How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

Nehemiah6 · Nov 19, 2021

Correct. The problem is that too many people are really unable to interpret Bible prophecy so that it is consistent with Gospel truth. Too many people do not really know what the Tribulation is about, or what will trigger the Great Tribulation. And then there are a whole bunch of websites trying to mislead Christians. They do not see the sequence of events which must lead to the Second Coming of Christ. and they cannot understand that in order for there to be the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven, the Bride must be present along with the Bridegroom. So who is this Bride and when does the Bridegroom come for His Bride?

Thus there is an awful lot of confusion, and add to that the anti-Pre-Trib propaganda, and thus they have no clear understanding of why there is even a Resurrection/Rapture to begin with. So let's take a close look at "Why We Believe in a Post-Tribulation Rapture". (Just their first reason, which is totally flawed).
https://www.endtime.com/blog/why-we-believe-in-a-post-tribulation-rapture/
Their point number 1 is this: "Matthew 24:29-31 clearly says that the rapture happens after the Great Tribulation. "

So let's see what it actually says in that passage: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1. Can anyone see the Resurrection/Rapture in this passage? Is there even a hint of the Resurrection of the saints? Not unless you force that event into the Second Coming of Christ WHEN ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH SHALL MOURN in anguish at the judgment which is about to be unleashed. So you are being forced to combine salvation and damnation in one and the same event. Which is totally absurd.

2. Who are these "elect" who are gathered by the angels AFTER the Second Coming? Can anyone in their right mind confuse them with the Church? When we read the sequence of events in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 we DO NOT see Christ sending any angels to gather the saints. He comes personally in the air, and He gathers them to Himself (John 14:1-3). Furthermore how could these "elect" even be the Church, since the Marriage of the Lamb takes place just before the Second Coming (Rev 19) and the saints are all present in Heaven at that time. Therefore these "elect" are a believing Jewish remnant, and we know from other Scriptures that God will supernaturally gather all Jews from around the world ("the four winds") to Israel to see Christ when He comes as the Deliverer of Zion. Only a third of them will believe on their Messiah and be saved. See Zechariah.

3. Thirdly, if Christ comes WITH His saints and angels from Heaven at this time (Rev 19) how can it even be possible that the Rapture is taking place while He is descending to earth? The absurdity of this is beyond comprehension.

And we have only addressed their first flawed reason. We could waste a lot of time looking at all their other reasons, but why bother? These people are clueless.

lamad · Nov 19, 2021

peldom10 said:

Sorry if I was to brief;
I could write a book on explanations but, hopefully this will illuminate my point.

The society will and is being gradually lead down the road of indifference to God and eternal salvation. We are experiencing that now and it will only get worse...gradually...in all respects. Example....same sex togetherness (no it is not marriage...the Bible defines a marriage...between a man and a woman),is an example of my thought; 30 years ago it was not socially acceptable and now it is applauded. Cussing now acceptable by the government over the air ways, a secular tolerance,,along. with abortion, et al.
Sodom and Gomorrah all over again. Remember that had proliferated for years and finally God had enough.

Thanks. Good explanation.

lamad · Nov 19, 2021

ewq1938 said:

As long as your understand that Jesus' own resurrection was a part of this "first" resurrection, I won't disagree with you.

lamad · Nov 19, 2021

DavidTree said:

My words don't count either - but i know Who does.........

YES, by the word of the LORD = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 = the dead Saints in Christ will come with Him = DEAD - Get IT.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep/died, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who died in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

There are no raptured Saints in Heaven and there won't be any there at all until HE Comes Back to Resurrect the Dead in HIM.

I am so glad you believe in Paul's rapture and that it will happen with Jesus' coming. Now all you need to add is that this coming will be before wrath and before the Day or the Lord: the order Paul establishes.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 19, 2021

DavidTree said:

Right.

And we've covered 1 Corinthians 15 in past posts:

--v.23 "[re: resurrection] But EACH [a word meaning "of more than two"] in his own ORDER / RANK" (which means there is an ORDER / RANK to it... but which you insist there remains only one at a singular point in time);

--vv.51-54 "Behold, I SHEW you a MYSTERY" (i.e. not something that Job and Daniel and Martha already WELL-KNEW

)...
"THIS corruptible" (i.e. "the DEAD IN Christ"... that is, those who "sleep through Jesus")
and "THIS mortal" (the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto," who are also "IN Christ"; who both together make up the "ONE BODY"[see 1Cor12:12

])... where the word "THIS" refers to this SPECIFIC group ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")...

...and where 2Cor5 further elaborates on the "mortal" aspect (the "we which are ALIVE and remain" aspect) when it refers to "clothed upon"... meaning, clothed-upon with our new glorified / perfected bodies immediately, APART FROM having to DIE first (this occurs at a particular point in time... one point in time only... that is, when it's time for the "caught up together"/SNATCH-action [aka "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"]--promised only to, and pertaining only to/for/about, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those having come to faith "in this present age [singular]"--Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence);... no, not ever since the Garden of Eden, as you say it has]
..."rapture" does not pertain to OT saints, not to Trib saints, not to Millennial Kingdom saints... none of those saints were promised "rapture / SNATCH / caught up / harpazo [G726]"... ONLY "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (made up of both Jew and Gentile, but CONSIDERED NEITHER in our standing before God "IN CHRIST").

For example, the Trib saints who survive clear through to the of the 7 Trib years [/70th Week; ex.Dan12:12's "BLESSED is he that WAITETH and COMETH TO the 1335 days"] as "STILL-LIVING / STILL-ALIVE" will ENTER the earthly MK age [aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS"] will ENTER THE MK in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing / bearing children [NO "UNBELIEVERS / FAITHLESS / UNSAVED" persons will ENTER the MK age, which commences upon Christ's "RETURN" to the earth--Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the "MEAL [G347; see also Matt8:11 and its parallel]." )

Your viewpoint does not take into consideration ALL that Scripture has to say on the Subject related to this. Your viewpoint merely picks out certain passages while at the same time disregarding large swaths of passages that pertain and inform us. They must ALL be taken into account, and agree with each other. The Bible proves itself and corrects those points where one veers off course from it... but only as one takes into account ALL that it has to say about a Subject. (I find yours greatly lacking in this... thus remain unconvinced of your viewpoint, which I see as falling way short...)

ewq1938 · Nov 19, 2021

lamad said:

No, his resurrection was not part of that one. He resurrected many many years before the dead people of the first resurrection group come back to life. But, their resurrection only can happen because of His!

lamad · Nov 19, 2021

I was really hoping that I could learn why so many people here believe in a posttrib rapture. I was hoping for some good bible exegesis so I could find out why people believe it.

Sadly, all I have seen is posttrib rhetoric with no exegesis. I guess there must be no verses that prove Paul's rapture will be posttrib.

Posttribbers: please help us out! Show us WHY you believe as you do. No rhetoric - just scripture line upon line, proving Paul's rapture is after the tribulation of those days...

lamad · Nov 19, 2021

DavidTree said:

It is all there in the KJV. One need look no further. However, it would require reading skills and understanding what one is reading.

ewq1938 · Nov 19, 2021

lamad said:

Paul placed the second coming and the rapture at the same timeframe and the second coming is after the GT which you have already admitted. See, you don't post scripture to prove what you claim. You only claim it. I, however, can prove what I claim with scripture:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 19, 2021

ewq1938 said:

--"resurrection OF LIFE"

--"resurrection OF JUDGMENT / DAMNATION" (those participating in THIS one will experience/be hurt of "the second death")

John 5 -

26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He gave to the Son to have life in Himself. 27And He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth—those having done good to the resurrection of life, and those having done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

lamad · Nov 19, 2021

DavidTree said:

I must have missed where Jesus said that. Please post that verse so we can examine it?

ewq1938 · Nov 19, 2021

lamad said:

That's a false statement. You have see all the post-trib evidence but you go on and claim you haven't seen it. That's a dishonest tactic.

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4706201

Here you claim Apostasia means a physical departure and I correct you using the actual definition which means a defection from the truth. Still want to claim you have seen no evidence??

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4706065

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4705972

Here you posted a verse you think supports pre-trib but I explain that the verse has Christ coming to the Earth and nothing at all about returning with people back to heaven. Want to say you never saw that?

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4705994

Here you claim Jesus can return for the rapture at any time but scripture I posted refutes that false teaching! You didn't see that huh?

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4705932

And here I once again provide you with very clear and concise post-trib scripture which you claim didn't happen. This is typical dishonesty by pre-tribbers. And these are conversations just between us. It doesn't include all the post-trib posts by some many others that you claim never happened. You should apologize for the false things you say in this post.

lamad · Nov 19, 2021

ewq1938 said:

the second coming is after the GT which you have already admitted
No, sorry, I have never admitted such an error. The second coming will be His NEXT coming and that will be only to the air. It will be a coming FOR His saints. There is nothing in these verses about "every eye will see Him" and Armageddon. There is only one Angel. This gathering gathers from earth.

will God bring with him.(second coming reference) True. He came once, so His coming FOR His saints will be His second coming.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) True, but pretrib. His coming to Armageddon will be His 3rd (third) coming.

the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ) True

The truth is, Paul places his gathering BEFORE the Day of the Lord and BEFORE wrath. And where does wrath begin in Revelation? with the DAY of His wrath: 6th seal.

Revelation 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Please take note, this is not in Rev. 19 where Jesus comes to Armageddon. It is before John starts any part of the 70th week. This is one reason why I believe in a pretrib rapture: it is provable in scripture.

ewq1938 · Nov 19, 2021

lamad said:

Paul describes it as a loud event with a shout and a trumpet. There is no secret or silent return before the one and only second coming after the end of the GT

But the resurrection of the dead in Christ happens after the GT not before it. We part of this in Revelation 20 when the people beheaded in the GT are those of the first resurrection. You cannot have the first resurrection before these saints are beheaded.

No, Paul places the resurrection and rapture on the day of the Lord, not before it. We are discussing those very scriptures!

False. That is describing the events of the same day,

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

When do people know Christ's wrath is about to happen? The one and only second coming at the 7th trump:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

That reward in verse 17 is the resurrection and rapture proving a post tribulation rapture.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 19, 2021

Regarding the "SHOUT"...

...consider the following two points:

1) 1 Thessalonians 1:16 -

Literal Standard Version
because the LORD Himself, with [/in] a shout, with [/in] the voice of a chief-messenger, and with [/in] the trumpet of God, will come down from Heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first;

Young's Literal Translation
because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,

Literal Emphasis Translation
Since the Lord Himself in a rousing command in the voice of an archangel and in the trumpet of God, will descend away from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise up first.

[meaning, "rise" from the dead, bodily... i.e. be resurrected ('to stand again')... before we're "caught up [/snatched up] together [/at the same time]..."]

So, v.16 sounds to me as though it's saying,
"... the Lord Himself, IN shout, IN voice of archangel / chief-messenger [no definite article here, as there is present in Jude 9 (re: Michael, there)], and IN trumpet of God, shall descend from Heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,"

2) and especially this point:

Acts 22:9 -

Berean Literal Bible
And those being with me indeed beheld the light, but they did not hear the voice of the One speaking to me.

King James Bible
And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

... so... entirely possible.

[I've posted before about Numbers 10:4... when the trumpet gives a certain sound]

ewq1938 · Nov 20, 2021

Another misunderstood pre-trib proof text:

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

7 churches are mentioned of the Christians in the first century yet pre-trib takes one line from one letter and uses it as if this one thing somehow proves the entire church will be raptured before the great tribulation. That's horribly bad exegesis.

The problems:

1. Obviously, it's only said about 1/7 of the churches so that isn't a pre-trib rapture of the whole church.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

2, The fact that tribulation is mentioned for one of the other churches further disproves any idea that the church won't face tribulation. ie: this verse cancels out the other verse. The truth is that neither is talking about the rapture or the great tribulation.

3. "keep thee from the hour of temptation" is not the same as "rapture you out of the world to avoid the great tribulation". This means to not fall for or accept the temptations offered like how Christ refused the temptations of satan.

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to BEAR it.

One can escape something by being able to bear it. It is not a physical escape but a mental and spiritual one.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 20, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

EDIT to correct: should read "1 Thessalonians 4:16 (not 1:16)

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 20, 2021

ewq1938 said:

One should understand this part:

... as it is not about you personally being "patient" (it is instead "THE WORD OF the patient-endurance of Me" ["kept" THAT])

"keep thee OUT-FROM [ek] THE HOUR OF the trial" (i.e. the TIME PERIOD of it)

...study out this word "DWELL"... and then what it means when it says, "to try THEM THAT DWELL UPON THE EARTH" (which is NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"

).

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 20, 2021

ewq1938 said:

I don't see "resurrection" or "rapture" as a "REWARD"

Sure, we have those things because of our connection with CHRIST.

Here's the word for "reward [G3408]":
(at BibleHub)

Definition: wages, hire
Usage: (a) pay, wages, salary, (b) reward, recompense, punishment.

HELPS Word-studies
3408 misthós (a primitive word, so NAS dictionary) – a reward (recompense) that appropriately compensates a particular decision (action).

CS1 · Nov 20, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

it's not curse lol

How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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