What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

Laura798 · Nov 4, 2021

You say: The lake of fire is a 'spiritual place'--where is that found in scripture?

Pilgrimshoppe, please take time to carefully read scripture for yourself--it is a bodily resurrection--the soul and spirit cannot exist without a BODY. It says we (all peoples) will RISE. Rise from where? THE GRAVE. How do they stand before the Judgment Seat? With their physical body! Which will instantaneously be annihilated by the "breath of His mouth and the glory of His coming." Because NO MORTAL can see God and live! The fire is merely a symbol of complete and total annihilation--they "will be as if they never were."

Only one group receives eternal life and that is the Christian--only pagans and Roman Catholics believe man is an immortal soul.

The lie of Satan carries on into the church--"You shall not surely die." But God says IN the day you eat of it--YOU SHALL SURELY DIE. They and all of humanity received a death sentence at that very moment. Not the physical death, which is a comma in the light of eternity but the second death/eternal punishment, which there is no coming back from. EVER.

Pilgrimshope · Nov 4, 2021

Magenta said:

yeah I’m not sure you are hearing this part all of us must die I agree we all have sin so we all have to die

BUT this changes that after everyone has died

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a resurrection of damnation as well as life. Everyone has to die because of the law ( except the last generation of Christians who will be charged ) but I agree all will die once then they will all be resurrected both the good and the evil people will face judgement not of their body but of thier everlasting soul renewed in Christ all the world is going to be raised up and judged

the second death is a place designed to punish Satan and his angels forever and also those who follow him they are like we are with Christ Christians will be saved and satans children will partake in his eternal kingdom

the ot speaks from solomons wisdom about death , Christs is greater and revealed from an eternal perspective .

As far as the wicked they will experience this

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:41-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

same as Matthew 25

“Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

…Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:34, 41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

everlasting punishment ? Weeping and gnashing of teeth ? Another common phrase of this place

“Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:44‬ ‭

there’s actually a lot about eternal punishment for the wicked no rest ever for thier souls . But often discussions aren’t very open for consideration and this seems to be one of those

to me just my own view it’s plain that there’s an afterlife for both good and evil people one spent with Jesus the other with Satan and his angels and those who follow him on earth but again that’s just what I personally read and it seems pretty plain

we surely all have to die because of the ot but we will certainly be raised up to life because of the New Testament

The second death in my view is an eternal separation from God and all things good but spirit doesn’t die just like the devil and his angels will be there forever so will all the souls who choose the evil

Pilgrimshope · Nov 4, 2021

Laura798 said:

um yeah the devil
And his angels are spirits

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems a spiritual place of punishment doesn’t it ? Or is the devil also flesh and aged also flesh ? Pretty safe to say if it’s a place to punish angels

“But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

wouldnt it have to be a spiritual place to
Punish spirits ? Seems so to me it seems plain

also you are saying there we all have to die I agree

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

judgement happens after we die so obviously man has two parts right ? The body dies bekng made of the earth but the spirit ?

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so you have mans body which we live on earth in and then you have mans spirit who can endures after the body dies for jidgement

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If wicked people were just going to cease to exist what punishment is on that for their evil deeds ? No they have to answer for what they do on earth good or bad and thier spirit is judged by what they did in the body

I am definately considering your posts I don’t think you are considering mine but Thy at happens a lot people get convinced and then discussion is hard either way

heaven is a spiritual place for these bodies

“It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body,

and there is a spiritual body.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When people are raised up it’s going to be thier spiritual bodies not mortal
Ones

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 4, 2021

Magenta said:

The word in 1Cor15:26 is G2673 - meaning, "rendered inoperative , rendered useless, annulled" - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-26.htm

(same word used in Rom6:6 [not referring to "OUR [physical] bodies"], as was pointed out pages ago).

And yes... I keep pointing that verse out also (which you reference above):

Post #698 for example - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4685278

ewq1938 · Nov 4, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

One of the most misunderstood and misused verses in the bible. It doesn't say the person dieth not. It says their worm dieth not. It says the fire will never die out/be quenched. Not a single word about the person not dying. If you want to claim eternal torture for worms, go ahead. This doesn't support eternal torture for unsaved people.

This is what happens to them:

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .

Being destroyed means they are Annihilated.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Perishing and being burned and being consumed into smoke means they are Annihilated.

Magenta · Nov 4, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

yeah I’m not sure you are hearing this part all of us must die I agree we all have sin so we all have to die

BUT this changes that after everyone has died

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a resurrection of damnation as well as life. Everyone has to die because of the law ( except the last generation of Christians who will be charged ) but I agree all will die once then they will all be resurrected both the good and the evil people will face judgement not of their body but of thier everlasting soul renewed in Christ all the world is going to be raised up and judged

the second death is a place designed to punish Satan and his angels forever and also those who follow him they are like we are with Christ Christians will be saved and satans children will partake in his eternal kingdom

the ot speaks from solomons wisdom about death , Christs is greater and revealed from an eternal perspective .

As far as the wicked they will experience this

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:41-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

same as Matthew 25

“Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

…Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:

but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:34, 41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

everlasting punishment ? Weeping and gnashing of teeth ? Another common phrase of this place

“Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:44‬ ‭

there’s actually a lot about eternal punishment for the wicked no rest ever for thier souls . But often discussions aren’t very open for consideration and this seems to be one of those

to me just my own view it’s plain that there’s an afterlife for both good and evil people one spent with Jesus the other with Satan and his angels and those who follow him on earth but again that’s just what I personally read and it seems pretty plain

we surely all have to die because of the ot but we will certainly be raised up to life because of the New Testament

The second death in my view is an eternal separation from God and all things good but spirit doesn’t die just like the devil and his angels will be there forever so will all the souls who choose the evil

The spirit of man that has not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God is already dead.

People say this but then turn around and say the spirit cannot die.

Whereas Scripture affirms that God alone is immortal.

The gospel message is largely: life in Christ alone, WHo gave His blood as a ransom for those who would believe.

Those outside of Christ are dead.

To believe He will keep them around forever after, following “I am making everything new!” seems
more than a tad overkill. To fall into the hands of the living God is a terrifying thing. Weeping and
gnashing of teeth seems an understatement for those awaiting the execution of eternal death.

Pilgrimshope · Nov 4, 2021

Magenta said:

2 Peter 2 gives Sodom and Gomorrah as a pattern of the destruction to come upon the un-Godly.

4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight; 6 if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly; 7 and if He rescued Lot, a righteous man distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

Sodom and Gomorrah, said to burn forever, are no longer burning. They were destroyed to the uttermost.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but forever is another one of those words (like those that were mistranslated into "hell") that has been mistranslated from the original languages, and often simply means a span or duration of time until God's purpose is accomplished. This is not to be confused with God's Self-existent eternality.

"Forever"

so you have no response to the question I posed ? What do those verses in revelation say ? I’ve been told I’m ignoring scripture but it doesn’t seem
Like it how would you interpret those verses all in context there ?

Pilgrimshope · Nov 4, 2021

ewq1938 said:

One of the most misunderstood and misused verses in the bible. It doesn't say the person dieth not. It says their worm dieth not. It says the fire will never die out/be quenched. Not a single word about the person not dying. If you want to claim eternal torture for worms, go ahead. This doesn't support eternal torture for unsaved people.

This is what happens to them:

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell .

Being destroyed means they are Annihilated.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Perishing and being burned and being consumed into smoke means they are Annihilated.

Yeah like I said I don’t really see any agreement with your interpretations you seem to already have it figured out

Pilgrimshope · Nov 4, 2021

Magenta said:

because it’s our last moment on earth

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 4, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Psalm 37:20 refers to "from the time they existed on the earth" (i.e. they go down into "death" and "hell/hades" etc...)

This isn't referring to the "GWTj" point... right??

Verse 21, "...but the righteous showeth mercy, and giveth." That's while they are still existing on the earth, right?? (meaning, while "the earth" STILL EXISTS... not when Rev20:11 is referring to, right??)

ewq1938 · Nov 4, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

No, that is a different word not found in that verse.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Death is:

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
than'-at-os
From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): - X deadly, (be . . .) death.
Total KJV occurrences: 119

You are again switching words and definitions around to change meaning of a verse. This why everything TDW posts needs to be double checked.

Even G2673's definition isn't being fully given:

G2673
καταργέω
katargeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
1b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
2a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
2b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
2c) to terminate all intercourse with one
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G691
Citing in TDNT: 1:452, 76

Pilgrimshope · Nov 4, 2021

Laura798 said:

the new creation coming will have this element

“For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭66:22-24‬ ‭

that’s the lake of fire before Gods throne is why people will look upon those who transgressed

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

same place just different details from different times of revelation if they never have rest doesn’t that sort of say something ?

ewq1938 · Nov 4, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Of course it's about the GWTJ (and LOF). That's where the unsaved will burn up and be consumed into smoke.

Magenta · Nov 4, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

Jesus said we (believers) would never die. And let the dead bury the dead. Obviously people in the grave are not burying people in graves. So there are multiple layers and meanings to that one word alone. We are all born into a waking death by Adam, and need to be born again of the Spirit of God to attain to life ever after. We all pass out of this life and this is called the first death, though Jesus said we would never die. Then there is the resurrection of all, yes, some to everlasting life, and some to eternal damnation, via the second death, which there is no reason to believe is anything like the first waking death or the first physical death. Going by what Scripture says in a multiplicity of way it is destruction to the uttermost. God does everything for His glory. Expecting God to do what He would find abhorrent were we to do the same thing? Um, no. God is merciful, loving, and just. Mercy and justice put misery out of existence, and that is love.

Those without the Living Spirit of God have their names blotted out of the book of life.

Laura798 · Nov 4, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

you said: "so you have mans body which we live on earth in and then you have mans spirit who can endures after the body dies for jidgement"

this is FALSE. Only God is immortal. only believers receive the gift of immortality. Again only Roman Catholic and pagans believe man has an immortal soul.

you said: "um yeah the devil And his angels are spirits. "

but that does not answer what you said in your prior post about the lake of fire being a SPIRITUAL place. Again, please support that statement with scripture.

Additionally my point I've made in other posts--angels, death, and hell are thrown into the lake of fire--these ALL are IMMATERIAL, therefore cannot burn. Again based on this, the lake of fire is clearly a symbol of DESTRUCTION.

Furthermore, common sense dictates that without a physical body, one cannot suffer torment.

Pilgrimshope · Nov 4, 2021

Magenta said:

it does ? Doesn’t it originate here actually in the beginning of the doctrine referenced in revelation 14

“For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭66:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems as if it’s a direct reference to that which is where this comes from

“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:10‬ ‭

I’d say it’s a reference to thier soul
Never dying and the eternal fires never being quenched

ewq1938 · Nov 4, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

It doesn't say the people never die. You also skipped over that it was speaking about carcases which are dead bodies not living bodies. Worms also do not feed on living bodies. Nothing there supports your doctrine.

This is describing enemies that physically died and are rotting with worms. The bodies are being burned but all can't be burned at the same time. This is unrelated to lake of fire punishment. This about how humans have to deal with dead bodies after a war to prevent diseases etc from plaguing the living.

.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 4, 2021

ewq1938 said:

"destroyed [G2673]" is INDEED in that verse (1Cor15:26)! What are you talkin about?!

It does not mean "annihilated"

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 4, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Nope. Not referring to that here (your idea of the lake of fire as being people being "burn up and be consumed into smoke" is not supported by the actual text of Rev20).

The passage in Psalm 37:20 is referring to "from the time they existed on the earth" (at / from THAT point).

And I covered the H3615 word (used 2x in Psalm 37:20) in a post many pages back:

Post #1469 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4692296

ewq1938 · Nov 4, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

My apologies, you are right it's there. I made a wrong assumption you were saying that word was word for death.

It certainly can have that meaning:

G2673
καταργέω
katargeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
1a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
1b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
2a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
2b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
2c) to terminate all intercourse with one
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G691
Citing in TDNT: 1:452, 76[/QUOTE]

What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

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