How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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1a) the LORD: "I am coming after the Tribulation."
1b) You: but as I stated before, this verse in NO WAY prevents Him from coming to the air 7 years previous.
Fallacy: Reversing the words of the Lord
the LORD says HE is not coming until AFTER the Tribulation - why are you arguing with the LORD Jesus Christ???
Which is correct statement 1a) or 1b)
1b) You: but as I stated before, this verse in NO WAY prevents Him from coming to the air 7 years previous.
Fallacy: Reversing the words of the Lord
the LORD says HE is not coming until AFTER the Tribulation - why are you arguing with the LORD Jesus Christ???
Which is correct statement 1a) or 1b)
Every time someone says 'pre-trib rapture' they are reversing the account/plan/purpose Christ spoke for His Bride/Church/Elect/Saints.
We have the details spoken by the LORD: "Immediately after the Tribulation......I am Coming." = Matt 24:29-31
There is not a single spoken word by the LORD to counter/reverse/alter or change His timing, after the Tribulation,on His Coming.
God is not the author of confusion.
We have the details spoken by the LORD: "Immediately after the Tribulation......I am Coming." = Matt 24:29-31
There is not a single spoken word by the LORD to counter/reverse/alter or change His timing, after the Tribulation,on His Coming.
God is not the author of confusion.
"Judge not lest ye be judged." We are not here to judge others and declare they are lying or following the devil or are under a curse or anything else. We are brothers in the Lord and should reflect this in our messages.
With that said, we all should agree that the rapture CANNOT POSSIBLY be both pretrib and posttrib: Paul told us of only ONE (1) rapture. Therefore, either pretrib or posttrib theory is in error. It also means that some of those who hold to these theories are in error in their thinking. We all should be asking, "what does the WORD say?"
In determining the timing of the rapture, this is not easy. It takes much study and an understanding of the New Testament. One cannot read of a gathering and insist it much be Paul's gathering. Is God not allowed to gather more than once?
Let's show love in our posts!
With that said, we all should agree that the rapture CANNOT POSSIBLY be both pretrib and posttrib: Paul told us of only ONE (1) rapture. Therefore, either pretrib or posttrib theory is in error. It also means that some of those who hold to these theories are in error in their thinking. We all should be asking, "what does the WORD say?"
In determining the timing of the rapture, this is not easy. It takes much study and an understanding of the New Testament. One cannot read of a gathering and insist it much be Paul's gathering. Is God not allowed to gather more than once?
Let's show love in our posts!
No, it does not say that. It may be how you are reading it, but it does not say what you think it does.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
This tells us that immediately following the tribulation of those days, Jesus will come. In no way does this prohibit a previous coming. It is merely a statement of fact, He will come after the tribulation. Don't read into a verse what you want it to say!
1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
IS this a coming? It tells us it is. But it also says He comes ONLY to the air. One would have to add to scripture to declare that after He stops in the air, He then comes down to the ground.
This is a coming without horses. The Revelation 19 coming is with horses.
This is a coming with an archangel. The Revelation 19 coming is with armies of angels.
This is a coming in John's timeline after the days of GT. In Paul's coming it is before wrath. It is impossible they are both speaking of one coming.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
This tells us that immediately following the tribulation of those days, Jesus will come. In no way does this prohibit a previous coming. It is merely a statement of fact, He will come after the tribulation. Don't read into a verse what you want it to say!
1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
IS this a coming? It tells us it is. But it also says He comes ONLY to the air. One would have to add to scripture to declare that after He stops in the air, He then comes down to the ground.
This is a coming without horses. The Revelation 19 coming is with horses.
This is a coming with an archangel. The Revelation 19 coming is with armies of angels.
This is a coming in John's timeline after the days of GT. In Paul's coming it is before wrath. It is impossible they are both speaking of one coming.
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You keep subverting the Word of God as satan did in the Garden and you also seek to measure yourself by yourself.
Evidence #1.) "In determining the timing of the rapture, this is not easy. It takes much study and an understanding of the New Testament. One cannot read of a gathering and insist it much be Paul's gathering. Is God not allowed to gather more than once?"
the LORD Jesus Christ determined when HE is Coming: " Immediately after the Tribulation........the Coming of the Son of Man."
Who are you to say otherwise? I said to you PROVE it with Scripture - your words and my words hold no value in this.
We both stand together, side by side, at the feet of our LORD and Savior = Jesus Christ
HE does not approve of anyone "adding to or taking away from His Words.
Please refresh your Fear of God and read this warning from the LORD: Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Evidence #1.) "In determining the timing of the rapture, this is not easy. It takes much study and an understanding of the New Testament. One cannot read of a gathering and insist it much be Paul's gathering. Is God not allowed to gather more than once?"
the LORD Jesus Christ determined when HE is Coming: " Immediately after the Tribulation........the Coming of the Son of Man."
Who are you to say otherwise? I said to you PROVE it with Scripture - your words and my words hold no value in this.
We both stand together, side by side, at the feet of our LORD and Savior = Jesus Christ
HE does not approve of anyone "adding to or taking away from His Words.
Please refresh your Fear of God and read this warning from the LORD: Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
And Paul tells us of another coming, a coming before God's wrath begins. Go and look: don''t take my word for it: Wrath starts with the DAY of His wrath at the 6th seal. This is even before the book can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments, MUCH LESS after the days of GT.
You are forming doctrine from ONE VERSE, when there are MANY end time verses that every theory must agree with. What are you going to do with Paul's statement of His coming FOR His saints? There is a verse that tells us He comes with ten thousands of His saints. That would be His Rev. 19 coming.
You are forming doctrine from ONE VERSE, when there are MANY end time verses that every theory must agree with. What are you going to do with Paul's statement of His coming FOR His saints? There is a verse that tells us He comes with ten thousands of His saints. That would be His Rev. 19 coming.
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I am not subverting anything. The problem is a lack of understanding on your part. It is silly to form doctrine from one verse of scripture.
I have agreed with you over and over: OF COURSE He is coming after the trib. But where is He before that? He is in heaven at the marriage and supper. This shows us that the saints are in heaven WITH HIM. And if we study to show ourselves approved, we can tell that they all have resurrection bodies at this time. HOW can we tell this? Very simple, by following other scriptures, such as 1 Thes. 4 that shows us the church is raised before wrath, and wrath starts before the week starts.
We must not only know scripture, we must understand it. How are YOU, going to get to heaven for the marriage?
I have agreed with you over and over: OF COURSE He is coming after the trib. But where is He before that? He is in heaven at the marriage and supper. This shows us that the saints are in heaven WITH HIM. And if we study to show ourselves approved, we can tell that they all have resurrection bodies at this time. HOW can we tell this? Very simple, by following other scriptures, such as 1 Thes. 4 that shows us the church is raised before wrath, and wrath starts before the week starts.
We must not only know scripture, we must understand it. How are YOU, going to get to heaven for the marriage?
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You are showing your lack of understanding of the book of Revelation.
Case in point: the DAY of His wrath starts at the 6th seal. That means God gets ANGRY then. But no action is taken yet.
Next, the 7th seal is opened so now the BOOK can be opened.
The book contains the entire 70th week.
So in Rev. 8 the 70th week begins. God's wrath begins with the first trumpet judgment.
Since the 70th week is INSIDE the day of the Lord, it ALL comes with His wrath.
This is proven by the vials being filled with His wrath.
The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week.
Then the man of sin is revealed and the days of GT are soon to begin.
The False prophet show up, an image and mark are created and then begins the days of GT.
When God knows the right time, He will pour out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT.
This proves that God's wrath (in the vials) happens WHILE days of GT are taking place. They are concurrent.
Finally the Beast and False prophet are rendered helpless by the vials and the days of GT end.
DAYS continue to the 1260th day. The 7th vial marks the end of the week. Jesus is nowhere to be seen yet.
The OT saints are resurrected and taken to heaven to join with the church. Together they join the marriage and supper in heaven.
The Two witnesses are resurrected along with the beheaded.
Finally Jesus gets on His white horse, and the armies of heaven follow Him - ALL on white horses.
Armageddon takes place, as well as the parable of the tares.
Next comes the sheep and goat judgment
See how easy this is if we just follow the text?
Case in point: the DAY of His wrath starts at the 6th seal. That means God gets ANGRY then. But no action is taken yet.
Next, the 7th seal is opened so now the BOOK can be opened.
The book contains the entire 70th week.
So in Rev. 8 the 70th week begins. God's wrath begins with the first trumpet judgment.
Since the 70th week is INSIDE the day of the Lord, it ALL comes with His wrath.
This is proven by the vials being filled with His wrath.
The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week.
Then the man of sin is revealed and the days of GT are soon to begin.
The False prophet show up, an image and mark are created and then begins the days of GT.
When God knows the right time, He will pour out the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT.
This proves that God's wrath (in the vials) happens WHILE days of GT are taking place. They are concurrent.
Finally the Beast and False prophet are rendered helpless by the vials and the days of GT end.
DAYS continue to the 1260th day. The 7th vial marks the end of the week. Jesus is nowhere to be seen yet.
The OT saints are resurrected and taken to heaven to join with the church. Together they join the marriage and supper in heaven.
The Two witnesses are resurrected along with the beheaded.
Finally Jesus gets on His white horse, and the armies of heaven follow Him - ALL on white horses.
Armageddon takes place, as well as the parable of the tares.
Next comes the sheep and goat judgment
See how easy this is if we just follow the text?
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I think we more or less agree. I also believe the marriage and supper are post-trib and that it includes literally the entire church: all raptured and resurrected saints.
That being said, Revelation 19 doesn't mention the rapture or a gathering. Since we know that the marriage and supper are post-trib, and they include the entire church, then we can safely conclude the rapture already happened in a previous chapter.
That being said, Revelation 19 doesn't mention the rapture or a gathering. Since we know that the marriage and supper are post-trib, and they include the entire church, then we can safely conclude the rapture already happened in a previous chapter.
Not just silly but corrupt when they say "did JESUS really say HE is Coming after the Tribulation."
Oh wait, that lie is now exposed, so you say: "this does not prevent the Lord from coming before that".
That satement you made a number of times reveals a proud heart, lack of the fear of God, and far far worse then silliness.
Oh wait, that lie is now exposed, so you say: "this does not prevent the Lord from coming before that".
That satement you made a number of times reveals a proud heart, lack of the fear of God, and far far worse then silliness.
This tells us that immediately following the tribulation of those days, Jesus will come. In no way does this prohibit a previous coming. It is merely a statement of fact, He will come after the tribulation. Don't read into a verse what you want it to say!
1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
IS this a coming? It tells us it is. But it also says He comes ONLY to the air. One would have to add to scripture to declare that after He stops in the air, He then comes down to the ground.
Man loves the methodology of 'serpent twisting ' of scripture.
God hates it, and so do i.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6
the LORD says: "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
No where in Scripture can you find the LORD or the Apostles saying there is more then one return -the Coming of Christ.
Again, to say other then the words of the LORD and the Apostles is the working of the evil one in your heart.
When you recognize this, the Lord will grant you grace to turn away from it.
Never assume that i lack understanding from the Holy Spirit on such things as His Coming and TRUTH.
To hurl insults because you cannot prove from scripture your position is clear immaturity.
The Apostles spoke the same singular Coming of the LORD in their writings - there was never a confusing statement or multiple Returns/Comings of the LORD. Always, just one - His Coming.
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who are asleep(the spirits of the dead in Christ)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first. = Revelation 20 the FIRST Resurrection
After that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
serpent twisting of scripture: "multiple returns of Christ and multiple resurrections and pre-trib rapture before the resurrection"
1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
IS this a coming? It tells us it is. But it also says He comes ONLY to the air. One would have to add to scripture to declare that after He stops in the air, He then comes down to the ground.
Man loves the methodology of 'serpent twisting ' of scripture.
God hates it, and so do i.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6
the LORD says: "But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
No where in Scripture can you find the LORD or the Apostles saying there is more then one return -the Coming of Christ.
Again, to say other then the words of the LORD and the Apostles is the working of the evil one in your heart.
When you recognize this, the Lord will grant you grace to turn away from it.
Never assume that i lack understanding from the Holy Spirit on such things as His Coming and TRUTH.
To hurl insults because you cannot prove from scripture your position is clear immaturity.
The Apostles spoke the same singular Coming of the LORD in their writings - there was never a confusing statement or multiple Returns/Comings of the LORD. Always, just one - His Coming.
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who are asleep(the spirits of the dead in Christ)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first. = Revelation 20 the FIRST Resurrection
After that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
serpent twisting of scripture: "multiple returns of Christ and multiple resurrections and pre-trib rapture before the resurrection"