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You are asking the wrong question. Interesting too that you do not see ECT as cruel. Very odd indeed.
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man was, as all other parables, teaching a spiritual truth.
The moral of the story was not about how God is going to torment His enemies forever after.
Some doctrines even put forth the idea that God is going to torment forever after those
who did not choose Him, when that choice was never offered to them in the first place.
So too is there the man made tradition of refusing to call this parable of Lazarus
and the rich man a parable, despite being specifically told that Jesus spoke to
the crowds in parables. He did not tell them anything without using a parable.
A lot of spiritual discussions revolve around abstract concepts and ideas. These abstract concepts
and ideas must be weighed against those things which are spoken of in Scripture plainly, in a
straightforward manner, for instance, the plethora of verses which say that God's enemies will be
destroyed to the uttermost, perish, and the dead know nothing. They outnumber by far those that
seem to say otherwise, such as those from a book rich with symbolism and apocalyptic language.
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man was, as all other parables, teaching a spiritual truth.
The moral of the story was not about how God is going to torment His enemies forever after.
Some doctrines even put forth the idea that God is going to torment forever after those
who did not choose Him, when that choice was never offered to them in the first place.
So too is there the man made tradition of refusing to call this parable of Lazarus
and the rich man a parable, despite being specifically told that Jesus spoke to
the crowds in parables. He did not tell them anything without using a parable.
A lot of spiritual discussions revolve around abstract concepts and ideas. These abstract concepts
and ideas must be weighed against those things which are spoken of in Scripture plainly, in a
straightforward manner, for instance, the plethora of verses which say that God's enemies will be
destroyed to the uttermost, perish, and the dead know nothing. They outnumber by far those that
seem to say otherwise, such as those from a book rich with symbolism and apocalyptic language.
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First of all, it wasn’t Samuel at all! Even though Saul knows that it was an evil spirit that she saw, he still wants to know what it was. Saul wants the identity of the man; yet she is seeing a spirit manifestation (“gods" appearing before her). If you were in Saul’s place and you saw this spirit standing before you that looked like Samuel, spoke like Samuel and even wore the robe of a prophet, would you think also that it was Samuel come to you? This is what "Saul perceived" even though it was an evil spirit of Satan. Saul was deceived, and thus acted on the very message that Satan gave him through this evil spirit.
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Where does this "adding a name makes it a true story" come from?
It is not Biblical, that is for sure. And also overlooks what is explicitly stated:
He did not tell them anything without using a parable.
Adding names certainly adds weight to the spiritual message being conveyed.
And why would Jesus do this? Could it be because the most important decision one
makes in their life concerns their relationship with God? *Rhetorical Question, really.
All the more so because the consequence is ever after, following the resurrection and
judgment of all at the end of this age, whenever that may be. Some believe/claim this
fate is eternal conscious torment in burning flames. Others believe that those who refuse
God's plan of salvation for their lives will perish, as many Scriptures attest. The ECT adherent
will say such things as, death is not punishment, and yet that is exactly what God chose and
promised and iterated many times from beginning to end of the Bible, starting in Genesis 3.
They will also say that death is nothing to fear, which again flies in the face of what Scripture
explicitly teaches in Hebrews 2:15, where fear of death is named as the primary cause of slavery
to sin. Saying the non-believer then gets what they want is likewise foolish. Nobody in their right
mind wants to die, and Scripture affirms this too, for men are lovers of self, and this is also a major
reason why people reject God. Consider too, that the law and the prophets had just been mentioned
before Jesus told this parable. Prior to this parable, Jesus tells another parable about wealth, and
in the passage between, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for loving money, exalting themselves in self-
justification, and ignoring the Old Testament’s authority. All these elements are woven into L&trm.
Luke introduces the story the same way he does four parables that precede it, with a generalizing
formula: A man had a fig tree that was planted in his vineyard... ; A certain man prepared a great
banquet... ; There was a man who had two sons... ; There was a rich man whose manager was
accused of wasting his possession... ; Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen...
The parable itself is surrounded by parables. Why would anyone say it was not a parable? *RQ.
God prevented Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of Life and living ever after in their
state of sin, but we are to accept that God will keep sinners in an eternal state of torment?
No, I believe that disciple John taught the unrepentant sinner perishes, and those who were
taught directly under him did as well. Scripture certainly teaches that the wicked are punished
eternally, but not that the wicked endure eternal punishment. The wicked suffer “eternal punishment”
(Matthew 25:46), “eternal judgment” (Hebrews 6:2) and “eternal destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
the same way the elect experience “eternal redemption” (Hebrews 5:9, 9:12). The elect do not undergo
an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is eternal in the sense that once the elect are
redeemed, it is forever. So too, the damned do not undergo an eternal process of punishment or
destruction; once they are punished and destroyed, it is forever. LoF is eternal in consequence, not
duration. The wicked are “destroyed forever” (Psalm 92:7), but they are not forever being destroyed.
Peter in fact gives Sodom and Gomorrah as a prototype or pattern for this end-time destruction
of the wicked. Sodom and Gomorrah, which were said to burn forever, have in fact ceased burning.
Many places in Scripture, "forever" simply means until God's purpose is fulfilled. The Old Testament
affirms this, also. Below are just a few examples of the wicked being blotted out of existence:
“…rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together,
and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
…you shall be like an oak whose leaf withers,
and like a garden without water.
The strong shall become like tinder,
and their work like a spark;
they and their work shall burn together,
with no one to quench them,” (Isaiah1:28, 30–31)
So giving the burning bush as an example of a fire that does not consume its host is erroneous.
God was not showing Moses His wrath. God is a consuming fire Who destroys the wicked. The
Psalmist says that those who take delight in the Lord shall be “like trees planted by streams
of water” (1:3), and the wicked shall be “like chaff that the wind drives away…the wicked will
perish” (Psalm 1:4, 6). They shall be dashed “in pieces like a potter’s vessel” (2:9), torn into
fragments (50:22) and “blotted out of the book of the living…” (69:28, and Deuteronomy. 29:20)
Proverbs tells us that when “the tempest” of God’s judgment passes, “the wicked are no more…” (10:25)
When God’s fury rises, the “wicked are overthrown and are no more…” (12:7) “The evil have no future;
the lamp of the wicked will go out” (24:20). The wicked can have “no future” if in fact they shall never
cease to experience an eternal future of torment.
I cannot end off without mentioning that God's revealed written Word makes other immutable
declarations: All things will be made new. God alone is immortal. For anyone to hold to ECT,
they must ignore what Scripture explicitly states in straightforward language. The soul of man
is not inherently immortal. Immortality is put on by grace alone through faith alone in Christ
alone. .Jesus shed His righteous blood that we may be reconciled to God and have a life more
abundant. .Jesus did not idly threaten people to fear the One Who can destroy both body and soul.
Apollumi
"Forever"
It is not Biblical, that is for sure. And also overlooks what is explicitly stated:
He did not tell them anything without using a parable.
Adding names certainly adds weight to the spiritual message being conveyed.
And why would Jesus do this? Could it be because the most important decision one
makes in their life concerns their relationship with God? *Rhetorical Question, really.
All the more so because the consequence is ever after, following the resurrection and
judgment of all at the end of this age, whenever that may be. Some believe/claim this
fate is eternal conscious torment in burning flames. Others believe that those who refuse
God's plan of salvation for their lives will perish, as many Scriptures attest. The ECT adherent
will say such things as, death is not punishment, and yet that is exactly what God chose and
promised and iterated many times from beginning to end of the Bible, starting in Genesis 3.
They will also say that death is nothing to fear, which again flies in the face of what Scripture
explicitly teaches in Hebrews 2:15, where fear of death is named as the primary cause of slavery
to sin. Saying the non-believer then gets what they want is likewise foolish. Nobody in their right
mind wants to die, and Scripture affirms this too, for men are lovers of self, and this is also a major
reason why people reject God. Consider too, that the law and the prophets had just been mentioned
before Jesus told this parable. Prior to this parable, Jesus tells another parable about wealth, and
in the passage between, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for loving money, exalting themselves in self-
justification, and ignoring the Old Testament’s authority. All these elements are woven into L&trm.
Luke introduces the story the same way he does four parables that precede it, with a generalizing
formula: A man had a fig tree that was planted in his vineyard... ; A certain man prepared a great
banquet... ; There was a man who had two sons... ; There was a rich man whose manager was
accused of wasting his possession... ; Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen...
The parable itself is surrounded by parables. Why would anyone say it was not a parable? *RQ.
God prevented Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of Life and living ever after in their
state of sin, but we are to accept that God will keep sinners in an eternal state of torment?
No, I believe that disciple John taught the unrepentant sinner perishes, and those who were
taught directly under him did as well. Scripture certainly teaches that the wicked are punished
eternally, but not that the wicked endure eternal punishment. The wicked suffer “eternal punishment”
(Matthew 25:46), “eternal judgment” (Hebrews 6:2) and “eternal destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
the same way the elect experience “eternal redemption” (Hebrews 5:9, 9:12). The elect do not undergo
an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is eternal in the sense that once the elect are
redeemed, it is forever. So too, the damned do not undergo an eternal process of punishment or
destruction; once they are punished and destroyed, it is forever. LoF is eternal in consequence, not
duration. The wicked are “destroyed forever” (Psalm 92:7), but they are not forever being destroyed.
Peter in fact gives Sodom and Gomorrah as a prototype or pattern for this end-time destruction
of the wicked. Sodom and Gomorrah, which were said to burn forever, have in fact ceased burning.
Many places in Scripture, "forever" simply means until God's purpose is fulfilled. The Old Testament
affirms this, also. Below are just a few examples of the wicked being blotted out of existence:
“…rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together,
and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
…you shall be like an oak whose leaf withers,
and like a garden without water.
The strong shall become like tinder,
and their work like a spark;
they and their work shall burn together,
with no one to quench them,” (Isaiah1:28, 30–31)
So giving the burning bush as an example of a fire that does not consume its host is erroneous.
God was not showing Moses His wrath. God is a consuming fire Who destroys the wicked. The
Psalmist says that those who take delight in the Lord shall be “like trees planted by streams
of water” (1:3), and the wicked shall be “like chaff that the wind drives away…the wicked will
perish” (Psalm 1:4, 6). They shall be dashed “in pieces like a potter’s vessel” (2:9), torn into
fragments (50:22) and “blotted out of the book of the living…” (69:28, and Deuteronomy. 29:20)
Proverbs tells us that when “the tempest” of God’s judgment passes, “the wicked are no more…” (10:25)
When God’s fury rises, the “wicked are overthrown and are no more…” (12:7) “The evil have no future;
the lamp of the wicked will go out” (24:20). The wicked can have “no future” if in fact they shall never
cease to experience an eternal future of torment.
I cannot end off without mentioning that God's revealed written Word makes other immutable
declarations: All things will be made new. God alone is immortal. For anyone to hold to ECT,
they must ignore what Scripture explicitly states in straightforward language. The soul of man
is not inherently immortal. Immortality is put on by grace alone through faith alone in Christ
alone. .Jesus shed His righteous blood that we may be reconciled to God and have a life more
abundant. .Jesus did not idly threaten people to fear the One Who can destroy both body and soul.
Apollumi
"Forever"
Is that all you can say? Stick to your man-made tradition?
Where did this tradition originate? Who made up this rule?
I asked you first, so please answer my question before asking me yours.
ECT was not taught until centuries after Christ walked this world.
Hellenistic thought and pagan philosophy formed your belief, which
the RCC, via pope Gregory I (540 A.D - 604 A.D) gave the official sanction
of the Church, and in the 16th century, declared the original belief heresy.
The original belief being the total destruction of the un-Godly.
Where did this tradition originate? Who made up this rule?
I asked you first, so please answer my question before asking me yours.
ECT was not taught until centuries after Christ walked this world.
Hellenistic thought and pagan philosophy formed your belief, which
the RCC, via pope Gregory I (540 A.D - 604 A.D) gave the official sanction
of the Church, and in the 16th century, declared the original belief heresy.
The original belief being the total destruction of the un-Godly.
Since Samuel had already been justified by grace through faith, he was waiting to be taken out of Sheol/Hades to Heaven itself. It is too late for anyone when the Day of Christ arrives.
Sheol/Hades was virtually a prison for the saints, who would need to remain there in silence until the resurrection of Christ.
Samuel was right with God while he was serving God on earth. Thus we have the two books of Samuel (1 book in Hebrew).
I am not sure whether you are "wrong" or simply confused.
Sheol/Hades was virtually a prison for the saints, who would need to remain there in silence until the resurrection of Christ.
Samuel was right with God while he was serving God on earth. Thus we have the two books of Samuel (1 book in Hebrew).
I am not sure whether you are "wrong" or simply confused.
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By my understanding, "the grave"/"death" is what happens to/ where your body ends up. Hades/Sheol is where your soul would go to "in the heart of the earth". I don't think that's so much a physical location, so much as a spiritual one that transcends the physical- I don't know how that's provable, but it makes sense to me. OT saints weren't able to go directly into the presence of God, because Jesus didn't do his thing yet- so they got to hang out in a more pleasant quarter of the underworld.
I'm not sure about Enoch, though... I wonder what precisely God did with Enoch. I have a hard time believing that "god took him" simply by killing him, but at the same time, I don't think he was so righteous that he was born into his spiritual body like some people say. It's a mystery to me for now.
I'm not sure about Enoch, though... I wonder what precisely God did with Enoch. I have a hard time believing that "god took him" simply by killing him, but at the same time, I don't think he was so righteous that he was born into his spiritual body like some people say. It's a mystery to me for now.
1 Timothy 6:16a
He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light.
Scripture says no such thing, and actually contradicts it, so why would I believe it?
Can you read the words you wrote? We receive life everlasting, we are not born with it, for we must be born again.
Scripture affirms this, while many deny it. First the physical, then the spiritual.
For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,
then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory."
Those outside of Christ do not put on immortality through Christ.
Christ IS life. Without Him, they perish, as Scripture states in a multiplicity of ways.
He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light.
Scripture says no such thing, and actually contradicts it, so why would I believe it?
Can you read the words you wrote? We receive life everlasting, we are not born with it, for we must be born again.
Scripture affirms this, while many deny it. First the physical, then the spiritual.
For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality,
then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory."
Those outside of Christ do not put on immortality through Christ.
Christ IS life. Without Him, they perish, as Scripture states in a multiplicity of ways.
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There's a rather fresh thread that discussed this very topic you bring up. You can skim through if you'd like.
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4674744
https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4674744
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