The doctrine of entire sanctification.

[justbyfaith]

Absolutely, but Christians are holy, not because they never sin, but rather because of Jesus.

Romans 3:21-24
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

What does it mean that the righteousness apart from the law is attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21) that it is righteousness indeed?

Does it not mean that when this righteousness is subjected to the scrutiny of the law, that is is still found to be righteousness?

For if we bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn us in our behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23). Which means, we become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom of heaven by virtue of the fact that we bear the Spirit's fruit.

This is a practical live that is being spoken of (1 John 3:17-18); it is even the bond of perfectness (Colossians 3:14).

Holy does mean holy, but I think you believe holiness is works-based. It isn't.

Holiness is entirely based on grace; on the change that God works into the sinner's heart when He gives unto him the free gift of righteousness (Romans 5:15-17); which is normally practical in nature (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

 

[justbyfaith]

This is a practical live

*love*

 

[justbyfaith]

If they are in the light, the light will expose and and all sin that may be present.

*any and all sin*

 

[Amanuensis]

Your explanation of the doctrine of entire sanctification is one that has rescued that doctrine presented in the 1800s and which swept the country but fell out of favor. You have modified it to fit a more reasonable explanation because the original doctrine was unsupportable.

The claims of many that after spending time in prayer they exeprienced a "sanctification experience" some called it the baptism of the Holy Spirit and no longer sinned was rejected as a non biblical explanation of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Out of the effort to explore what the scriptures reveal as evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit it was soon discovered that the most common evidence was speaking in tongues not the idea that one has become sinproof.

Your explanation is not what they were teaching in the 1800s under the label "entire sanctification" and you haven't even mentioned the seeking God in extended prayer time to get the "entire sanctification experience" which they testified to with various emotional experiences.

You have actually taken the position that most did in refuting the doctrine of entire sanctification that was popular in the 1800s and early 1900s by giving your view of what sanctification really means but kept the label "entire sanctification doctrine" which is rather confusing since your view is not what the "entire sanctification doctrine" proposed.

The problem with the "entire sanctification doctrine" was that they taught that one who has had this experience no longer sinned. You are trying to apologize for them as if they did not teach that, but they surely did.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your explanation of the doctrine of entire sanctification is one that has rescued that doctrine presented in the 1800s and which swept the country but fell out of favor. You have modified it to fit a more reasonable explanation because the original doctrine was unsupportable.

The claims of many that after spending time in prayer they exeprienced a "sanctification experience" some called it the baptism of the Holy Spirit and no longer sinned was rejected as a non biblical explanation of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Out of the effort to explore what the scriptures reveal as evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit it was soon discovered that the most common evidence was speaking in tongues not the idea that one has become sinproof.

Your explanation is not what they were teaching in the 1800s under the label "entire sanctification" and you haven't even mentioned the seeking God in extended prayer time to get the "entire sanctification experience" which they testified to with various emotional experiences.

You have actually taken the position that most did in refuting the doctrine of entire sanctification that was popular in the 1800s and early 1900s by giving your view of what sanctification really means but kept the label "entire sanctification doctrine" which is rather confusing since your view is not what the "entire sanctification doctrine" proposed.

The problem with the "entire sanctification doctrine" was that they taught that one who has had this experience no longer sinned. You are trying to apologize for them as if they did not teach that, but they surely did.

I am teaching that it is possible to no longer sin; as the element of sin is rendered dead within you (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over your behaviour (Romans 6:14); since we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

 

[Charlie24]

I am teaching that it is possible to no longer sin; as the element of sin is rendered dead within you (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over your behaviour (Romans 6:14); since we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

We are dead to sin by the virtue of the Cross, what Christ there did for us! The sin nature of fallen man is not rendered dead!

This is why Paul tells us in Rom. 6:13 not to yield our members (body) as instruments unto unrighteousness. Sin is still ever present.

Paul tells us in 6:14 that "sin shall not have dominion over us," this means that sin will not dominate us, not that sin is gone.

You must remember you are still fallen man, you will not and cannot reach this sinless perfection is this life!

Be honest with yourself, have you ceased from all sin? Of course you haven't and neither has anyone else! But by faith in Christ the sin nature will not have dominion over you that you must obey it.

 

[justbyfaith]

We are dead to sin by the virtue of the Cross, what Christ there did for us! The sin nature of fallen man is not rendered dead!

This is why Paul tells us in Rom. 6:13 not to yield our members (body) as instruments unto unrighteousness. Sin is still ever present.

Paul tells us in 6:14 that "sin shall not have dominion over us," this means that sin will not dominate us, not that sin is gone.

You must remember you are still fallen man, you will not and cannot reach this sinless perfection is this life!

Be honest with yourself, have you ceased from all sin? Of course you haven't and neither has anyone else! But by faith in Christ the sin nature will not have dominion over you that you must obey it.

We are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)) and therefore it is possible to walk consistently in freedom and victory over besetting sins for an extended period of time; even for the rest of one's life (Luke 1:74-75; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17).

I will not claim that I have obtained this sanctification; however I can say that the situations where I indulge in my besetting sins are becoming farther and fewer in between.

 

[Charlie24]

We are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)) and therefore it is possible to walk consistently in freedom and victory over besetting sins for an extended period of time; even for the rest of one's life (Luke 1:74-75; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17).

I will not claim that I have obtained this sanctification; however I can say that the situations where I indulge in my besetting sins are becoming farther and fewer in between.

Yes, we can have victory over all known sin in our lives, that is sin that we have practiced in the past but no longer practice. We have obeyed the Spirit by faith, walked away from that sin, and won the victory over that sin. There can be no sin in our life that we know of!

But what about this JBF, you become angry on this forum with someone, for whatever reason. Did not Jesus say that if you are angry with your brother without cause you have committed murder? Jesus is showing us here that the righteousness of God cannot be reached by fallen mortal man. This principle of obeying the Law is used by Christ over and over again.

Jesus gave us the true meaning of the Law, it is much deeper than what meets the eye in the 10 commandments. Even knowing we have no sin in our lives (that we know of) we still sin in our thoughts and actions making us dependent on Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

You have modified it to fit a more reasonable explanation because the original doctrine was unsupportable.

I can actually present a case for what might truly be called "sinless perfection" in the Bible but because I do not believe in it I refrain from preaching it. There is that little wrench in the works of 1 John 1:8 that will get in the way if I try to preach that doctrine. The verse can be dealt with; however the reasoning is extensive and also might be judged to be heresy by the majority.

Therefore I concede 1 John 1:8 in my preaching of the doctrine of "entire sanctification" (not "sinless perfection") and take into account the plain meaning of the verse as a refutation of the idea of "sinless perfection"; however my argument is that "entire sanctification" is not the same thing as "sinless perfection" as is explained in the OP of this thread.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, we can have victory over all known sin in our lives, that is sin that we have practiced in the past but no longer practice. We have obeyed the Spirit by faith, walked away from that sin, and won the victory over that sin. There can be no sin in our life that we know of!

But what about this JBF, you become angry on this forum with someone, for whatever reason. Did not Jesus say that if you are angry with your brother without cause you have committed murder? Jesus is showing us here that the righteousness of God cannot be reached by fallen mortal man. This principle of obeying the Law is used by Christ over and over again.

Jesus gave us the true meaning of the Law, it is much deeper than what meets the eye in the 10 commandments. Even knowing we have no sin in our lives (that we know of) we still sin in our thoughts and actions making us dependent on Christ.

Becoming angry with a brother is not necessarily a sin according to the Bible (see Ephesians 4:26).

It is becoming angry without a righteous cause that would amount to murder in the heart of a man.

I find that because the love of the Lord has been shed abroad in my heart, that Jesus has also cleansed the inside of my cup and platter through the righteousness which is of God by faith.

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me (Romans 8:4).

See Psalms 10:4.

As concerning the wicked man; he is wicked because God is not in all of his thoughts.

We sometimes have to pay attention to mundane things like doing the laundry or going shopping at the grocery store. But we can ask the Lord to make certain that the thought of Jesus is always on the backburner of our thought life even when other things have to be on the frontburner. And of course it is always better to have the thought of Jesus on the frontburner...that is ideal.

So, keep Jesus on the frontburner of your thought life and when other things are overwhelming and you have to pay attention to those everyday situations, keep Jesus in your thought life by not taking Him off the stove altogether but by putting Him on "simmer" on the backburner of the stove of your thought life.

 

[Charlie24]

Becoming angry with a brother is not necessarily a sin according to the Bible (see Ephesians 4:26).

It is becoming angry without a righteous cause that would amount to murder in the heart of a man.

I find that because the love of the Lord has been shed abroad in my heart, that Jesus has also cleansed the inside of my cup and platter through the righteousness which is of God by faith.

The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me (Romans 8:4).

See Psalms 10:4.

As concerning the wicked man; he is wicked because God is not in all of his thoughts.

We sometimes have to pay attention to mundane things like doing the laundry or going shopping at the grocery store. But we can ask the Lord to make certain that the thought of Jesus is always on the backburner of our thought life even when other things have to be on the frontburner. And of course it is always better to have the thought of Jesus on the frontburner...that is ideal.

So, keep Jesus on the frontburner of your thought life and when other things are overwhelming and you have to pay attention to those everyday situations, keep Jesus in your thought life by not taking Him off the stove altogether but by putting Him on "simmer" on the backburner of the stove of your thought life.

And neither is God in all of your thoughts! The next time you commit a sin, that won't take long either, ask yourself, was God in my thoughts when I did that? No He wasn't, because God can't always be in your thoughts.

He can always be in your heart! But decisions are made with the mind, and God is not always on our minds.

If you can keep God on your mind 24/7 without end, you cannot be human!

 

[Charlie24]

I can actually present a case for what might truly be called "sinless perfection" in the Bible but because I do not believe in it I refrain from preaching it. There is that little wrench in the works of 1 John 1:8 that will get in the way if I try to preach that doctrine. The verse can be dealt with; however the reasoning is extensive and also might be judged to be heresy by the majority.

Therefore I concede 1 John 1:8 in my preaching of the doctrine of "entire sanctification" (not "sinless perfection") and take into account the plain meaning of the verse as a refutation of the idea of "sinless perfection"; however my argument is that "entire sanctification" is not the same thing as "sinless perfection" as is explained in the OP of this thread.

We have already been over the levels of sanctification. Those levels combined lead to "entire sanctification" which is achieved at the resurrection.

Phil 1:13-14

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Paul is telling us here that when receive salvation through the hearing of the Gospel, we are given a down-payment on that salvation by being sealed with the Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Our salvation is not complete, meaning our sanctification is not complete until "the redemption of the purchased possessions."

This means the resurrection! We are not complete, we are not sinless, we are fallen man until the resurrection that completes us in every way that we are now perfect and sinless.

 

[justbyfaith]

And neither is God in all of your thoughts! The next time you commit a sin, that won't take long either, ask yourself, was God in my thoughts when I did that? No He wasn't, because God can't always be in your thoughts.

He can always be in your heart! But decisions are made with the mind, and God is not always on our minds.

If you can keep God on your mind 24/7 without end, you cannot be human!

What is not possible with man is possible with God as an answer to prayer.

He keeps the thought of Him simmering in the back of my mind; even when I am sleeping (for I pray every night that He will download fresh downloads into my mind as I sleep) and when I am doing the mundane things of life (for in the doing of them I "practice the presence of God"...see the book of the same name

 

[justbyfaith]

We have already been over the levels of sanctification. Those levels combined lead to "entire sanctification" which is achieved at the resurrection.

Phil 1:13-14

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

Paul is telling us here that when receive salvation through the hearing of the Gospel, we are given a down-payment on that salvation by being sealed with the Holy Spirit, the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Our salvation is not complete, meaning our sanctification is not complete until "the redemption of the purchased possessions."

This means the resurrection! We are not complete, we are not sinless, we are fallen man until the resurrection that completes us in every way that we are now perfect and sinless.

We do not become sinless (1 John 1:8) but we can become perfect (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

I have already explained to you the diffference a few times; i think even within the context of this very thread.

I would point out that when we place our hope in Jesus' return; that when we see Him we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is; that we purify ourselves even as He is pure (1 John 3:2-3).

 

[Charlie24]

We do not become sinless (1 John 1:8) but we can become perfect (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

I have already explained to you the diffference a few times; i think even within the context of this very thread.

I would point out that when we place our hope in Jesus' return; that when we see Him we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is; that we purify ourselves even as He is pure (1 John 3:2-3).

1 john 3:2-3 is speaking of Jesus coming at the resurrection when we will see Him. This is when we will receive our glorified bodies and be perfect as He is perfect. This is not saying we reach perfection is this life!

You are also taking out of context Heb. 10:14, it does not teach perfection of any kind in this life!

I don't know who taught you this, or how you came to this conclusion, it is not biblical!

 

[Amanuensis]

I can actually present a case for what might truly be called "sinless perfection" in the Bible but because I do not believe in it I refrain from preaching it. There is that little wrench in the works of 1 John 1:8 that will get in the way if I try to preach that doctrine. The verse can be dealt with; however the reasoning is extensive and also might be judged to be heresy by the majority.

Therefore I concede 1 John 1:8 in my preaching of the doctrine of "entire sanctification" (not "sinless perfection") and take into account the plain meaning of the verse as a refutation of the idea of "sinless perfection"; however my argument is that "entire sanctification" is not the same thing as "sinless perfection" as is explained in the OP of this thread.

Fair enough.

What is your opinion about seeking an experience at the "altar" of the Holy Spirit sanctifying one completely. Having an experience whereby you have been changed and made more sanctified than you were before you began the seeking process in prayer on your knees?

It is not a trick question, I myself believe there are benefits in this and those that did it, did indeed have changes in their lives that they attributed to this experience and so the movement spread as a result. Have you read about these experiences during the Weslyian Revival movements and the Holiness movements? This was just prior to the Pentecostal movement and before the Asuza Street event.

 

[Amanuensis]

I am teaching that it is possible to no longer sin; as the element of sin is rendered dead within you (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over your behaviour (Romans 6:14); since we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

Yes, I think I agree with what you are communicating. I am fully persuaded through sound hermeneutics that Paul was describing his life as a Pharisee in Rom 7, who had an intense desire and interest in doing God's will but discovered a law in his members that made him prone to sin, and Paul is telling his readers that through the regeneration of the Spirit and through the Faith life of obeying the promptings of the Spirit he now finds the power through the Spirit to resist those things he once constantly fell too.

We do not have to sin. To adopt any concept that we HAVE to sin is setting up an excuse to fail the test of resisting temptation. By submitting to God as believers in Christ filled with the Spirit we can receive grace to escape any temptation that satan brings our way. We can be successful. And if we are not, we can pass the next test successfully even if we failed one previously and we can become strong in any area that we once struggled with.

No one can claim a salvation that teaches they do not have to say NO to ungodliness in this present world. The True Grace of God teaches us to say NO. And to overcome. Only overcomers will inherit the rewards promised to the saints.

Holiness is required. We do not earn our salvation but our salvation is evident by the changed life it produces. One that loves righteousness and hates iniquity, and as a result the Spirit is poured out upon us to give us the POWER to do God's will and be successful. Our walk is a victorious and overcoming walk and we tread on sin. Hallelujah!!!

 

[justbyfaith]

1 john 3:2-3 is speaking of Jesus coming at the resurrection when we will see Him. This is when we will receive our glorified bodies and be perfect as He is perfect. This is not saying we reach perfection is this life!

You are also taking out of context Heb. 10:14, it does not teach perfection of any kind in this life!

I don't know who taught you this, or how you came to this conclusion, it is not biblical!

I'm sorry to tell you this but it is biblical...very clearly biblical.

In order to deny it you have to twist the scriptures to say what they don't really say, according to carnally-minded thinking.

It is done by many, in order to justify a lifestyle of sinning in their own lives.

That is the motivation.

The biblical statement is that if we have this hope in Him, we purify ourselves even as He is pure. (1 John 3:2-3).

How pure is Jesus Christ? I want to ask you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Fair enough.

What is your opinion about seeking an experience at the "altar" of the Holy Spirit sanctifying one completely. Having an experience whereby you have been changed and made more sanctified than you were before you began the seeking process in prayer on your knees?

It is not a trick question, I myself believe there are benefits in this and those that did it, did indeed have changes in their lives that they attributed to this experience and so the movement spread as a result. Have you read about these experiences during the Weslyian Revival movements and the Holiness movements? This was just prior to the Pentecostal movement and before the Asuza Street event.

Yes, it is written in Matthew 7:7-8 that if we ask, seek, and knock, we will receive, we will find, and the door will be opened.

The experiences that these people had were valid.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm sorry to tell you this but it is biblical...very clearly biblical.

In order to deny it you have to twist the scriptures to say what they don't really say, according to carnally-minded thinking.

It is done by many, in order to justify a lifestyle of sinning in their own lives.

That is the motivation.

The biblical statement is that if we have this hope in Him, we purify ourselves even as He is pure. (1 John 3:2-3).

How pure is Jesus Christ? I want to ask you.

In vs. 3 the hope we have in Him is the resurrection, that is when we "purify ourselves even as He is pure.

It's at the resurrection, JBF, NOT in this life.

John tells us in vs.2 of His appearing, and this hope in Him in vs. 3. The resurrection where we are made perfect!

You are not understanding this, JBF!