The doctrine of entire sanctification.

[Charlie24]

I don't know if I said this (because I have not looked at this thread for a while and felt led to post it); but I wanted to post the following scripture.

Rom 8:12 (kjv), Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Rom 8:12 (NLT), Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.

We don't have to obey the flesh; therefore we can walk in consistent victory and freedom concerning besetting sins for an extended period of time; even for the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17).

So you agree that we can have victory over sin, and even have no known sin in our lives. BUT we will never reach sinless perfection is this life?

 

[justbyfaith]

So you agree that we can have victory over sin, and even have no known sin in our lives. BUT we will never reach sinless perfection is this life?

Yes, I would agree with that; because we do not become "sinless" (1 John 1:8).

While we can become "perfect" (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

In that sin is rendered dead within us (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over what we do (Romans 6:14). For we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12).

And therefore we can walk in consistent victory over the flesh for an extended period of time; even for the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17).

Also, I believe in what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 4:3-4.

1 John 1:8 is qualified by that verse and Job 9:21, John 9:41, and Isaiah 42:19.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, I would agree with that; because we do not become "sinless" (1 John 1:8).

While we can become "perfect" (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

In that sin is rendered dead within us (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over what we do (Romans 6:14). For we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12).

And therefore we can walk in consistent victory over the flesh for an extended period of time; even for the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17).

Also, I believe in what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 4:3-4.

1 John 1:8 is qualified by that verse and Job 9:21, John 9:41, and Isaiah 42:19.

If you can become perfect in this life, that would have to include being sinless!

We are seen as perfect by God through faith in Christ,

but in reality we are not perfect, and will not be perfect until the mortal puts on the immortal at the resurrection.

 

[justbyfaith]

If you can become perfect in this life, that would have to include being sinless!

We are seen as perfect by God through faith in Christ,

but in reality we are not perfect, and will not be perfect until the mortal puts on the immortal at the resurrection.

The perfection that I am talking about has to do with your practical walk.

While the element of sin is not eradicated from your body, you become able to live a perfect life as Jesus lives in you and through you.

Because sin is rendered dead within you (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over your nehaviour (Romans 6:14). Because you are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)) and therefore you become able to concistently live a life that is set free from the power of the flesh.

So your practical walk will be perfect, free from committing sins.

While the element of sin has not been eradicated (you still have sin dwelling in your mortal flesh), it has no say over your behaviour because it has been crucified, rendered dead (again, Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8).

 

[presidente]

I see in scripture that Christians have grace to overcome sin. The idea that it comes at one point in time ___after___ salvation... I don't see that in scripture. Paul told the Corinthians, Now ye are washed; now ye are sanctified; now ye are justified.... He did not put justification before sanctification.

 

[justbyfaith]

I see in scripture that Christians have grace to overcome sin. The idea that it comes at one point in time ___after___ salvation... I don't see that in scripture. Paul told the Corinthians, Now ye are washed; now ye are sanctified; now ye are justified.... He did not put justification before sanctification.

We are normally sanctified as a process in our Christian life.

When that process is completed, we are "sanctified wholly" (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24) as a "second benefit" (2 Corinthians 1:15).

 

[Charlie24]

The perfection that I am talking about has to do with your practical walk.

While the element of sin is not eradicated from your body, you become able to live a perfect life as Jesus lives in you and through you.

Because sin is rendered dead within you (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over your nehaviour (Romans 6:14). Because you are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)) and therefore you become able to concistently live a life that is set free from the power of the flesh.

So your practical walk will be perfect, free from committing sins.

While the element of sin has not been eradicated (you still have sin dwelling in your mortal flesh), it has no say over your behaviour because it has been crucified, rendered dead (again, Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8).

We have discussed this a few times here and I think on other sites as well. No doubt we disagree on this.

You say you can cease sinning in this life, I say you can't! No need to argue it any further, nothing will come of it.

 

[justbyfaith]

We have discussed this a few times here and I think on other sites as well. No doubt we disagree on this.

You say you can cease sinning in this life, I say you can't! No need to argue it any further, nothing will come of it.

The only thing that I will say to this is that I can because I have.

I think that this information does in fact have the capacity to convince you of the truth.

Jesus has set me free from a besetting sin that held me captive for quite some time.

And the means of emancipation was indeed the understanding that I am not obligated to obey the flesh and that I therefore am capable, in the Spirit, to walk in freedom and victory for an extended time; even for the rest of my life (Luke 1:74-75; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17).

Jesus is also able to set you free from the sin that hoolds you captive, @Charlie24, on the bassis of His promises.

As soon as you see it in the word that you can, in the power of the Spirit, walk in consistent freedom and victory, I believe that the Lord will give you victory as you pray according to those promises.

 

[justbyfaith]

One of the things that prevented me for a time, from receiving my victory, was the fact that I knew of no other sin in my life and the doctrine that you cannot be perfected stopped me from receiving the victory over this last sin that was besetting me. Because I considered that if God set me free from it, I would be perfected. But if there is no perfection in this life, then it would have been impossible for God to set me free from this last besetting sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is something in old-time religion called absolute surrender.

The old hymn "I surrender all" defines it quite nicely.

If we surrender all to Jesus, then there is nothing that we are holding back from Him...

No sins that we are reserving the right to commit when nobody else is looking.

 

[Charlie24]

The only thing that I will say to this is that I can because I have.

I think that this information does in fact have the capacity to convince you of the truth.

Jesus has set me free from a besetting sin that held me captive for quite some time.

And the means of emancipation was indeed the understanding that I am not obligated to obey the flesh and that I therefore am capable, in the Spirit, to walk in freedom and victory for an extended time; even for the rest of my life (Luke 1:74-75; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17).

Jesus is also able to set you free from the sin that hoolds you captive, @Charlie24, on the bassis of His promises.

As soon as you see it in the word that you can, in the power of the Spirit, walk in consistent freedom and victory, I believe that the Lord will give you victory as you pray according to those promises.

There is a huge difference in having victory over sin in your life, sin that is practiced over and over again, and ceasing to sin altogether.

I've told you before that having no known sin in ones life is definitely possible, but what you have related to me is ceasing from sin altogether. That is not possible for fallen man! Now you can argue that all you wish but you will still be deceived.

As far as my smoking, that is not a victory for me yet! It for sure is not God's fault, the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Charlie is definitely weak in that sin and is slow to seek victory, just being honest.

 

[justbyfaith]

If someone has no known sin and is walking in the light, then the light is not revealing any sin to that person.

It is only in the context of darkness that someone, having no known sin, might have actual sin in their life.

If they are in the light, the light will expose and and all sin that may be present.

 

[Runningman]

The term "sinless perfection" has been used to describe entire sanctification in order to produce a straw man that is easily toppled by 1 John 1:8.

While the doctrine itself, does not purport that sin is eradicated from us, so that we might be without sin; but rather that sin, which indwells us as believers, can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour.

Thus the following verses,

1Jo 1:8, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8, He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

are not in contradiction to each other as they are taken literally; for they are also found within the immediate context of each other.

Here are a few other verses that show that entire sanctification is a viable doctrine in holy scripture.

1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24, Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
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1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1Jo 3:3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Jo 2:6, He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
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1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
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Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

1Jo 2:10, He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

These verses declare that the believer can indeed walk in consistent victory over sin in absolute freedom for an extended period of time.

Thus the heresy of "the inevitability of sin" is here refuted; and for those who desire it, the teaching that we can indeed be sanctified wholly will bring us to victory.

Sin is inevitable and that's Biblical.

1 John 1:8
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

There is not a point where someone should say "I have no sin."

And, this is also good news to all those who have come to the same place in their hearts and minds that Paul spoke of in Romans 7:24.

Rom 7:24, O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

For in Romans 7:14-21, Paul is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION; identifying himself as carnal in order to define carnality for his readers. He here becomes as weak in order to gain the weak (1 Corinthians 9:22).

In all reality the context bears out that in Romans 7:14-25 Paul is identifying the law of sin and death; and in Romans 8:2 he declares his victory over the law of sin and death.

If Paul were actually carnal when he wrote Romans 7:14-25, then he would not have been penning actual holy scripture.

I don't believe Paul was using the literary tactic of identification. While that is an effective proselytization tool, the implication is that Paul sinned by lying if he was not being literal. We are not allowed to use deception in order to achieve the greater good for God's kingdom.

Paul did not sin for the greater good and did not use lesser evils to overcome greater evils. Paul actually struggled with sin and he confessed that in Romans 7.

Romans 6:1-2
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

2Pe 1:20, Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21, For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Therefore in order for Paul to have been penning holy scripture, he had to be holy at the time.

I agree. Did you know the "holy" does not mean perfect? It literally just a way of saying someone is set apart by God for His purposes. All people in history are sinners (for all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory) this means that all of the people God has available at His disposal are sinners of varying degrees.

I conclude that he was indeed using a literary tactic; in which he became as weak in order to win those who are weak (1 Corinthians 9:22).

His point?

That if anyone is truly born again and yet living a Romans 7:14-25 lifestyle, they will be discontented with such a lifestyle of sinning.

I believe Paul lived a Romans 7:14-25 lifestyle. If he wasn't being honest then he lied. I don't believe Paul was a liar, therefore he was being honest. This is the necessary interpretation or Romans 7:14-25.

Finally, the scriptures that I have given are divine promises; and in Romans 4:20-22 we find that righteousness is imputed to the one who believes in such divine promises that they will be accomplished in his or her life.

Rom 4:20, He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21, And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22, And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23, Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24, But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Amen.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sin is inevitable and that's Biblical.

1 John 1:8
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

There is not a point where someone should say "I have no sin."

Notice it does not say that "if we say that we do no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

If it said that, it would be in contradiction to 1 John 3:5-9, in the immediate context of the epistle.

It says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us".

It is speaking of indwelling sin as an element within us.

This element can be crucified, rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14). We are in no way obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

This means that it is not biblical that sin, as a practice in our lives, is inevitable.

While it is a biblical statement to say that we will continue to have the element of sin dwelling on the inside of us for the rest of our lives.

However it can be crucified, rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8).

I don't believe Paul was using the literary tactic of identification. While that is an effective proselytization tool, the implication is that Paul sinned by lying if he was not being literal.

Except that Paul made it clear that he became as weak in order to win the weak; which indicates that in the whole of what he wrote as scripture, he was not lying.

Paul actually struggled with sin and he confessed that in Romans 7.

No; for Romans 7:14-25 identifies the law of sin and death (especially verse 21); and in Romans 8:2 he tells us that he personall has been set free from the law of sin and death.

So, again, in the whole of what he was saying, it was not a lie for him to be utilizing the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION.

I agree. Did you know the "holy" does not mean perfect? It literally just a way of saying someone is set apart by God for His purposes. All people in history are sinners (for all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory) this means that all of the people God has available at His disposal are sinners of varying degrees.

Holy means "holy". Do you understand that the word "holy" does not only mean to be "set apart" but that it means to be "set apart from sin"?

Too many people fall for the teaching today that holy does not mean holy. This is something that was prophesied in 2 Timothy 4:3, btw. Also, in Jude 1:3-4.

I believe Paul lived a Romans 7:14-25 lifestyle. If he wasn't being honest then he lied. I don't believe Paul was a liar, therefore he was being honest. This is the necessary interpretation or Romans 7:14-25.

Again, Romans 7:14-25 is an identification of the law of sin and death; which, effectually, is that "when I would do good, evil is present there with me" (verse 21).

And again, Paul succinctly told us (Romans 8:2) that the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus had set him free from the law of sin and death.

 

[presidente]

We are normally sanctified as a process in our Christian life.

When that process is completed, we are "sanctified wholly" (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24) as a "second benefit" (2 Corinthians 1:15).

How does II Corinthians have anything to do with a one-time experience of 'zap' sanctification? The other verse does not present it that way either.

 

[justbyfaith]

How does II Corinthians have anything to do with a one-time experience of 'zap' sanctification? The other verse does not present it that way either.

Being sanctified wholly happens when the process of progressive sanctification is completed.

 

[Gideon300]

@Gideon300,

concerning your signature,

The fruit of the Spirit is, among other things, goodness (Galatians 5:22-23).

Barnabas was a good man, full of the Holy Ghost and of faith (Acts 11:22-24)

I will go with quotes from scripture rather than a quote form GK Chesterton.

GK Chesterton was correct. It is a perfectly biblical statement. Tell me what is wrong with his statement? Oh, you don't like the bad/good thing. One of the great errors of Christians in general is the emphasis on good v bad. Every single person ever born lives or lived by that principle. Lord Jesus declared that He came that we might have abundant Life. That life is spiritual life. Without being alive spiritually, the most noble and upright person is rejected by God.

We do not need better rules or higher standards. We need the ability to live up to God's standard. There is only one way that is possible. That is to be born again, which means to be made alive, and to live by the motivation and power of the life of Christ within.

Greek has three words for life. The life that Lord Jesus speaks of is "Zoe". It's the uncreated life of God. Lord Jesus does not only give Life, He is the Life (John 14:6). People say that they are saved by grace. True. We are also saved (as in delivered) by the life of Christ (Romans 5:10). I'm not a fan of Chesterton's theology in general - way too Catholic for me - but he nailed it with the statement that I've quoted.

The emphasis in the New Testament is on life. Unless you are alive in Christ first, nothing else matters. If you are alive in Christ, then everything else follows - if you live in the light of what Lord Jesus has done for us. Most Christians have yet to see this truth, which is why the Christian life is so hard for them. It's not hard - it's impossible - for us. When Lord Jesus does the living, it becomes easy. That's what Galatians 2:20 is about.

 

[justbyfaith]

I would only say that GK's statement implies that alive people will not necessarily be good. I would contend with that implication, by saying that the fruit of the Spirit is, among other things, goodness (Galatians 5:22-23); and that therefore, if someone is truly alive from being dead, they will be good when they were previously bad. So the first part of the statement is unequivocally false. While Jesus did come to make dead people alive, in doing so He has made bad people good.

 

[Runningman]

Notice it does not say that "if we say that we do no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

If it said that, it would be in contradiction to 1 John 3:5-9, in the immediate context of the epistle.

It says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us".

It is speaking of indwelling sin as an element within us.

This element can be crucified, rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14). We are in no way obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

This means that it is not biblical that sin, as a practice in our lives, is inevitable.

Maybe you have a general idea of what sin is, but you seem to be under the impression that people can obtain a state of sinless perfection. People sin often and regularly even when they don't realize it.

Even Paul admitted he is not perfect:

Philippians 3:12
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

The only way Paul's confession of not being perfect makes sense is if he continues to sin occasionally. Romans 7:14-25 confirms what Paul said in Philippians 3:12, which is that he's a human who is susceptible to the same struggles as the rest of us and occasionally fails.

While it is a biblical statement to say that we will continue to have the element of sin dwelling on the inside of us for the rest of our lives.

However it can be crucified, rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8).

Except in Philippians 3:12, Paul admits he isn't perfect. So your definition of crucifying the flesh and/or rendering the flesh dead isn't compatible with Paul's stated lifestyle. That most likely means your interpretation isn't correct or there wouldn't be any contradictions in your narrative.

Crucifying the flesh isn't something that just happens. Having received a new born again Spirit we now have a spirit that seeks to so God's good pleasure, but it's a choice.

Philippians 2:13
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 Corinthians 9:27

27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Except that Paul made it clear that he became as weak in order to win the weak; which indicates that in the whole of what he wrote as scripture, he was not lying.

Fundamentally, any form of manipulation is a kind of deception and that's like lying.

I'm aware of what Paul said in 1 Cor. 9:19-23, but he didn't use literary tactics to fool people into thinking he can be a trusted member of their incrowd in order to persuade them to accept the gospel of Christ. If that's the case then he used manipulation and lying.

When Paul spoke of his struggles with sin in Romans 7:14-25, the only way it makes sense is if he was being bluntly honest about his real and tangible struggles.

Holy means "holy". Do you understand that the word "holy" does not only mean to be "set apart" but that it means to be "set apart from sin"?

Absolutely, but Christians are holy, not because they never sin, but rather because of Jesus.

Romans 3:21-24
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Too many people fall for the teaching today that holy does not mean holy. This is something that was prophesied in 2 Timothy 4:3, btw. Also, in Jude 1:3-4.

Holy does mean holy, but I think you believe holiness is works-based. It isn't.

 

[justbyfaith]

You have taken Philippians 3:12 out of context.

Here,

Phl 3:12, Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:13, Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Phl 3:14, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:15, Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

I hope that you can see that in the immediate context, Paul provides for the understanding that there are those who are listening or reading who have in fact been perfected by Christ.

He is saying that those who have been made perfect will have the attitude that they themselves have room to grow in their Christian walk.

But that there are those who are perfect is evident in the passage.

Also, in the following verses:

Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), 1 John 3:9 (kjv);

1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6;

1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17;

Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10.