Touchy Subject - Deliverance Ministry/Mental Disorders(and just my life..)

tif · Jun 17, 2011

Maggie, you have not taught me anything, and I don't believe your belief system can. You expect me to write a thesis on this when I am dead tired after 11 hours of work and have nine more 'till work the next day? I don't have the time. If that sounds cold to you, I'm sorry. But I am the only Christian in a very secular workplace. I need to rest myself for the work God has for me, not running my mouth (or fingers) in circles with you in the wee hours of the morning.

I have prayed continually that God would show me if I was being hard-headed, stuck-up, full of myself, unteachable or just plain wrong. And I read what you wrote with an honestly open heart, asking God to speak to me. What I see when I read your words is just a jumble of what Christians term "faith healing" and nonChristians "the power of positivity." And God never tells us we won't suffer. In fact, we're told by Jesus Himself that we WILL suffer for His name. And Paul tells us how little the suffering matters when we're focused on Jesus Christ and His infinite love and forgiveness.

I'm linking a video of a young mand with a very powerful story. His parents are a pastor and a pastor's wife, good people who have dedicated their lives to spreading God's word. He had no family with this disability. So, I doubt it was a generational issue with him. And he was too young at birth to be harboring negative thoughts or emotions. God has used him to reach millions with his message, and hundreds of thousands have come to God because of his witness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl58qufXfYk

tif · Jun 17, 2011

vahn said:

Vahn: It could be Satan's evil plan to cause people God loves to turn from medications that could save their lives or bring them into enough balance to be used by God.

There are a lot of "faith healers" and "positive thinkers" who make a LOT of money at their jobs. I think anything that takes the focus off God (ie, "If you have enough faith, you'll be healed") instead of putting it on Him (ie, "The Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord!"), it isn't right thinking or biblical.

Medication isn't bad, you're right, if used judiciously. There is a terrible propensity for many psychiatrists to overprescribe psych medications. That is why I ALWAYS urge people to seek a second opinion if they don't feel right about their doctor's opinion.

vahn · Jun 17, 2011

And the amount of faith has nothing to do with it. You think that Maggie or I, I'm not entirely sure; believe in such rubbish.

Medication is good and God's grace I believe in.

Mental illness is spiritual.

Are we on the same page now?

CrimsonFlames · Jun 17, 2011

I dont know what you theology is but I can offer some advice

Make sure your leaning on the Cross.., standing under the covenant of Grace. Completey accepting Christs work and not reaching upon your own works to justify yourself. Ive heard it said.., mixing the Law with Grace only ends in insanity. Love is the fulfilment of the Law., and dont run too far with it coz Im not saying the Law is no more. Just that you should be relying on Christ and know that God loves you for you.

Stop oppressing yourself will feelings of self condemnation and let Gods love abound in you.., stop letting the devil steal the Joy of God from your life

Come back to the gospel of grace my friend.., for by Grace and Grace alone are we saved

Peace and Gods Love be with you always

tif · Jun 17, 2011

I don't believe mental illness is spiritual. I believe mental illness is sometimes a result of environment, sometimes genetics or biology, and sometimes a mix of both. Also, there is the distinct possibility (and even, probability) that some with deep-seated spiritual issues are misdiagnosed with mental health concerns. (Not that a lot of people aren't misdiagnosed as it is... I forget the exact statistic, but most people don't get a correct dx in the first go-around.)

And, indeed, read Maggie's posts. She does not believe in medicine for mental illness, diabetes, tuberculosis, or cancer. I have some difficulty following some of her posts, but I think she believes in faith healing... Correct me if I'm incorrect in that regard, Maggie.

The problem with that stance is the repercussions for those affected by mental illness and other disorders. While I don't think all or even most cases end up with death, it's a definite possibility. And the issue isn't insignificant:

Faith-Healing Couple Convicted in Son's Death, Christian News
In Child Deaths, a Test for Christian Science - NYTimes.com
A Child's Death And a Crisis for Faith - WSJ.com
Jehovah's Witness refuses to consent to a blood transfusion | Video - ABC News

I'm not saying you, vahn, or Maggie specifically agree with the views of the parents who have killed their children by disallowing medical care. But this is why its important in cases of mental health as well, because 90% of all "successful" suicides are completed by those with mental illness. People with illness in their brains need love, care, treatment, therapy...

AnandaHya · Jun 17, 2011

read the book of Job. God allows people to suffer sometimes to test them.

People are spiritually healed upon confession of faith and belief in their hearts. they are not completely physically healed until resurrection unless God wills it. Read the lives of the prophets.

Disease and illness have causes can you say for sure you know the reasons for every single person's illness?

AnandaHya · Jun 17, 2011

vahn said:

only if you believe all other illness are spiritual as well and it is all caused by the sinful nature of the WORLD not the individuals suffering.

Not unless you look pass the law of karma and move on to the salvation of Faith and Grace as Jesus taught people. then yeah if you believe JESUS came to save all people who believe and for the remission of sins and those who have been reborn but have been given the Holy Spirit and can NOT be possessed since the Holy Spirit lives inside of them and they are no longer under the rules and laws of Moses or Karma.we're on the same page.

Also God is in control and sometimes DOCTORS and medicine are the hands and feet and means He uses to reach and save His children.

AnandaHya · Jun 17, 2011

here is just one example of a lie:

" God had NO CHOICE but to stand back and allow it."

Now I believe that the Bible says God is ALL powerful. how then does he have NO Choice?

you make Sin and Satan more powerful by that statement by limiting GOD's power, and that is a LIE.(it may not be what you intended by your words but if not a clarification of a few points are definitely needed. just reread your post and see for yourself there is a lot of room for misunderstanding and unbiblical conclusions from just reading those posts.)

I can give you more but I'd rather go swimming with the kids and trust the HOLY SPIRIT to guide those who read these post and lead them to His truth and Love.

I recommend everyone go reread Job. This discussion reminds me of why people suffer and how the three FALSE friends argued that it was Job's fault and how God answered it was NOT. Read God's words it will help you more then reading mine or anyone elses.

May God bless All those who truly seek His heart and the knowledge to walk in His way.

vahn · Jun 17, 2011

AnandaHya said:

No. Let him who hears understand.

Never said that by the way or intended it. Please people, stop putting words in my posts.

Job's suffering was spiritual, God also willed for him to be free, just as he wills for all of us to be free from the bondage Satan puts us through.

Sure there are times where people are not completely healed; but they become much more like Jesus which voids out any diagnosed illness set upon the person. As I said before we will never be perfect in this life, but will become much more like Christ until he returns.

You think Jesus died for only part of the world or all of it?

Pie · Jun 17, 2011

AnandaHya said:

This is a misunderstanding of God's nature. God is all powerful.. This means "he can do everything that is meaningful, everything that is possible, everything that makes any sense at all. God cannot make himself cease to exist..He cannot make good evil. He can't make mistakes. Only weak and stupid beings make mistakes." - Kreeft
God cannot sin.. God cannot be unjust... God cannot do evil. Why? Because he is all-powerful, holy, and all-knowing.

Sin is a consequence of free will and yes.. sickness is in the world because of sin. I do believe mental illnesses require healing... God has to heal the person's mind and soul because they are very very wounded. This makes them more susceptible to attacks from the enemy. To say that the enemy has no involvement whatsoever in mental illness.. I think is silly. We know anger... rage...regret... guilt... depression.. strife...confusion...lack of self-control...self-hatred...condemnation ...are all fruits of the enemy.. Yet... We claim... he has no involvement here? Hmmm... I agree that love is by far the most powerfull thing to heal these people.. God's love. But there is freedom.... and to make it sound like this is just how it is... well .. that's a lie from the devil too. I personally am good friends with a lady who had such bad schizophrenia that she had to be put in a mental institution.. She wouldn't even bathe herself and couldn't carry conversations with people.. God has completely set her free and healed her mind. No medications. So.. yes it's possible... Does this mean everyone with a mental illness should drop their meds? No.... Just like I wouldn't tell my father who has diabetes to drop off his insulin..If he did... he would be in the hospital in no time. Can God heal him? Certainly.. and I believe He will.. in His timing.

AnandaHya · Jun 17, 2011

vahn said:

vahn that was directed towards maggie. if you read SHE posted it.

I think we are on the same page but I'm not sure if I agree with her. unless you and her are the same person? I wasn't talking to you in the post you quoted to this response.

Job's suffering was NOT just spiritual. HE suffered in body and lost EVERYTHING except his faith in GOD and His righteousness.

I agree with you that "we will never be perfect in this life, but will become much more like Christ until He returns"

Actually if your reread most of my post are actually a question direct to her and those who believe as she does.

I just want to state that it is NOT demonic to see a doctor and take medicine. HER POST make it seem like it might be and I want her to clarify if that is what SHE means are not. you have already said medicine is fine in your book. She has NOT and that bothers me.

Since she always claims to be able to cast out demons and have "training" in such matters. she wishes to "teach" us and I believe that anything being "taught" needs to be Biblical and from GOD. what do you think?

any ways here is a few verses from Job that show it is NOT just spiritual:

Job 2:4-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
4 So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
6 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.”
7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. 8 And he took for himself a potsherd with which to scrape himself while he sat in the midst of the ashes.
9 Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!”
10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

God's ways are not our ways. We are to accept and praise God no matter what our life circumstance may be. Praise God for the good and accept also the adversity. That is what the Bible teaches, that is what the Holy Spirit helps us do each day of our lives.

Anyway Vahn. I hope you stay blessed.

Truthfully I do not place words in your mouth, if you read the other posts you will see it is not my words or your words I quote.

you will see what I mean when I state there are some concerning unbiblical things being said and should be examined in the light of God's Words in prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

AnandaHya · Jun 17, 2011

tif said:

that is such a touching story thank you for sharing it.

"the question is why God why did you make me this way? and the answer is 'Do you trust Me?'"

he was born with out arms and legs...but praises God for rescuing him and saving him and healing him.

AnandaHya · Jun 17, 2011

John 9

A Man Born Blind Receives Sight

1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. 4 I[a] must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
6 When He had said these things, He spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva; and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. 7 And He said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went and washed, and came back seeing.
8 Therefore the neighbors and those who previously had seen that he was blind said, “Is not this he who sat and begged?”
9 Some said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.”[c]
He said, “I am he.”
10 Therefore they said to him, “How were your eyes opened?”
11 He answered and said, “A Man called Jesus made clay and anointed my eyes and said to me, ‘Go to the pool of[d] Siloam and wash.’ So I went and washed, and I received sight.”
12 Then they said to him, “Where is He?”
He said, “I do not know.”

tif · Jun 17, 2011

vahn said:

Vahn, Ananda was quoting MAGGIE, not you.

And this next part is TO MAGGIE:

BUT GOD is NOW revealing these things to us so that we can BECOME the pure and holy Bride of Christ! He is NOT coming back for a bride that is sick, diseased or mentally ill!!!

Show me that God is not coming back for the "sick, diseased or mentally ill" IN THE BIBLE.

The ONLY thing we MUST endure is to die a physical death. Moses was never sick. Neither was Abraham, the Friend of God, nor David, nor Elijah or Elisha. Where do we read in the OT that ANY of the men who walked righteously were sick? We don't. But they DID all die.

Show me where it says "The ONLY thing we must endure is to die a physical death" IN THE BIBLE.

Abraham had a speech impediment. That's why he asked God to let someone else speak.

This psalm should be familiar to everyone. David wrote it:

1 The LORD is my shepherd, I lack nothing.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he refreshes my soul.
He guides me along the right paths
for his name’s sake.
4 Even though I walk
through the darkest valley,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely your goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.

What about Jacob, whose hip "The Angel" touched when he wrestled with Him? Jacob's hip was never the same.

And Elijah... Well...

1 Kings 19

1 Now Ahab told Jezebel everything Elijah had done and how he had killed all the prophets with the sword. 2 So Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah to say, “May the gods deal with me, be it ever so severely, if by this time tomorrow I do not make your life like that of one of them.”
3 Elijah was afraid and ran for his life. When he came to Beersheba in Judah, he left his servant there, 4 while he himself went a day’s journey into the wilderness. He came to a broom bush, sat down under it and prayed that he might die. “I have had enough, LORD,” he said. “Take my life; I am no better than my ancestors.” 5 Then he lay down under the bush and fell asleep.

All at once an angel touched him and said, “Get up and eat.” 6 He looked around, and there by his head was some bread baked over hot coals, and a jar of water. He ate and drank and then lay down again.

7 The angel of the LORD came back a second time and touched him and said, “Get up and eat, for the journey is too much for you.” 8 So he got up and ate and drank. Strengthened by that food, he traveled forty days and forty nights until he reached Horeb, the mountain of God. 9 There he went into a cave and spent the night.

Sounds kind of like depression to me. And suicidal thoughts. And suicidal actions (having gone into the desert a day's journey with no food or water and lying down to die sounds pretty serious to me.)

Do YOU see where my line of 'thinking', my line of teaching has the power to set people free from conditions that they enemy attacked them with?

No. I don't. Not at all.

When Adam ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good AND EVIL, he gave the whole human race ACCESS to knowledge about the spiritual realm. Do you know WHY God had to evict Adam and Eve from the Garden? It was so that they would not, in their sinful state, eat of the Tree of Life and be forced to FOREVER live, separated from Him. These truths are seldom taught from the pulpit, but consider how important they are!

Actually, Adam already had knowledge about the spiritual realm AT LEAST in part, since God Himself walked alongside Adam and Eve in the garden. This is why what you're saying is dangerous. Adam and Eve had never sinned up to eating the forbidden fruit. But it DOES NOT say "God gave the whole human race access to knowledge about the spiritual realm" in Genesis. It DOES say that their eyes were opened and they realized they were naked.

Show me where IN THE BIBLE it says there was no knowledge of the spiritual realm before the fall of man.

Yes, He does say 'wait'. But He never says wait to healing. He says 'wait' when it comes to our DOING something, not receiving what He paid for us to have....HAVE not Get as in the future.

WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY NOT TO WAIT FOR HEALING?

MaggieMye · Jun 18, 2011

Bottom line: If you do not UNDERSTAND that mental illness IS SPIRITUAL, there can never be true, complete healing. The spiritual MUST be deal with. All else is just bandaids from the world; psychotherapy, psychology, psychiatry, and all their medications/pharmacy, pharmakeia, witchcraft/rebellion.
One can believe it or not. It IS one's choice to remain in bondage. However, God did NOT create any human being to be relying on medications, not walking in the freedom of Christ.

There IS complete freedom. Many SAY they want it and even think they have it, yet the MUST take meds every day. That is not freedom. Most are either too religious to consider that they have the power and authority to OVERCOME and so are content to wait it out and continue to let the devil have his way in their bodies aned minds OR they are fearful of the unknown...what they have not been fed since childhood. Healing CAN come through the reading of the Word...especially out loud. But when it doesn't, deliverance is what is needed. Jesus cast the demons out of every person He healed. Look up the words "healed" and "Heal" and "healing"...also "made well"
Since the Bible clearly shows that sicknes and disease is cause by SOMEONE"S sin, personal or generational, and we know that sin opens the door of our minds and bodies to demons....giving them access, then we know that when healing takes place, the demons are evicted. Read any of these books to help you get a better understanding...especially the first one on the list: Amazon.com: spiritual healing They are all written by CHRISTIAN authors.

kiwiMERT · Jun 18, 2011

Oh vahn,

As a person who also has issues with mental health (comorbid depression, anxiety, history of psychotic episodes and possibly ptsd) I can honestly say I have a fair understanding from my own experiences... plus I'm studying to become a nurse/doctor... so have a wee bit of knowledge from both sodes of the fence

In my culture there are several different aspects to living whole and healthy, the one I'll waffle on about (because I love sharing my culture!) is called "Te Whare Papa Whaa" (the four corner stones of health), it's based on how a "whare" (meeting house is built)

The first corner stone is "Whanau" (family) the second is "Tinana" (physical), the third is "Hinengaro" (mental/emotional) and the last is "Wairua" (physical), if you take away one of the corner stones, then your Whare will fall apart and affect the other corner stones... for example... you ever wonder why when you're having a down, you get physically sick, and relationships become really hard etc? Everything is interconnected... when everything is in unity with one another then you feel better... sounds hippy trippy... maori health philosphy is based on looking at the person and their circumstances and how it affects them as a whole person... eg. patient breaks their leg, gets ill with comorbid depression because they've become immoble for an extended time withdraws from their friends and whanau, that person isn't a very healthy person... do you understand what I'm getting at?

I reckon it would be a good idea to be open about it and chat with your doctors about your struggles, maybe come up with some strategies together... plan and strategise with the people you love and who love you back (family, freinds, us) to support you...

I have a written plan I wrote out when I was well and clear minded with my case manager, my psychiatrist, my boyfriend and my family so on the days when I can't think, or if those voices are getting extra pesky and I'm struggling then I know that I wrote that when I had a clear head and I have a plan, I know what to do because it's on paper in front of me... signed with my signature and it's on my computer in front of me... I trust my boyfriend so when things get really tough I get a lot of support from him, and before I was able to write out that plan, he wrote one out with me watching (I was just too tired to even think)

I'll pray for you my friend, I pray for peaceful rest for your body and your mind and your spirit...

Rest up my friend, you have plenty of people who care about you!

AnandaHya · Jun 18, 2011

bottom line Maggie what you are promoting is DANGEROUS and UN BIBLICAL.

Telling people they should get off their meds is LIFE THREATENING and NOT something you should say or post over the internet.

You equate taking medicine to spiritual Bondage and that is a LIE. Sorry, but you are ENDANGERING LIVES. IF a person who has Diabetes then they stop taking their insulin they will die. Not might WILL.

YouTube - ‪Dave Hunt vs Joel Osteen - Part 2‬&rlm;

Your version of faith is not Biblical. Here is ONE example there are more in the Bible:

1 Timothy 5:23
No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.

Look the person Paul is talking to has Infirmities and was told to take medicine/ wine!

want another example of a person being sick and suffering, already gave you Job so maybe Paul?

2 Corinthians 12:8-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

kiwiMERT · Jun 18, 2011

Maggie,
Please \excuse me if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick here it's 4am here,

As a student of the medical profession, a follower of Christ, and somebody who has experience with chronic mental and physical illness sometimes illness is something spiritual and sometimes an illness is just an illness... and sometimes you just have to treat it that way...

That was one thing that really got to me and drove me to leave the church, was that when I was unwell, struggling with my thinking and with migraine, I was constantly being told that I needed to pray more, and read the bible because I had 'sinned' or that somebody in my family lines had 'sinned'

It had nothing to do with my generational lines or anything like that, it was just that I was plain ol' sick as a dog and was in desperate need of some help from a doctor!

Sometimes the answers can be really simple, why complicate it, it only makes it harder to find the solution in the first place!

KnightdeKhristos · Jun 18, 2011

MaggieMye said:

How are any of the above related to witchcraft?

MaggieMye said:

Scripture?

tif · Jun 18, 2011

MaggieMye said:

Are you going to answer my questions above? Or can you not, because the bible DOES NOT support what you said?

Now, I want to be 100%, completely, totally clear for everyone who's read this conversation. I have experienced GREAT healing in my mental illness, through God, to the point that I am no longer disabled by my illness, I can work a 40+ hour per week job, I no longer experience flashbacks, I no longer take medications, I rarely have anxiety in any form, I don't experience crippling depressions, and I no longer contemplate suicide or self-injury.

BUT THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN FOR EVERYONE.

I have three very strong Christian friends (women) who are all followers of Christ, active in church, attending bible study and study on their own, prayerful, loving, kind, sweet, powerful, and great women of God. One is a leader of the church choir, and she is one of the nicest, most Christ-centered women I know, always prayerful and bringing the focus back to God. Another is a beautiful older woman with three children and four grandchildren who is active in her church (a church which offers Christ-based therapy and a robust mental health ministry and has also hosted several conferences for Christian leaders in the mental health field), and she has been one of my closest confidants, always bringing the focus back to Christ and the word of God. My third friend is a shy, sweet woman who used to have a thriving career as an art curator and writer and is now (through the grace of God) working again as a freelancer; she is firmly grounded in the word of God and is still struggling to find the right treatment options, but she never gives up and is always prayerful.

All three of them take medications. All three of them fought medications for a long time, not wanting to take them (in no small part) because people like Maggie told them medications were unbiblical or evil or wrong. And none of them was able to come full-circle with activity in church and hope for the future until they had medication. Two of them fought it for years, and the grandmother (whom I've mentioned under the pseudonym "Kay") had to try every avenue of healing before she would even consider meds. She is one of the most wonderful women I know, and definitely someone I would go to for prayer and advice.

If you have a mental illness, medication is not THE ONLY treatment, but it is an IMPORTANT treatment for many, many, many Christians. And those of us who've been on meds as Christians didn't believe in God any less or believe in His ability to heal us any less. We just knew that 1) This is an illness with biological as well as environmental causes, and 2) Without the medications, all the prayer and bible study and faith and belief in God, none of it FIXED the illness.

I think the most apt summary of what I've said all along is:

The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. Blessed be the name of the Lord!!

Touchy Subject - Deliverance Ministry/Mental Disorders(and just my life..)

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