How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

DavidTree · Nov 16, 2021

WHO (to what people group) is the Olivet Discourse directed to? Were Gentile Christians taken to a synagogue to be beating? NO! JEWISH Christians perhaps were taken to a synagogue. Is the 70th week of Daniel for Gentiles? NO! Daniel is clear, it is for HIS people, the Jews and by extension, all Hebrew people. This is further proven by Jesus speaking of the abomination that will divide the week. What is the purpose of the 70th week? Do you know? Daniel 12 tells us: it is God completely shattering the power of the Hebrew people and the nation of Israel, so they finally get to the place where ONLY GOD can save them. This has nothing to do with the Gentile church of today. Why then do you insist on placing the church in the 70th week?

By the way, there is a difference in reading the scriptures and understanding them. Blindness in part has been put upon the descendants of Jacob while God turned to the Gentiles. He is waiting for the fullness of the Gentiles to come in. The Jews have just had to wait (partly in blindness) for the fullness of the Gentiles. But the moment the final church age martyr will have been martyred, (God knows the number) the rapture will take place and the church age will end. "Time" will instantly then be "Day of the Lord" time. And very shortly after that, (the 6th seal starts the Day) the 7th seal starts the 70th week.

By the time verse 30 above will happen, heaven will be emptied: all who participated in the marriage and supper - both the Old and New Testament saints - will return with Christ. The only group left to gather will be all the descendants of Jacob around the world that will have survived the days of GT. God will gather them to Israel as He promised.

The lie of pre-trib escalates like a avalanche, to smother those under, it with a blanket of many lies.

Are you ready to allow the LORD to circumcise your heart from the many lies of pre-trib? Yes/No?

If you are serious, in your heart to obey the Lord and not add to His words, then i will engage you, not as an enemy but as my Brother in Christ -amen.

But if your heart is hardened, as the Jews who seek to establish their own righteousness, then we will not have fellowship under Christ.

Let me know

lamad · Nov 16, 2021

DavidTree said:

OF COURSE He is coming after the tribulation of those days: it is HIS WORD. We could say it is written in stone. It will certainly happen. But His coming as shown in Revelation 19 and Matthew 24 cannot and does not prove that He will not come 7 years previous FOR His church. Study 1 and 2 Thes. Paul is the only writer of the NT that received a revelation of the rapture. Therefore, to learn about the rapture, that should be where we turn first. Many people imagine Jesus spoke of Paul's rapture - but He did not. That theory is myth.

Paul is clear that his rapture will come before wrath. On John's timeline, do you know when wrath starts in relation to other events in Revelation? John is clear that the Day of His wrath (and therefore His wrath) will begin in chapter 6 when the 6th seal is opened. There is no wrath to be found in seals 1 through 5. Why people imagine wrath against the martyrs of the church (5th seal) amazes me.

Since the 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age, and since they were told that judgment would not start until the final martyr killed as they were - as church age martyrs - the rapture cannot possibly be anywhere before the 5th seal in Revelation. And since wrath begins at the 6th seal, John has pinpointed where Paul's rapture will take place. The truth is, the church has been waiting for the final martyr for nearly 2000 years. Soon Jesus will come, the church will be escorted to heaven, and Jesus will then open the 6th seal and the Day of the Lord will begin. Probably ten days later (the days of Awe) the 7th seal will be opened and the 70th week (for Daniel's people) will begin. The Day of the Lord spells judgment of the nations, but the time of Jacob's trouble is for THEM, not the church.

DavidTree · Nov 16, 2021

lamad said:

OF COURSE He is coming after the tribulation of those days: it is HIS WORD. We could say it is written in stone. It will certainly happen. But His coming as shown in Revelation 19 and Matthew 24 cannot and does not prove that He will not come 7 years previous FOR His church. Study 1 and 2 Thes. Paul is the only writer of the NT that received a revelation of the rapture. Therefore, to learn about the rapture, that should be where we turn first. Many people imagine Jesus spoke of Paul's rapture - but He did not. That theory is myth.

Paul is clear that his rapture will come before wrath. On John's timeline, do you know when wrath starts in relation to other events in Revelation? John is clear that the Day of His wrath (and therefore His wrath) will begin in chapter 6 when the 6th seal is opened. There is no wrath to be found in seals 1 through 5. Why people imagine wrath against the martyrs of the church (5th seal) amazes me.

Since the 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age, and since they were told that judgment would not start until the final martyr killed as they were - as church age martyrs - the rapture cannot possibly be anywhere before the 5th seal in Revelation. And since wrath begins at the 6th seal, John has pinpointed where Paul's rapture will take place. The truth is, the church has been waiting for the final martyr for nearly 2000 years. Soon Jesus will come, the church will be escorted to heaven, and Jesus will then open the 6th seal and the Day of the Lord will begin. Probably ten days later (the days of Awe) the 7th seal will be opened and the 70th week (for Daniel's people) will begin. The Day of the Lord spells judgment of the nations, but the time of Jacob's trouble is for THEM, not the church.

Please read Post # 2,821 - i must leave CC for now and will be back after 5pm EST - may the Peace of Christ be upon you

lamad · Nov 16, 2021

DavidTree said:

I could write something similar:

"The lie of post-trib escalates like a avalanche, to smother those under, it with a blanket of many lies."

Does writing such nonsense make you feel better? Truly, it solves nothing.

"Are you ready to allow the LORD to circumcise your heart from the many lies of post-trib? Yes/No?"
Just more nonsense. What we need to determine is, WHAT DOES THE WORD SAY?

It seems you have built up resentment for any theory that disagrees with yours. Why is that? We are brothers in the Lord. Our only command is to love one another.

How amazing: you read scriptures and see one thing. I read the same scriptures and see something entirely different. It seems we read scriptures differently.

Runningman · Nov 16, 2021

lamad said:

That isn't how the Bible is read though. Sometimes they didn't include all relevant details to a topic in every letter they wrote. Some details are here, some are there, and there's a lot of cross-referencing required.

I think this is ultimately a matter of different styles of hermeneutics or Bible interpretation theory.

I wasn't raised in church and my natural interpretation of the scriptures apparently leans towards the historical premillennialist side; I reject dual covenant theology and dispensationalism.

I suspect you're probably the exact opposite of me. You just won't see the post-trib rapture and I won't see the pre-trib rapture. I think our boxes effectually blind us to alternative interpretations.

GRACE_ambassador · Nov 16, 2021

walknlight said:

Precious friend, Great Question! Answer below, but, first:

To set up A Solid Foundation, According to "God's Sound Doctrine"
(fruit?) inspections of All Of God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:

God's Context of (earthly) Prophecy/Law contains "the gospel of the kingdom"
(faith PLUS works)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

God's Context Of (Heavenly) MYSTERY contains "The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
(GRACE Through faith)

With these Biblical Facts in mind, we should now ask, Can God Execute BOTH of
HIS Programs Simultaneously? Does God Offer GRACE and Execute Judgment at
the SAME Time? ie:

Today, The Body Of CHRIST, According To The Revelation Of The MYSTERY,
The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God Is "how people come to Christ," and This
Dispensation ENDS With our Pre - TOJT Great GRACE Departure To Heaven, and...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

...After our Great GRACE Departure To Heaven, God, Will Resume HIS Prophetic
Program, And, in "answer to @walknlight's Great Question," the gospel of
the kingdom will be "how people come to Christ" in Revelation, During The
Time Of JACOB's TROUBLE (TOJT).
+
Because "The Body Of Christ, has already Departed To Heaven," God Has
the resuming of "the preaching of the gospel of the everlasting kingdom"
committed to the Very Capable mouths of HIS 144,000 sealed Jews (12,000
from Each tribe), HIS TWO powerful witnesses, AND HIS angel from heaven
(Revelation 7:1-8; 11:3-12; 14:6), Correct?

More "Sound Doctrine" inspections:

God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!

Great GRACE {MYSTERY} Departure @ the 2nd coming {prophecy}?

Precious friend, Please Be Richly Encouraged In The LORD JESUS CHRIST,
and in HIS Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! Amen.

DavidTree · Nov 16, 2021

lamad said:

When we read Scripture that says "do not lie" is that clear to you?
When read Scripture that says "do not add or take away from God's words lest you be proven a liar" - is that clear to you??

Christ the LORD says: "Immediately after the Tribulation.....you will see the Son of Man Coming" - is that clear to you???

No one, not once, not ever, has come forward with scripture of the LORD saying "I am coming before the Tribulation....."

Therefore, whoever says such things reverses God's words, which satan did in the Garden and does so now with 'pre-trib rapture.'

Choose you this day whom you will serve...............God or Belial/religion

soberxp · Nov 16, 2021

Why should we say that things we don't know and don't understand must be like this? Unclear understanding can only be regarded as speculation. You can't impose this idea on others. When Jesus comes or has come is not something we can decide, just as our life span is not something we can decide

walknlight · Nov 16, 2021

Hi!

DavidTree said:

Again,
After Rev 4
Who is doing the preaching of the Gospel of Christ.......
You said "THe Bride" does that include the angels or both?

God Bless!

lamad · Nov 16, 2021

DavidTree said:

Slow down! I don't think either one of us is "lying" or trying to deceive the other. What we have here is a simple disagreement on what the bible says.

Christ the LORD says: "Immediately after the Tribulation.....you will see the Son of Man Coming" - is that clear to you??? Of course He is coming after the trib: but as I stated before, this verse in NO WAY prevents Him from coming to the air 7 years previous.

No one, not once, not ever, has come forward with scripture of the LORD saying "I am coming before the Tribulation....."
" Not one, not once, not ever" does a scripture prove this coming after the trib' is Paul's rapture. Indeed, it cannot be.

Therefore, whoever says such things reverses God's words, which satan did in the Garden and does so now with 'pre-trib rapture.'
Whoa there! Don't put yourself in jeopardy. You have proved nothing except perhaps to yourself. You must prove that the coming in Revelation 19 is the SAME coming as Paul's coming in 1 Thes. 4. It is not and cannot possibly be.

Don't be silly: I simply disagree with what you imagine scripture tells us. I think you need more study.

lamad · Nov 16, 2021

Runningman said:

One thing is certain in my mind: if the rapture is when Jesus descends as in Rev. 19, then the church will miss the marriage and supper. John places these events before Jesus descends. I refuse to rearrange Revelation to fit a theory. Rather, I form theory from Revelation as written. People have been to heaven recently and have testified of having SEEN the preparations for the marriage and supper. Some have been told that heaven is all ready to receive the saints: all preparations are finished. I believe these testimonies since they do not disagree with what is written.

Another thing I am convinced of: the 70th week is for Daniel's people, not the Gentile church of today.

lamad · Nov 16, 2021

walknlight said:

Why did you say, "after Rev. 4" That is the start of John's vision of the throne room - it happened around 95 AD or perhaps sooner. That event had very little to do with the church until after Revelation was written so people could read it. The church is still alive and well on earth at the 5th seal, which is for the martyrs of the church age. However, by the time of the 6th seal, wrath and judgment start and the church will certainly be removed before then.

Nehemiah6 · Nov 16, 2021

lamad said:

Correct. In Revelation 19 Christ comes WITH His saints and angels to earth after the Marriage of the Lamb. In 1 Thessalonians 4 Christ comes in the air FOR His saints at the Resurrection/Rapture before the Marriage of the Lamb. This is so elementary, that even a child would understand the difference.

lamad · Nov 16, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

Correct. In Revelation 19 Christ comes WITH His saints and angels to earth after the Marriage of the Lamb. In 1 Thessalonians 4 Christ comes in the air FOR His saints at the Resurrection/Rapture before the Marriage of the Lamb. This is so elementary, that even a child would understand the difference.

I agree. Well said.

Nehemiah6 · Nov 16, 2021

DavidTree said:

Since there are no errors in pre-trib, I'm sure you meant either post-trib, mid-trib, or something else. You are still unable to distinguish between the tribulations and persecutions of Christians (which has been going on since the first century), and the Tribulation and Great Tribulation, which are absolutely unique events in the future.

THE TRIBULATION
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

THE GREAT TRIBULATION
For then shall be [The] Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

lamad · Nov 16, 2021

GRACE_ambassador said:

Precious friend, Great Question! Answer below, but, first:

To set up A Solid Foundation, According to "God's Sound Doctrine"
(fruit?) inspections of All Of God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:

God's Context of (earthly) Prophecy/Law contains "the gospel of the kingdom"
(faith PLUS works)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

God's Context Of (Heavenly) MYSTERY contains "The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
(GRACE Through faith)

With these Biblical Facts in mind, we should now ask, Can God Execute BOTH of
HIS Programs Simultaneously? Does God Offer GRACE and Execute Judgment at
the SAME Time? ie:

Today, The Body Of CHRIST, According To The Revelation Of The MYSTERY,
The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God Is "how people come to Christ," and This
Dispensation ENDS With our Pre - TOJT Great GRACE Departure To Heaven, and...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

...After our Great GRACE Departure To Heaven, God, Will Resume HIS Prophetic
Program, And, in "answer to @walknlight's Great Question," the gospel of
the kingdom will be "how people come to Christ" in Revelation, During The
Time Of JACOB's TROUBLE (TOJT).
+
Because "The Body Of Christ, has already Departed To Heaven," God Has
the resuming of "the preaching of the gospel of the everlasting kingdom"
committed to the Very Capable mouths of HIS 144,000 sealed Jews (12,000
from Each tribe), HIS TWO powerful witnesses, AND HIS angel from heaven
(Revelation 7:1-8; 11:3-12; 14:6), Correct?

More "Sound Doctrine" inspections:

God's Approval/TWO Different Gospels
Distinctions In God's Two Different Programs: Prophecy vs Mystery!

Great GRACE {MYSTERY} Departure @ the 2nd coming {prophecy}?

Precious friend, Please Be Richly Encouraged In The LORD JESUS CHRIST,
and in HIS Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! Amen.

I agree, the 144,000 will begin where the church on earth ends: the great crowd seen in heaven (raptured church) is in the same chapter as the 144,000 being sealed. Both are events that God MUST see accomplished before the 70th week can start.

Then the Two Witnesses will begin near the midpoint of the week when the 144,000 are taken to heaven.

lamad · Nov 16, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

For those that care, many people call Daniel's 70th week or the time of Jacob's trouble as "the tribulation." This 7 year period of time will begin in Revelation at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment. The entire 70th week will come with God's wrath. In Revelation the 70th week - or the final 7 years - goes from Revelation 8 to Revelation 16. The trumpet judgments fill up the first half of the week, and the vials will come late in the second half of the week.

Good post, Nehemiah6.

Runningman · Nov 16, 2021

lamad said:

I hear you and in understand your perspective, but I can't accept that Revelation 19's marriage supper of the Lamb is pre-trib because I don't think God will have a marriage supper without every one of His brides present.

Even in pre-trib rapture theory, there are still tribulation saints. If the marriage supper of the Lamb occurs while there are still tribulation saints (church members) present on Earth then God didn't include them. How do you account for this?

lamad · Nov 16, 2021

Runningman said:

According to John's timeline, the marriage and supper are NOT "pretrib." God must wait for the resurrection of the Old Testament saints which will happen on the last 24 hour day of "the trib." that is why the 70th week ends in chapter 16, but the marriage and supper are in chapter 19. of course the beheaded saints will raise at this time, as will the Two Witnesses. Therefore, all saints who have died and those in Christ who will be alive at the rapture will be at the marriage. Those who survive the week will be in natural bodies on the earth for the sheep and goat judgment. All we need do is understand and follow John's timing. You asked a good question.

DavidTree · Nov 16, 2021

walknlight said:

Again - Why do you reject the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and His exact words: Matt 24
"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. "

Who is telling you these lies that the Saints are not preaching the Gospel to the end.

Is there another gospel you have turned too???

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a curse!
Galatians 1:8

How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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