

walknlight said:

That is not a problem at all - and Good Morning Dear Sister in the Lord Jesus Christ.

You should know why this is not a problem - dwell on it and when it comes to you - let me know.

PEACE

walknlight · Nov 22, 2021

Hi!

DavidTree said:

Good Morning.
Husband of one wife......

DavidTree said:

Apparently so, there a whole thread about it....

DavidTree said:

Im solid concerning my stance on this subject.....

God Bless!

DavidTree · Nov 22, 2021

walknlight said:

Sorry BROTHER

Stay solid on the Scripture = what God did say = "It is written."

But Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ ”

No one, yourself included, has been able to bring forth from Scripture "It is written - "pre-trib rapture".

The fact that for the past three months, not a single verse brought forth that says "Christ will pre-trib rapture His Elect" is enough for God and HE expects that to be enough for you as well.

Not a single verse that says "pre-trib rapture before the Resurrection"
Not a single verse that says "the Lord's Coming will be before the Antichrist"
Not a single verse that says "He will rapture you before Tribulation"

What did GOD say to you my Brother?

The LORD says:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Have you forgotten what satan did in the Garden??? and he has not stopped from speaking lies..........

Since the LORD said "Immediately after the Tribulation" - then anyone who speaks against this sides with satan.

That is not a Good choice to make.

Absolutely · Nov 22, 2021

lamad said:

There can be no doubt that in His Armageddon coming, Rev. 19, He comes to the ground to the Battle of Armageddon. He also comes riding a white horse. The armies of heaven come with Him. One can find NONE of this in His 1 Thes. coming: there He stops in a cloud and calls up the church. There is no resurrection found in the Matthew 24 gathering.

Paul's rapture, if we study 1 Thes. 4 & 5, comes before the Day and before wrath. Since the Day of the Lord begins in Rev. chapter 6, then the rapture must come before the Day starts because that is the Day of His wrath.

Paul tells us a SUDDENLY is coming: this series of events will start with SUDDENLY the dead in Christ flying up out of their graves. WHEN? When people are thinking and saying "peace and safety." How can ANYONE imagine people saying peace and safety after the days of GT?

A moment after the dead in Christ rise, then Paul tells us that two different groups of people get two very different results:
1. Those that are alive and in Christ get salvation: they are caught up to join the dead in Christ.
2. All those who are left behind fact Paul's "sudden destruction."

Paul hints strongly that the sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath and the start of the Day of the Lord.

WHERE do we find the start of God's wrath in Revelation? In chapter 19? NO! We find the start of the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal in chapter 6 of Revelation.

Prewrath believers are then forces to move the 6th seal to align with Rev. 19! How amazing is that?

ANY THEORY that must rearrange John's God Given chronology is immediately suspect and will certainly be proven wrong.

It is as if postribbers have never read rev 19

DavidTree · Nov 22, 2021

Absolutely said:

i read it all the time - it lines up perfectly with Matthew ch24 , 2 Thess ch2 , 1 John ch2

and lets not forget how it perfectly agrees with Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 7 and Rev 14 and right up to Rev 19&20

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Absolutely · Nov 22, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Paul describes it as a loud event with a shout and a trumpet. There is no secret or silent return before the one and only second coming after the end of the GT

But the resurrection of the dead in Christ happens after the GT not before it. We part of this in Revelation 20 when the people beheaded in the GT are those of the first resurrection. You cannot have the first resurrection before these saints are beheaded.

No, Paul places the resurrection and rapture on the day of the Lord, not before it. We are discussing those very scriptures!

False. That is describing the events of the same day,

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

When do people know Christ's wrath is about to happen? The one and only second coming at the 7th trump:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

That reward in verse 17 is the resurrection and rapture proving a post tribulation rapture.

Try on " like manner"

Thanks for showing us your misplaced rapture is impossible

Absolutely · Nov 22, 2021

does "like manner" mean a stuffed toy horsey is the same thing as a race horse?

lamad · Nov 22, 2021

DavidTree said:

Open your eyes, the falling away has been taking place for quite some time - easily recognizable and preparations for the Antichrist in full bloom - now.
This admonition of the Lord/Paul/John/Holy Spirit is to Believers, not to the blind, religious and ungodly who will rejoice in it.
Remove the idol and God will allow you to see, for it is dangerous to you that you cannot see.

Matt 24:10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless" = UNLESS WHAT Brothers?
"the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition"

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Tim 4:1

Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us.
But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. 1 John 2:18-19

The LORD, the Apostles Paul, John and the Holy Spirit all say the 'falling away is a departure from truth."

the error of pre-trib rapture goes against the words' of the Lord and the Apostles and Prophets and lays the trap for Matthew 24:10 - And then many will be offended, will betray one another,

And for this: But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have deviated from the truth.
They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.

Now if, they say the resurrection is past, they will also say the rapture had occurred, along with counterfeit raptures: Matt 24:26
Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

You are thinking whatever town you live in. God sees the entire world and knows that worldwide the church is GROWING. Sure, some fall away, but for every one that falls away, two come in.

Sorry to inform you, but the error is on your part. God has planned and escape from "all these things" which is speaking of all that will happen during the 70th week of Daniel.

You have a choice before you: you can escape with the rest of the church (Lule 21:36), or you can be left behind in God's wrath. I suggest you get wisdom and make the right choice.

DavidTree · Nov 22, 2021

lamad said:

i already have escaped with the blessing of Luke 21:36

another scripture that you do not understand

also, the Scripture does not say: "Sure, some fall away, but for every one that falls away, two come in."

See the LORD's response to your "for every one that falls away, two come in." = Revelation chapters 2-3 , 2 Thess ch2 and 1 John ch2

lamad · Nov 22, 2021

DavidTree said:

Here is where you veered off from the truth:

The Timing of Paul's rapture is in accordance with the Prophets and the word's of Christ. You see, the rapture was a SECRET up until Paul told it. For rapture information you can only go to Paul who received the revelation of the rapture. No prophet ever spoke of the rapture. All the prophets knew as a resurrection at the end of time:

Dan. 12:1...at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mary and Martha knew that there would be a resurrection day - but that would be of the Jews and Hebrews, as Daniel said, "some to everlasting life.)

If you wish to teach truth, picture the Gentile church of today as a parenthesis inserted into Jewish time, with only Paul receiving knowledge of those alive and in Christ caught up and changed. The truth is, you are looking in all the wrong places for information on Paul's rapture. No wonder we disagree.

lamad · Nov 22, 2021

DavidTree said:

It seems you think God is losing!
Think again!

From A Christian encyclopedia: "Africa became the continent with the most Christians in 2018, surpassing Latin America (which surpassed Europe in 2014). "

I will agree that church attendance in the US is shrinking. But in Africa I think it is increasing.

All this is beside the point: if Paul's intent was a falling away, how would anyone know when ENOUGH had fallen away to be what Paul was talking about?

lamad · Nov 22, 2021

DavidTree said:

Not a single verse that says "pre-trib rapture before the Resurrection"
Not a single verse that says "the Lord's Coming will be before the Antichrist"
Not a single verse that says "He will rapture you before Tribulation"

I an add to that:

Not a single verse that says "post-trib rapture after the trib."
Not a single verse that says "the Lord's Coming for the church will be after the Antichrist"
Not a single verse that says "He will rapture you after Tribulation"

You are expecting to find answers in exact wording. For the rapture, God has simply not supplied that. That is why the church is in such a disagreement.

However, all that said, John saw the great crowd too large to number before he saw any part of the 70th week.

DavidTree · Nov 22, 2021

lamad said:

This means only one of two possible things here:
A.) You are blind/confused to Matthew ch 24 where the LORD directly states He is Coming AFTER the Tribulation
Blind/confused to Matt ch24 , 2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 , 1 John 2:18-1 , Daniel ch7 , book of Job, James ch5 that states Tribulation, satan/man of sin/Antichrist comes
before His Coming
Blind/confused to Matt ch24 and Revelation that states His Coming/Resurrection/gathering us AFTER the Tribulation

OR

You are an emissary of satan to say "did God really say" and to twist His words for your desires.

Which one???

ewq1938 · Nov 22, 2021

lamad said:

Falling away from the truth is very serious. It is also serious that you refuse every Greek dictionary and concordance etc that affirms the word means a defection from the truth, Apostasy. See, you won't accept evidence of the truth not from scripture and not from Greek definition sources. That means you have closed your eyes and won't change your mind.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasia) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The word "falling away" is apostasia from where we get the words Apostate and Apostasy. Obviously it means a moral and spiritual religious "departure" not a physical departure.

Don't believe anything that says this event is the rapture. Here are 5 expert sources that prove the "departure" in 2 Thess 2:3 is the Apostasy:

Strong's definition G646

apostasia

ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”) : - falling away, forsake.

Total KJV occurrences: 2

Thayer Definition:

G646 apostasia

1) a falling away, defection, apostasy

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

Total KJV occurrences: 2

Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.

Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .

Winer's Grammar:

Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36

29) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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