What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

Gardenias · Nov 4, 2021

Yes well I haven't seen you obeying these verses.
We are not supposed to use the word to wound each other either.
Lol, seems funny but IRL we might get along better.
I think we both are sure of our stance and won't be persuaded.
We both have shown an independent study of the word at times.
We both are blunt and say what we mean.
I don't see you as hypocritical just misguided in some scriptures.
You are headstrong and stubborn and you do most of your own thinking unlike another who is still on ignore.

Agree or disagree we are still Gods children,covered by the blood of Jesus!

Gardenias · Nov 4, 2021

Who says the LOF is not the second death? I haven't seen anyone deny that! It is the final judgment but it doesn't mean that it stops God's punishment of eternal torment for the wicked!

Pilgrimshope · Nov 4, 2021

ewq1938 said:

ahh so what your saying is I disagree with your interpretation of scripture ?

how do you interpret the scriptures in the post you replied to and skipped over lol while insisting in somehow ignoring and disagreeing with scripture ? Do you agree with scripture ?

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

how would you interpret this ?

all you can really say to this set of verses is “ it doesn’t say what it says “ or you could wuote some different verse and ignore this one but no I personally believe I agree with scripture such as the above

or

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if everlasting punishment is to not exist no one should fear the afterlife and judgement would be irrelevant if no rest day or night means eternal sleep or non existence I’m not sure where to at makes any sense

Gardenias · Nov 4, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

ahh so what your saying is I disagree with your interpretation of scripture ?

how do you interpret the scriptures in the post you replied to and skipped over lol while insisting in somehow ignoring and disagreeing with scripture ? Do you agree with scripture ?

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

how would you interpret this ?

all you can really say to this set of verses is “ it doesn’t say what it says “ or you could wuote some different verse and ignore this one but no I personally believe I agree with scripture such as the above

or

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if everlasting punishment is to not exist no one should fear the afterlife and judgement would be irrelevant if no rest day or night means eternal sleep or non existence I’m not sure where to at makes any sense

It doesn't make sense and furthermore its denying God's word as he means it!

Magenta · Nov 4, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

One problem is the number of verses that say something else, that is, the wicked shall perish, or be destroyed. Some of those verses are in metaphoric imagery, but many are not. Just straight up, straight out, and straightforward: they will perish; they will be destroyed. Whereas these very few verses from Revelation are sourced from a vision, written in apocalyptic language veiled in heavy symbolism. Aside from these visionary motifs written in apocalyptic imagery, there is very little to support eternal conscious torment, especially compared to the number of verses that speak directly of perishing, being destroyed to the uttermost, and death as the wages of sin. Then people confuse and equate death with life, a parable to mean something literal, and refuse to accept that the origin of their belief stems from Greek philosophy and pagan thought, endorsed by the Catholic church centuries after Christ, and draw on man-made traditions to bolster their view. Some deny that God alone is immortal while saying they believe the Bible as if those they disagree with do not. I can give a multitude of verses to support my view whereas some do not even know where part of what they believe comes from. This does not prevent them from rabidly defending it.

Pilgrimshope · Nov 4, 2021

Gardenias said:

yea I think also sometimes we have different interpretations of scripture and we then only see it one way

I know what I have read and believe and that is the afterlife has two destinations , eternity with Jesus in the kingdom

“Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

or with Satan

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

seems the fire is eternal i don’t think eternal rest is punishment

I think of people evil people who go through life doing evil they don’t believe so then they just commit all these evil acts and God then doesn’t punish evil
Like he said he would ? Certainly there will never be rest for the wicked even in death

“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:11‬ ‭

I personally think just that verse tells us the souls of the wicked will never have rest. But I understand why some don’t think That it’s part of the grace distortion “ Gods too good for that “ even though he’s been warning since all time

I believe God is so good he’s warned us about the afterlife thoroughly even from long ago if you notice often no matter what verse you quote it doesn’t always have an affect on others .

To me it’s simple we’re all spiritual beings and our bodies will all die the first death and then our spirit will go for jidgement and end up with Jesus forever or with the devil based on who we chose in life but that’s only my own belief and I often find much agreement in your words

ewq1938 · Nov 4, 2021

Gardenias said:

Anyone who says people are alive in the lake of fire deny a second death took place and a dead body in a God created fire will be consumed so no possibility of still being alive after the second death in God created fire.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 4, 2021

@Laura798 's Post #1600, where you'd said, "What a surprising and unexpected turn of events"...

Not really--I'm saying the same thing I've been saying throughout this thread:

"This is the second death--the lake of fire." v.14b

(NOT "This is the second death--DEATH... all over again... which had just "DELIVERED UP the DEAD" from it, in v.13

[i.e. "resurrection OF JUDGMENT / DAMNATION" per John 5:29b]... So, nope, it's not saying "This is the second death--DEATH [again]"... for "death" itself will have been cast into the lake of fire and "rendered inoperative" at that point... no one will be utilizing its function from this point on... And "the lake of fire" is said to be "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (a phrase--21x--NEVER meaning a "LIMITED" time-frame)

Post #1325 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4689902

Post #1213 (esp at the bottom) - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4688729

Post #698 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4685278

Post #423 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4679554

Post #371 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4679162

[just a few examples]

[it's just that you have etched in your mind that v.14 is saying, "This is the second death--annihilation / obliteration-into-nothingness". It doesn't.]

Pilgrimshope · Nov 4, 2021

Magenta said:

how would you interpret this revelation ?

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just simply what do you think these verses actually mean , without quoting ot scripture just what do these verses say ?

it’s definately about men who serve Satans Will I’m sure we agree there we can also see they will surely be tormented in fire and brimstone in Gods presence right ? And finally if they have no rest day or night how can they not exist ?

ewq1938 · Nov 4, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

That is related to getting the mark of the beast. They won't be able to rest day or night. It's not talking about the second death in a God created fire which will consume anything cast into it.

You are merely trivializing something which is far more fearful than you are admitting. Being killed in a fire and then never existing anymore is not a minor thing. It will be terrifying for the unsaved to know God is destroying them forever. That is an everlasting punishment.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 4, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Huh?

Nope. Verse 10 says (of "the devil" and "the beast" and "the false prophet"), "and THEY SHALL BE TORMENTED day and night UNTO THE AGES [PLURAL] OF THE AGES [PLURAL]" (not for a "LIMITED" time-frame... this phrase NEVER means that).

And v.13 just said, "death" and "hell/hades" DELIVERED UP the DEAD" (i.e. "resurrection OF JUDGMENT / DAMNATION").

Magenta · Nov 4, 2021

That the wicked are destroyed and perish is stated over and over and over and over
again in a multitude of ways throughout Scripture, right from Genesis to Revelation.

God's pattern is again and again repeatedly shown in Scripture: He destroys His enemies.

"That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction?
they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Job 21:30.

"Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD
shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them." Psalms 21:9.

"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt
diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Psalms 37:10.

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of
lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20.

"But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalms 37:38.

"As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before
the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God." Psalms 68:2.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.
Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD." Psalms 104:35.

"The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalms 145:20.

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul
of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy
traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will
bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee." Ezekiel 28:18.

"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee:
thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:19.

"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked;
but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why
will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezekiel 33:11.

"What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not
rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they
are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry." Nahum 1:9-10.

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and
all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up,
saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that
leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:" Matthew 7:13

Some say the majority believes ECT as if that makes it right. It is in fact a logical fallacy.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but
rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28.

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving
themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an
example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 1:7. That fire does NOT still burn.

"And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles
of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." Malachi 4:3.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Matthew 25:46.

Everlasting in consequence, not duration.

The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting. Nowhere
in Scripture will you find that the wicked will receive eternal life, only the righteous.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. The wicked perish.

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23.

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also
himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy
him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;" Hebrews 2:14.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering
to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9.

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Revelation 20:14.

It was the serpent/devil who first said:

"Thou shalt not surely die."

Unfortunately, the lie at the heart of the fall of man and corruption of all creation is being repeated to this very day.

Pilgrimshope · Nov 4, 2021

ewq1938 said:

you think the natural body is sent into hell ? The body returns to dust and ash but what becomes of the spirit ?

I agree no mortal humans body would endure but that’s the first death the body the one we all
Have to do , after we die in our flesh however our spirit doesn’t it goes to be judged by the lord and answer for all we did in the body

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think we couldn’t have any agreement if you are linking the afterlife to the body of flesh hay does first , the Lake of fire is a spiritual place just like the kingdom Of heaven it’s for eternal
Spirits not corrupt fleshly bodies

ewq1938 · Nov 4, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

God has used the idea of something "for ever" not being literally forever so you are wrong on that. Also, I am discussing the regular people cast into the LOF not the beast, FP and Devil. Not one scripture says the regular people will be tortured forever and MANY scriptures say they will be destroyed and consumed so that is the official position of the unsaved according to the bible.

Pilgrimshope · Nov 4, 2021

ewq1938 said:

That is related to getting the mark of the beast. They won't be able to rest day or night. It's not talking about the second death in a God created fire which will consume anything cast into it.

You are merely trivializing something which is far more fearful than you are admitting. Being killed in a fire and then never existing anymore is not a minor thing. It will be terrifying for the unsaved to know God is destroying them forever. That is an everlasting punishment.

yeah all I can say really is i don’t agree with your understanding of this subject

ewq1938 · Nov 4, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

The mortal bodies of the unsaved will be resurrected and then judged and cast into the LOF. That's what the bible tells us.

You don't know? It goes to Hades to await the day of judgment and resurrection.

The unsaved will be resurrected back into a living mortal body.

Laura798 · Nov 4, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Divinewatermark, this is so convulted and nonsensical--the LAST thing to be destroyed is DEATH.

Only the believer will receive ETERNAL LIFE--this is perfectly clear in scripture--ALL ELSE WILL BE DESTROYED--The Heavens and Earth and Everything in it. Are you saying you do not believe the verses which say literally "the wicked will be DESTROYED." ?

"
The Order of Resurrection
…25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him.…" -- 1st Corinthians 15:26

This is like when Anne Sullivan tried to sign to Helen Keller 'Water' only your eyes are WIDE OPEN yet still you do not see!

Magenta · Nov 4, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

2 Peter 2 gives Sodom and Gomorrah as a pattern of the destruction to come upon the un-Godly.

4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, among the eight; 6 if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly; 7 and if He rescued Lot, a righteous man distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

Sodom and Gomorrah, said to burn forever, are no longer burning. They were destroyed to the uttermost.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but forever is another one of those words (like those that were mistranslated into "hell") that has been mistranslated from the original languages, and often simply means a span or duration of time until God's purpose is accomplished. This is not to be confused with God's Self-existent eternality.

"Forever"

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 4, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Yeah, that's what I've been pointing out about the words "destroyed" and "consumed" you keep pointing out about the "wicked".

Meaning, they go to hades / hell (or whatever terms are used in OT regarding the same).

The thing is, ppl are MISSING THIS STEP, when they point out their OT passages about "destroyed / consumed"... which refers to "from the time they existed on the earth" (to NOT existing there).

Right.

"Death" and "hell/hades" DELIVERED UP the DEAD...

Then "death and hell/hades" are cast into the lake of fire (where "death" is "rendered inoperative" according to 1Cor15:26).

Verse 14 says, "This is the second death--THE LAKE OF FIRE" (not "death [again! (its been "rendered inoperative" at this point)]" and not "obliteration-into-nothingness"... or else the "beast" and the "false prophet" could not be said of them "and THEY [PLURAL]" (along with the devil) WILL BE TORMENTED [future tense]..., b/c if that were the case, they would have "incinerated" 1000 years prior to this point!
[Amil-teachings have butchered the chronology, as you well know... but it's EASY for "Annihilationists" to hold to "Amil" so they can insist this was the case, that they're all "incinerated" at THIS SAME MOMENT--GWTj--which they call the "general judgment"])

ditto what I said above (at the top)

Magenta · Nov 4, 2021

TheDivineWatermark said:

Death is the last enemy to be destroyed.

What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member