How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[lamad]

That's a false statement. You have see all the post-trib evidence but you go on and claim you haven't seen it. That's a dishonest tactic.

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4706201

Here you claim Apostasia means a physical departure and I correct you using the actual definition which means a defection from the truth. Still want to claim you have seen no evidence??

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4706065

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4705972

Here you posted a verse you think supports pre-trib but I explain that the verse has Christ coming to the Earth and nothing at all about returning with people back to heaven. Want to say you never saw that?

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4705994

Here you claim Jesus can return for the rapture at any time but scripture I posted refutes that false teaching! You didn't see that huh?

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4705932

And here I once again provide you with very clear and concise post-trib scripture which you claim didn't happen. This is typical dishonesty by pre-tribbers. And these are conversations just between us. It doesn't include all the post-trib posts by some many others that you claim never happened. You should apologize for the false things you say in this post.

That's a false statement. You have see all the post-trib evidence but you go on and claim you haven't seen it. That's a dishonest tactic. No, I made a true statement. I have seen the gathering in Matthew 24 over and over, but so far no one has offered any proof at all that it is Paul's rapture. I see only rhetoric that it is, with no proof.

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4706065
From Strong's:
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

Please show us what part of this compound word shows us WHAT is being departed FROM? I think Strong was ad libbing when he wrote "from the truth." He ended with "falling away, forsake." I can buy those because he does not add anything. I don't think "from the truth" is included in apostasia - only a forsaking or a departing. That is proven by several of the first translations into English put it as a departing - nothing more added.

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake G646 Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. Notice here the writer has to state what is being forsaken: in this case moses. Paul added nothing in 2 thes. 2, so no one can say WHAT was being departed from. One could only GUESS it was from the truth.

However, Strongs goes much farther, showing us what EACH of the words that makes up the compound word apo-stasia. So you believe Strong here, but don't believe him there. Do you think each word of a compound word loses its meaning when compounded with another word?

I can readily agree that the common use for apostasia is to forsake, or a falling away or a departing. Any one of those words will work. But WHICH ONE fits the context of Paul's passage when translated from Greek to English?

If we insist on a falling away (from what is not stated) we are left with a major problem. You see, because Paul ended verse 3 with the man of sin revealed, and told us that he could not be revealed until the restrainer was taken out of the way, then whatever Paul meant by apostasia MUST BE the restraining power taken out of the way. So what we have is a falling away restraining the revealing. How in the world can that make sense? If anything it would HASTEN the revealing.

Then we have Paul writing "and now you know who is restraining..."

So there can be no doubt that Paul's intent for "apostasia" is the restrainer being removed. This is why I think "departing" is a better choice than a falling away.

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4706065
There's at least 2000 years inbetween his mansion building in heaven and his second coming which he speaks of. Plus, the second coming does not stop at the clouds. He descends to the Earth and will step on the ground at some point.
I think building mansions has been ongoing since He ascended. Every time someone gets born again, another mansion must be built.
the second coming does not stop at the clouds. He descends to the Earth and will step on the ground at some point. Now you are adding to Paul's scripture There can be no doubt that Paul's "coming" in 1 Thes. 4 will be His NEXT coming, and Paul mentions NOTHING about Jesus not stopping but continuing on down. You find that (or a strong hint of that) in Rev. 19 when He comes to Armageddon. It appears very much like you are trying to FORCE two comings into one. Many people have made lists showing the differences between the two comings. Frankly, I don't see how anyone can mash them together.

Jesus does not say when he comes, that he takes anyone to heaven. You add that into the passage Paul does not say, but John does. Remember the homes He went to prepare. John 14 does not give us any timing for His coming to get us, but Paul does. I see no problems with putting John 14 with Paul's rapture. It seems to fit together easily. I cannot think of any scripture it would go against.

So far your posttrib scriptures are not - simple as that. Maybe in your mind they are.

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4705972
So where is Christ and all the saved Christians? Earth.

We have been over this one before. Where is Christ? You did not answer the question as to WHEN since He is in different places at different times. Let's look: ""I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." At the moment He receives the church, He will be IN THE AIR and IN THE CLOUD - so your answer fails. The truth is, Neither John nor Paul tell us where He goes after we meet Him in the air. HOWEVER, the general theme of John's passage is that he has gone and made homes for us, so the reasonable answer is that He will return to heaven with the church, TAKING us to the homes prepared.

So far you have batted Zero. I don't see anything so far as a very good proof of a posttrib rapture. I see you inserting your believe into scripture just the way most people do.

I am quitting for the night.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[con't]

G3408 - "reward"


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3408: μισθός

μισθός, μισθοῦ, ὁ (from Homer down), the Sept. for שָׂכָר, also for מַשְׂכֹּרֶת, etc.;
1. dues paid for work; wages, hire: Romans 4:4 (κατά ὀφείλημα); in a prov., Luke 10:7 and 1 Timothy 5:18; Matthew 20:8; James 5:4; Jude 1:11 (on which see ἐκχέω, at the end); μισθός ἀδικίας, wages obtained by iniquity, Acts 1:18; 2 Peter 2:15 (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 30, 1 a.).

2. reward: used — of the fruit naturally resulting from toils and endeavors, John 4:36; 1 Corinthians 9:18; — of divine recompense:

a. in both senses, rewards and punishments: Revelation 22:12.

b. of the rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavors (on the correct theory about which cf. Weiss, Die Lehre Christi vom Lohn, in the Deutsche Zeitschr. für christl. Wissenschaft, 1853, p. 319ff; Mehlhorn,

d. Lohnbegr. Jesu, in the Jahrbb. f. protest. Theol., 1876, p. 721ff; (cf. Beyer in Herzog xx, pp. 4-14)): Matthew 5:12; Matthew 6:2, 5, 16; Matthew 10:41; Mark 9:41; Luke 6:23, 35; 1 Corinthians 3:8, 14; 2 John 1:8; Revelation 11:18; ἔχειν μισθόν, to have a reward, is used of those for whom a reward is reserved by God, whom a divine reward awaits, Matthew 5:46; 1 Corinthians 9:17; with παρά τῷ πατρί ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς added, Matthew 6:1.

c. of punishments: μισθός ἀδικίας, 2 Peter 2:13; τῆς δυσσεβείας, 2 Macc. 8:33.



[and]

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

reward, wages.
Apparently a primary word; pay for service (literally or figuratively), good or bad -- hire, reward, wages.


-- https://biblehub.com/greek/3408.htm

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"The WAGES of sin is death, but the GIFT OF GOD is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" ("resurrection" and "rapture" are connected with that "GIFT"... of eternal LIFE);



When we are at the "BEMA" of Christ, it will be for "REWARD" (NOT for the conferring of "eternal life" or "resurrection" or "rapture"); "REWARD" is for "work":




1Cor3 -

12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No earthling is ......saved ......until after physical death and God's judgement decrees that we are saved.

Ephesians 2:5b says, "by grace you are [present indicative] having been saved [PERFECT participle, verb]"... which sounds weird to our English manner of speaking and grammar.


-- https://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/2-5.htm



["PERFECT tense" - "ACTION COMPLETED at a SPECIFIC POINT of TIME in PAST (.) with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT (.--->)"]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Never listen to anyone who contradicts themselves in the same post.

What about like how @DavidTree contradicts himself in his Post #12 of a different thread, where he said:

[DT said] God's Irreversible Order established in Scripture

1.) Tribulation, Persecution, Death for those who choose Eternal Life
2.) Man of sin revealed
3.) His Second Coming
4.) First Resurrection of the dead in Christ
5.) remaining Saints gathered/raptured
6.) Wrath of the Lamb poured out

-- Post #12 - https://christianchat.com/threads/chronology.202526/post-4705703




If it's true that the first thing in the "ORDER [/SEQUENCE]" is "DEATH for those who choose Eternal Life"... then how can it ALSO be true that the fifth thing to take place in the "ORDER [/SEQUENCE]," is that the "REMAINING Saints [are] gathered/raptured"??

What "remaining Saints" are there (at the #5 point in the sequence), if there was [supposedly] "DEATH for those who CHOOSE ETERNAL LIFE" (at the #1 point in the sequence)??

This does NOT "compute"

(but DT hasn't even noticed his several posts saying that ALL believers will DIE before the end of the Trib years--so that NONE fit in the category of the "we which are ALIVE and remain" portion of the "one body," according to what he's been presenting lately... ).

 

[ewq1938]

What about like how @DavidTree contradicts himself in his Post #12 of a different thread, where he said:

[DT said] God's Irreversible Order established in Scripture

1.) Tribulation, Persecution, Death for those who choose Eternal Life
2.) Man of sin revealed
3.) His Second Coming
4.) First Resurrection of the dead in Christ
5.) remaining Saints gathered/raptured
6.) Wrath of the Lamb poured out

-- Post #12 - https://christianchat.com/threads/chronology.202526/post-4705703




If it's true that the first thing in the "ORDER [/SEQUENCE]" is "DEATH for those who choose Eternal Life"... then how can it ALSO be true that the fifth thing to take place in the "ORDER [/SEQUENCE]," is that the "REMAINING Saints [are] gathered/raptured"??

What "remaining Saints" are there (at the #5 point in the sequence), if there was [supposedly] "DEATH for those who CHOOSE ETERNAL LIFE" (at the #1 point in the sequence)??

This does NOT "compute"

(but DT hasn't even noticed his several posts saying that ALL believers will DIE before the end of the Trib years--so that NONE fit in the category of the "we which are ALIVE and remain" portion of the "one body," according to what he's been presenting lately... ).

Your post is unreadable.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your post is unreadable.

In DavidTree's Post #12 contradicting itself, which you warned others not to believe ppl who contradict themselves within their own posts, he said God's Irreversible Order / Sequence established in Scripture is:
"1) ... DEATH to those who choose Eternal Life"
but then has at the later number "5) remaining Saints gathered/raptured"


These do not compute or agree amongst themselves, but rather "contradict"... within the same post.


DT's Post #12 - https://christianchat.com/threads/chronology.202526/post-4705703 [one can read it plainly, there]

ewq1938 said:

Never listen to anyone who contradicts themselves in the same post.

... yet, I see you continually agreeing with DavidTree's posts.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

#5 - separates Jew from Gentile in the Body of Christ

Untrue.




And I covered that point (in part) in my Post #3205 (in the largest paragraph of that post):

Post #3205 - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4707055

 

[peldom10]

First of all it has yet to be established that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a false teaching. You can make that claim, but there are hundreds of thousands of Christians who will tell you that you are clueless. As to saying that those who do not believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture are lost and hell bound, that would be as stupid as saying that the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is heresy.

The most that anyone should do is simply say that they do not agree with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, even though they cannot produce any evidence that it is not so. Vitriol and venom cannot replace Bible interpretation.

In that conclusion are you considering the need for a believer to believe in God's word...totally? The rapture is as clearly presented in scriptures as;

Need for repentance
Need for baptism
Need to be righteous until the end
The Birth of Christ
The sacrifice of Christ on the cross
The resurrection
The 2nd advent
etc.

So why shouldn't the rapture be believed also?

We must recognize that there is a new age religion movement in Christianity on many commandments ;

Homosexuality is ok
Same sex togetherness (not marriage......only man and woman can be married ...per the Bible)
No need to keep God's commandments (Andy Stanley...recently...it is reported)
Universalism (all will be saved)
OSAS
Baptism not necessary
etc...
All of which have only been advocated since the 1960's (based on search to date)....along with new age religion bibles slanted to support those beliefs during the same era.

It is time for Christians to stand up and maintain God's commandments in all forms of witnessing for our Lord and Savior....regardless of opposition.

 

[DavidTree]

I am so glad you believe in Paul's rapture and that it will happen with Jesus' coming. Now all you need to add is that this coming will be before wrath and before the Day or the Lord: the order Paul establishes.

Like i said before, you are a later comer here - all the pre-tribbers know that i declare only Scripture on this subject.
i have always spoken the TRUTH = 1 Thessalonians 1:10

and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

A.) wait for the Lord's Coming
B.) the Resurrection
C.) the Lamb delivers us from the wrath of the Lamb

One Second Coming with two outcomes = Deliverance for His Elect and wrath upon the ungodly = John 3:16-18

The only people who add and take away from God's word are those who desperately want pre-trib to be true.

 

[Nehemiah6]

In that conclusion are you considering the need for a believer to believe in God's word...totally? The rapture is as clearly presented in scriptures as;

I am in full agreement with what you have said here. But if someone wants to take issue with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, all they should do is say that they do not believe this doctrine. But to go on and on about it being a heresy, and a lie, and a twisting of the Scripture is just evil-speaking without a shred of truth.

Here's a good example of falsely accusing the brethren by David Tree: "The only people who add and take away from God's word are those who desperately want pre-trib to be true." That is a very serious false accusation, and bearing false witness -- a sin.

 

[DavidTree]

Untrue.




And I covered that point (in part) in my Post #3205 (in the largest paragraph of that post):

Post #3205 - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4707055

i suggest you re-examine your own words/post #3205 in the Light of Scripture because 'they ain't right Brother'.........especially your last paragraph on Matthew 8:5-12

Read again Matt 8:10-12

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came and pleaded with Him, 6“Lord, my servantc lies at home, paralyzed and in terrible agony.”

7“I will go and heal him,” Jesus replied.

8The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have You come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell one to go, and he goes; and another to come, and he comes. I tell my servant to do something, and he does it.”

10When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you.” And his servant was healed at that very hour.

 

[Runningman]

First of all it has yet to be established that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a false teaching. You can make that claim, but there are hundreds of thousands of Christians who will tell you that you are clueless. As to saying that those who do not believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture are lost and hell bound, that would be as stupid as saying that the doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is heresy.

The most that anyone should do is simply say that they do not agree with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, even though they cannot produce any evidence that it is not so. Vitriol and venom cannot replace Bible interpretation.

At least be open to and try to understand why the post-tribbers are saying this. This applies to everyone, not just you or me, but I think we should occasionally ask for forgiveness and ask God to help us understand the Bible. Sometimes this is difficult and might require forgetting most (or all) of what we thought we knew and starting back at square one.

 

[cv5]

Did you never read?

Heb. 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

WHO is He going to appear to in His second coming? ONLY to those who are looking for Him, EXPECTING Him.

I wonder, are YOU expecting Him tonight? If He came tonight, would His coming catch you by surprise?
He is correct: There is MUCH of the church around the world - people who call themselves "Christian" who have never been "born again." They are not qualified for the rapture for they are not "In Christ." This is not a "twist," it is TRUTH. I am amazed you don't recognize it as truth.

Agree. Anticipating and preparing for the arrival of the Lord at any moment in earnest expectation is the defining attribute of believers alone.

 

[cv5]

Behold the discombobulated DaveTree Special. I love you, Dave. I really do.

I will admit that I do get tired of ingesting DavidTrees "word salads".....day after day after day. It's also far too heavily seasoned with accusations of ignorance and blasphemy.....

 

[lamad]

Like i said before, you are a later comer here - all the pre-tribbers know that i declare only Scripture on this subject.
i have always spoken the TRUTH = 1 Thessalonians 1:10

and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

A.) wait for the Lord's Coming
B.) the Resurrection
C.) the Lamb delivers us from the wrath of the Lamb

One Second Coming with two outcomes = Deliverance for His Elect and wrath upon the ungodly = John 3:16-18

The only people who add and take away from God's word are those who desperately want pre-trib to be true.

I learned in English Lit' class "there are two kinds of truth." You have made it abundantly clear what YOUR "truth" is.

For example, you point to Jesus words of His coming after the tribulation of those days and declare this is proof of a posttrib rapture - as if you have really proved something. All you have really proven is that there will be A COMING after the tribulation of those days and a gathering. To demand that others believe as you do that it is the SAME COMING as Paul shows us in 1 Thes. would take at least some shred of SCRIPTURAL evidence, which to date you have not shown. We all agree He will certainly come after the trib." That fact is proven in scripture. And John shows us that coming in detail in Revelation 19.

Let's start there: Do you agree that the Revelation 19 coming is the same coming Jesus tells us of "after the tribulation of those days?"

 

[cv5]

That's a false statement. You have see all the post-trib evidence but you go on and claim you haven't seen it. That's a dishonest tactic. No, I made a true statement. I have seen the gathering in Matthew 24 over and over, but so far no one has offered any proof at all that it is Paul's rapture. I see only rhetoric that it is, with no proof.

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4706065
From Strong's:
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

Please show us what part of this compound word shows us WHAT is being departed FROM?He ended with "falling away, forsake." I can buy those because he does not add anything. I don't think "from the truth" is included in apostasia - only a forsaking or a departing. That is proven by several of the first translations into English put it as a departing - nothing more added.

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake G646 Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. Notice here the writer has to state what is being forsaken: in this case moses. Paul added nothing in 2 thes. 2, so no one can say WHAT was being departed from. One could only GUESS it was from the truth.

However, Strongs goes much farther, showing us what EACH of the words that makes up the compound word apo-stasia. So you believe Strong here, but don't believe him there. Do you think each word of a compound word loses its meaning when compounded with another word?

I can readily agree that the common use for apostasia is to forsake, or a falling away or a departing. Any one of those words will work. But WHICH ONE fits the context of Paul's passage when translated from Greek to English?

If we insist on a falling away (from what is not stated) we are left with a major problem. You see, because Paul ended verse 3 with the man of sin revealed, and told us that he could not be revealed until the restrainer was taken out of the way, then whatever Paul meant by apostasia MUST BE the restraining power taken out of the way. So what we have is a falling away restraining the revealing. How in the world can that make sense? If anything it would HASTEN the revealing.

Then we have Paul writing "and now you know who is restraining..."

So there can be no doubt that Paul's intent for "apostasia" is the restrainer being removed. This is why I think "departing" is a better choice than a falling away.

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4706065
There's at least 2000 years inbetween his mansion building in heaven and his second coming which he speaks of. Plus, the second coming does not stop at the clouds. He descends to the Earth and will step on the ground at some point.
I think building mansions has been ongoing since He ascended. Every time someone gets born again, another mansion must be built.
the second coming does not stop at the clouds. He descends to the Earth and will step on the ground at some point. Now you are adding to Paul's scripture There can be no doubt that Paul's "coming" in 1 Thes. 4 will be His NEXT coming, and Paul mentions NOTHING about Jesus not stopping but continuing on down. You find that (or a strong hint of that) in Rev. 19 when He comes to Armageddon. It appears very much like you are trying to FORCE two comings into one. Many people have made lists showing the differences between the two comings. Frankly, I don't see how anyone can mash them together.

Jesus does not say when he comes, that he takes anyone to heaven. You add that into the passage Paul does not say, but John does. Remember the homes He went to prepare. John 14 does not give us any timing for His coming to get us, but Paul does. I see no problems with putting John 14 with Paul's rapture. It seems to fit together easily. I cannot think of any scripture it would go against.

So far your posttrib scriptures are not - simple as that. Maybe in your mind they are.

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4705972
So where is Christ and all the saved Christians? Earth.

We have been over this one before. Where is Christ? You did not answer the question as to WHEN since He is in different places at different times. Let's look: ""I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." At the moment He receives the church, He will be IN THE AIR and IN THE CLOUD - so your answer fails. The truth is, Neither John nor Paul tell us where He goes after we meet Him in the air. HOWEVER, the general theme of John's passage is that he has gone and made homes for us, so the reasonable answer is that He will return to heaven with the church, TAKING us to the homes prepared.

So far you have batted Zero. I don't see anything so far as a very good proof of a posttrib rapture. I see you inserting your believe into scripture just the way most people do.

I am quitting for the night.

"I think Strong was ad libbing when he wrote "from the truth."

Totally agree...

 

[DavidTree]

I am in full agreement with what you have said here. But if someone wants to take issue with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, all they should do is say that they do not believe this doctrine. But to go on and on about it being a heresy, and a lie, and a twisting of the Scripture is just evil-speaking without a shred of truth.

Here's a good example of falsely accusing the brethren by David Tree: "The only people who add and take away from God's word are those who desperately want pre-trib to be true." That is a very serious false accusation, and bearing false witness -- a sin.

You know, you hit some hot buttons here.

Everyone who says the LORD wil pre-trib rapture His Elect add to God's words as satan did in the Garden.

Nehemiah6, you have had 3 months to bring forth one scripture that states 'Christ will rapture His Elect BEFORE HIS COMING and the RESURRECTION.

Not one time, not one verse, never have you or anyone been able to find in scripture what does not exist.

There is no sin of accepting the word's of CHRIST who says: Matt ch24

While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
4Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’
30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Nehemiah6, for my love you have continually poured out hate - the Lord did not do this - read John ch8

 

[DavidTree]

I will admit that I do get tired of ingesting DavidTrees "word salads".....day after day after day. It's also far too heavily seasoned with accusations of ignorance and blasphemy.....

Mr. Blasphemy himself = CV5 =who changes Scripture with no fear of God in your heart

You changed/twisted/adulterated 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 to say the 'falling away is 'pre-trib rapture'

You will give an account and pay for this evil.

CV5, Nehimiah6 and other are the false friends of Job

 

[DavidTree]

I learned in English Lit' class "there are two kinds of truth." You have made it abundantly clear what YOUR "truth" is.

For example, you point to Jesus words of His coming after the tribulation of those days and declare this is proof of a posttrib rapture - as if you have really proved something. All you have really proven is that there will be A COMING after the tribulation of those days and a gathering. To demand that others believe as you do that it is the SAME COMING as Paul shows us in 1 Thes. would take at least some shred of SCRIPTURAL evidence, which to date you have not shown. We all agree He will certainly come after the trib." That fact is proven in scripture. And John shows us that coming in detail in Revelation 19.

Let's start there: Do you agree that the Revelation 19 coming is the same coming Jesus tells us of "after the tribulation of those days?"

You failed both English and Math Class with your 'adding and taking away' from God's words = multiple Second Comings of Christ

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

The LORDS's words are a shield to me that protects me from those who lie and speak of a false pre-trib rapture which God never spoke - not once.