What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Pilgrimshope]

For brevity, I'll address what I think what you believe is the best argument in favor of eternal torment and show you how that it's not about eternal torment.

I take it you believe "they have no rest day nor night" to mean eternal torment. I believe you may be mistaken. The clue is found in the Old Testament in Isaiah 34:9-10:

Isaiah 34:9-10
9And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

In regards to God's judgement against Edom, the same three elements are found in Revelation 14:11: judgement by fire, not quenched "day or night", and smoke that rises forever.

In the present day, there are no places with streams of eternal burning pitch, burning brimstone dust, and land made of burning pitch with smoke that rises forever; this means it's not literal.

Therefore, Isaiah 34:9-10 contains symbolic imagery used to convey the idea of complete and utter destruction of Edom. Revelation 14:11 should be interpreted to be symbolic imagery used to describe the complete and utter destruction of those who worship the beast or his image.

In conclusion, God's judgement and wrath had an end when Edom was destroyed; God's judgement and wrath will have an end when those who worship the beast are destroyed. It has nothing to do with eternal torment.

Yes I have read your interpretations of these things I just don’t agree

 

[Laura798]

There are so many holes in the false doctrine of eternal torment--again Protestants got it from the Roman Catholcs, who in turn got it from the pagans. "If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."

There are two serious theological errors in this doctrine:

1. The pagan belief that man is immortal but scripture says plainly only God is immortal. The gift of immortality is ONLY given to the believer, NOT to the unbeliever.
2. It is to deny that Christ paid the penalty for our sins in FULL by His death on the cross. "The wages of sin is DEATH", not eternal torment, otherwise Jesus would have to be in eternal torment Himself if that was the actual penalty for unbelief.

Thankfully, we know that is not the case. For scripture tells us He is ruling and reigning now and sits at the right hand of the Father!

 

[Runningman]

Yes I have read your interpretations of these things I just don’t agree

Fair enough.

If you want to take Revelation 14:10-11 literally then it doesn't actually mention eternal torment.

Revelation 14:10-11
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

1. "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels" - Doesn't say eternal or forever.
2. "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" - Only the smoke rises forever. Doesn't say people are tormented forever.
3. "they have no rest day nor night" - Does not say how many cycles of day and night there are. It doesn't say eternal or forever.

Revelation 14:10-11 can't be used to teach eternal torment. It saying nothing about people suffering forever.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Fair enough.

If you want to take Revelation 14:10-11 literally then it doesn't actually mention eternal torment.

Revelation 14:10-11
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

1. "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels" - Doesn't say eternal or forever.
2. "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" - Only the smoke rises forever. Doesn't say people are tormented forever.
3. "they have no rest day nor night" - Does not say how many cycles of day and night there are. It doesn't say eternal or forever.

Revelation 14:10-11 can't be used to teach eternal torment. It saying nothing about people suffering forever.

I don’t teach anything I’m here to discuss scripture as someone learning what’s there. This isn’t a teach g competition forum or in in the wrong place I thought it was for discussing what scripture says .

anything can be disregarded if we say it’s just not literal . But what even suggests it isn’t eternal ? In any way ? It’s one thing to argue the phrase doesn’t appear like you want it to appear but where is there any suggestion eternal punishment , torment any of those thkngs not eternal or shouldn’t be believed ? Where is your argument that it’s not eternal found ?

The truth is though man has a living spirit that at death parts the flesh and appears before God for judgement . That spirit survives the death of the body and appears alive before God for judgement in this place

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ….And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you can now argue why that doesn’t say what it says but it still does remember also the devil and his angels are spirits and we’re talking about a spiritual fire

without rejecting anything before you consider it consider the scriptures and how they build from ot to new to create an understanding

“And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭66:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:43-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬
hell Becomes part of the lake of fire that burns forever it’s cast into but remains kindled as a place of torment for those after the resurrection who are judged by thoer wicked deeds and rejection of Christ

hell began with Gods anger and wrath against Satan for what he did leading thre world astray but mankind served continually satans word and will after the fall and ruined earth his indignation came also to Man for sin the body dies by the law but the spirit lives after death

When you get to just this section in revelation it’s an apocalyptic vision of prior scripture like a summary vision

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

How can they who cease to exist , also be those having no rest day or night ?

That seems to be plain that they are in existence and without any rest from THier torment going on forever because they worshipped Satan and served him in the world rather than Christ in the gospel.

if they are just snuffed out how do they also have no rest ? And why would the smoke of tbier torment those men who worshipped the beast that is rose up forever while they have no rest ? Being tormented with fire and brimstone ?

It seems like your convinced and that’s okay

but to me it’s a lot simpler I just try to get rid of My own thoughts and preferences and discuss what I think it says what’s actually written leaves a case that convinced me too and that’s alright I think

because it’s a discussion forum we don’t have to save each other or correct each other on everything but we can discuss with open hearts and good hearts and grow together even if we differ at points I’m sure Jesus is both our lord either way and more sure we are brothers even if we don’t see eye to eye

this place could be good if we just openly discussed scripture but it can be bad if we let it become a war zone for the most part everyone here is trying to learn more than they already know myself included but I’m not here to teach anything to anyone just discuss Gods written word with other believers you included I’ve always enjoyed our interactions

 

[Yahshua]

Hey Pilgrimshope,

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

mans creation his construction

“And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground,

and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Agreed.

mans death , his deconstruction

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Agreed. But is man initially a spirit? Below I argue that he is not.

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

[...]

The body dies and decays into the dust it came from , the spirit returns to God to be judged by what they did while in the body

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭Pilgrimshope:10‬ ‭KJV

I'll have to disagree with this for two reasons:

1)

Ok for this point, I hope to draw your attention to the section I colored red in your quote. The judgment seat of Christ is at the end of the age after the Millennium, called The Great White Throne Judgment. It's where we're told that the grave and the sea etc give up their dead to be judged (Rev 20:11-14). We also know this to be the 2nd resurrection (the resurrection of the unjust) as other passages in the scriptures say. So these people are alive in bodies.

There can be no judgment prior to the GWT else folks are being judged twice. So for all of the related scripture to harmonize with Revelation 20, folks would need to remain in the grave until their resurrection and the GWT so that the very next thing they experience is their judgment per Hebrews 9:27.

2)

Posted here for reference: https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4676552 but shortened below for brevity...

The Word says (as an initial premise)...

- man became a soul. It doesn't say man possesses a soul.
- man is made a little lower than the angels
- angels are spirits
- man/Adam was sentenced to return to the dust of the earth because "dust [Adam is]" as specifically said by Almighty ("dust thou art").

This is the curse that falls on all mankind; the curse of Adam; that he returns to the ground because he is dust.

that’s a mans spirit that appears before the judgment throne in this place

“But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven,

and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Truly for the righteous. But those not part of the new covenant don't enter into this company. The passage says the spirits of JUST men. Consider this...


John 3:5-7
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Flesh is flesh. Spirit is spirit. Flesh isn't spirit. Spirit isn't flesh.

Being born again as part of the new covenant is transforming from "flesh" to "spirit". From earthly (below) to heavenly (above). So doesn't it stand to reason that those who do not accept the Messiah aren't born again and thus aren't "spirits" but still "flesh"? Otherwise, we're attributing qualities and characteristics reserved for the "born again" onto the unjust who are still living within the initial premise.


1 Corinthians 15:45

- 1st Adam was a living soul (and all those from him)

- 2nd Adam is a life-giving spirit (and all those in Him)


Blessings, brother.

 

[Laura798]

There are so many holes in the false doctrine of eternal torment--again Protestants got it from the Roman Catholcs, who in turn got it from the pagans. "If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."

There are two serious theological errors in this doctrine:

1. The pagan belief that man is immortal but scripture says plainly only God is immortal. The gift of immortality is ONLY given to the believer, NOT to the unbeliever.
2. It is to deny that Christ paid the penalty for our sins in FULL by His death on the cross. "The wages of sin is DEATH", not eternal torment, otherwise Jesus would have to be in eternal torment Himself if that was the actual penalty for unbelief.

Thankfully, we know that is not the case. For scripture tells us He is ruling and reigning now and sits at the right hand of the Father!

And I must add one more:

3. It attributes evil to God. This is the one blaspheme that will not be forgiven not in this age or the age to come.

Jesus accused of having a demon in Mark 3:22-30

22The scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons.” 23And He called them to Himself and began speaking to them in parables, “How can Satan cast out Satan? 24“If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25“If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26“If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished! 27“But no one can enter the strong man’s house and plunder his property unless he first binds the strong man, and then he will plunder his house.
28“Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”— 30because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”

 

[ewq1938]

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:43-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Looks like worms get to suffer eternal torture. Doesn't say the people "dieth not", does it?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hey Pilgrimshope,



Agreed.



Agreed. But is man initially a spirit? Below I argue that he is not.



I'll have to disagree with this for two reasons:

1)

Ok for this point, I hope to draw your attention to the section I colored red in your quote. The judgment seat of Christ is at the end of the age after the Millennium, called The Great White Throne Judgment. It's where we're told that the grave and the sea etc give up their dead to be judged (Rev 20:11-14). We also know this to be the 2nd resurrection (the resurrection of the unjust) as other passages in the scriptures say. So these people are alive in bodies.

There can be no judgment prior to the GWT else folks are being judged twice. So for all of the related scripture to harmonize with Revelation 20, folks would need to remain in the grave until their resurrection and the GWT so that the very next thing they experience is their judgment per Hebrews 9:27.

2)

Posted here for reference: https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4676552 but shortened below for brevity...

The Word says (as an initial premise)...

- man became a soul. It doesn't say man possesses a soul.
- man is made a little lower than the angels
- angels are spirits
- man/Adam was sentenced to return to the dust of the earth because "dust [Adam is]" as specifically said by Almighty ("dust thou art").

This is the curse that falls on all mankind; the curse of Adam; that he returns to the ground because he is dust.



Truly for the righteous. But those not part of the new covenant don't enter into this company. The passage says the spirits of JUST men. Consider this...


John 3:5-7
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Flesh is flesh. Spirit is spirit. Flesh isn't spirit. Spirit isn't flesh.

Being born again as part of the new covenant is transforming from "flesh" to "spirit". From earthly (below) to heavenly (above). So doesn't it stand to reason that those who do not accept the Messiah aren't born again and thus aren't "spirits" but still "flesh"? Otherwise, we're attributing qualities and characteristics reserved for the "born again" onto the unjust who are still living within the initial premise.


1 Corinthians 15:45

- 1st Adam was a living soul (and all those from him)

- 2nd Adam is a life-giving spirit (and all those in Him)


Blessings, brother.

yes adam became a living soul , he was created from dust a body , and then God breathed his living spirit into Adam that’s what makes a living soul a body with a living spirit

“Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a soul is a body with a spirit inside we are the spirit in the body the body is like our operating vehicle it does whatever the spirit decides. The spirit is the life the mind and heart everything not physical .

Adam was a spirit given of God into his own body made of the earth ( flesh ) we operate on earth in the body but who we are the living spirit returns to God for judgement of what we did in the body when we perish.

our spirit is actually being saved is what’s happening we don’t receive a replacement but the Holy Spirit comes to dwell With us a counselor and witness healing us , teaching us . together with our spirit he became our shepherd to lead us through life

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬


He came to save us from the condemnation ahead for all sinners souls

it’s about our living spirit being saved from the indignation declared on sin being born again means we’re being made into new creations by believing the gospel and things Christ taught us to believe about him and the kingdom of heaven and applying his teachings to life

if we repent and get our sins remitted we don’t have to worry about the lake of fire or eternal punishment is the thing that’s a better subject. Glory in the eternal kingdom

God only spoke of these terrible things to keep Us from them if we believe and so those who end up there have no excuse It’s about the kingdom

“When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: …And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-32, 34, 40-41, 45-46‬ ‭

These aren’t physical kingdoms but spiritual for spiritual creatures having glorified spiritual bodies.
everyone alive has adams corrupted spirit corrupted by the knowledge of good and evil but we can be redeemed by the knowledge of truth in the gospel

We need a new way of thinking and living we believe the gospel and he’s able to impart by faith the right thinking and actions and it’s by him redeeming our condemned spirit before we enter into death in sin we can be saved from death by putting true flesh dominion to death and living by the spirit of Christ with us


“That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Our spirit can be made new through the atonement and word of God

 

[Laura798]

I don’t teach anything I’m here to discuss scripture as someone learning what’s there. This isn’t a teach g competition forum or in in the wrong place I thought it was for discussing what scripture says .

anything can be disregarded if we say it’s just not literal . But what even suggests it isn’t eternal ? In any way ? It’s one thing to argue the phrase doesn’t appear like you want it to appear but where is there any suggestion eternal punishment , torment any of those thkngs not eternal or shouldn’t be believed ? Where is your argument that it’s not eternal found ?

The truth is though man has a living spirit that at death parts the flesh and appears before God for judgement . That spirit survives the death of the body and appears alive before God for judgement in this place

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ….And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:41, 46‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you can now argue why that doesn’t say what it says but it still does remember also the devil and his angels are spirits and we’re talking about a spiritual fire

without rejecting anything before you consider it consider the scriptures and how they build from ot to new to create an understanding

“And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭66:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:43-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬
hell Becomes part of the lake of fire that burns forever it’s cast into but remains kindled as a place of torment for those after the resurrection who are judged by thoer wicked deeds and rejection of Christ

hell began with Gods anger and wrath against Satan for what he did leading thre world astray but mankind served continually satans word and will after the fall and ruined earth his indignation came also to Man for sin the body dies by the law but the spirit lives after death

When you get to just this section in revelation it’s an apocalyptic vision of prior scripture like a summary vision

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;

and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

How can they who cease to exist , also be those having no rest day or night ?

That seems to be plain that they are in existence and without any rest from THier torment going on forever because they worshipped Satan and served him in the world rather than Christ in the gospel.

if they are just snuffed out how do they also have no rest ? And why would the smoke of tbier torment those men who worshipped the beast that is rose up forever while they have no rest ? Being tormented with fire and brimstone ?

It seems like your convinced and that’s okay


but to me it’s a lot simpler I just try to get rid of My own thoughts and preferences and discuss what I think it says what’s actually written leaves a case that convinced me too and that’s alright I think

because it’s a discussion forum we don’t have to save each other or correct each other on everything but we can discuss with open hearts and good hearts and grow together even if we differ at points I’m sure Jesus is both our lord either way and more sure we are brothers even if we don’t see eye to eye

this place could be good if we just openly discussed scripture but it can be bad if we let it become a war zone for the most part everyone here is trying to learn more than they already know myself included but I’m not here to teach anything to anyone just discuss Gods written word with other believers you included I’ve always enjoyed our interactions

I'm seeing a dialogue here--you trying to clarify your position and Runningman his. However, those of us who believe in Annihilationism do not see the difference as 'trivial' as one poster termed it--it is an egregious blasphemy against God's character, to attribute evil to Him.

As I say test Scripture against Scripture--there are a multitude of LITERAL verses that say the wicked are destroyed, they perish, they are no more--God never contradicts himself or his moral character. He was angered at the Israelites following the pagan practices by burning their children in the fire as a sacrifice to Baal. Then how much more evil is it to attribute eternal conscious torment to God? What would be the purpose in it anyway ? And it just flies in the face of reason--the scriptures clearly say the wages of sin is DEATH. Christ paid that penalty with His DEATH--not eternal torment. All of Revelation is symbolic and the angel explains what the lake of fire represents. "The lake of fire is the second death--it is said at least 2 or 3 times in Revelation, therefore we KNOW based on other verses that eternal fire is DESTRUCTION / DEATH. And note in my earlier post I showed where the angel explained what things represented--if one takes the lake of fire literally, then they will have to take the rest of it literally as well.

 

[Yahshua]

I'm only cutting your post below to highlight the key points in which we differ.

we are the spirit in the body the body is like our operating vehicle

Adam was a spirit given of God into his own body

He came to save us from the condemnation ahead for all sinners souls

I think Paul can explain it best in the rest of his letter to the corinthians. Note especially verse 46.


1 Corinthians 15:35, 44-49
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


Regarding man, Paul says the spirit wasn't first. Adam (and consequently man from him) was not a spirit given a body but was an earthly body animated by spirit; he's of the earth; natural. Only the second Adam/The Messiah is Spirit that was given an earthly body. He then offers all men the gift of becoming like He is. That doesn't happen unless and until we accept Him.

Those who don't accept him do not innately have what He has. They are not everlasting spirits riding in bodies.

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

It is disgraceful to see that at least 8 members in cc don't believe God's word about eternal torment in the lake of fire as literal but figuratively.

Who knows there may be many more!

Makes me wonder what ELSE in God's word they don't believe is LITERAL !

Course who knows they may not be believers and followers of Jesus either

Now certainly we can all agree that death IS annihilation. It's a total annihilation. So, what is it that is bothering you so much? It appears to me that you personally want to exact vengeance by ensuring that these horrible people suffer forever without end. But Who does vengeance belong to? Would you be content to stand on the sidelines and watch them be tortured day and night for all eternity? Is this a Christian mindset? God teaches us that the wicked shall perish. Isn't that enough for you? It‘s more than sufficient for me because He says:

Vengeance is Mine, and recompense; Their foot shall slip in due time; For the day of their calamity is at hand, And the things to come hasten upon them.' "For the LORD will judge His people And have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their power is gone, And there is no one remaining, bond or free. He will say: 'Where are their gods, The rock in which they sought refuge? Who ate the fat of their sacrifices, And drank the wine of their drink offering? Let them rise and help you, And be your refuge. 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand. For I raise My hand to heaven, And say, "As I live forever, If I whet My glittering sword, And My hand takes hold on judgment, I will render vengeance to My enemies, And repay those who hate Me. I will make My arrows drunk with blood, And My sword shall devour flesh, With the blood of the slain and the captives, From the heads of the leaders of the enemy." ' "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And render vengeance to His adversaries; He will provide atonement for His land and His people."

 

[SaltwaterGirl]

This looks like it all comes down to what one believes spiritual death to be.
We both think the punishment is death and it lasts eternally.
You think that "death" for a spirit being means an end of all conscious awareness.
I think that "death" for a spirit being means being cut off from God.

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mathew 10:28

Only one person has the ability to kill both your body and your soul, and that person is Almighty God Himself. He created both your body and your soul, and just as He created both, He can also destroy both.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mathew 10:28

Only one person has the ability to kill both your body and your soul, and that person is Almighty God Himself. He created both your body and your soul, and just as He created both, He can also destroy both.

Hi,
Please see my post no 276

 

[Magenta]

Something as detestable as sacrificing children in the fire to Molech didn’t enter into the mind and heart of God (as written in Jeremiah); it is something that He hates (as written in Deuteronomy); it is something He told them not to do because it would profane His name. Burning people in a literal fire forever in a place called hell/Lake of Fire would make God a hypocrite, and contradict the statements made in Deuteronomy, for it’s something God hates, arouses His anger, and profanes His holy Name.

 

[Laura798]

HI Barney,

It seems you are trolling as you obviously didn't read any of our postings with their supporting scriptures. And it isn't very smart of you to post a picture of yourself for everyone to see--what's the point of a pseudonym, then?

I'm going to tell Andy about your shenanigans. And Aunt Bee--you won't be invited to Sunday dinner today, I imagine.

Hi Barney,

I just discovered your method of study---you may want to try something a bit different...just sayin'

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

I believe in eternal torment, as probably most of us do here. But this guy lays out a pretty good argument for annihilation.

A little thought experiment.
It is written that if you think of adultery, God will consider you an adulterer.
When you think of torture, how will your appear before God?

 

[Magenta]

Hi Barney,

I just discovered your method of study---you may want to try something a bit different...just sayin'

These days we may think of such old shows like that "hokey," but that was actually very well acted

 

[Laura798]

These days we may think of such old shows like that "hokey," but that was actually very well acted

Don Knotts was an absolutely brilliant comedic actor. The Andy Griffith Show actually had some wonderful characters--think the Barber and Otis the town drunk ...and Ron Howard was terrific as Opie.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I believe being destroyed, or put to death rather, is permanent and will not be reversed. I don't see any such verses that talk of being put to death, then resurrected, in an eternal cycle of eternal torment.

What I hear you saying (correct me if I'm not reading you right) is that you do not believe Scripture speaks of such a thing as "resurrection OF JUDGMENT" [some translations say "of damnation"] (in contrast to "resurrection OF LIFE" mentioned in the same passage).

In other words, something [judgment] that goes further beyond just "death" that this "resurrection OF JUDGMENT [or, damnation]" speaks of further. Meaning, beyond "death"... to "RESURRECTION of judgment" (at some point AFTER they've experienced "DEATH"... right?)

And this is what we see occurring at the GWTj time-slot... "and death and hades/hell GAVE/DELIVERED UP the DEAD"... "and they were judged" (v.13)... where these people ("the dead") are shown to "stand before God" (v.12) for this judgment (the GWTj).

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

if they are just snuffed out how do they also have no rest ?

Precious friend, Great Question. In addition, I have Not had this answered Either:
According To God's Plain Scriptures:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Q: IF they had Different DEGREES of works, Which requires Differing DEGREES
Of Punishment, how is that possible with "snuffed out annihilation"?
Impossible, as EVERYONE would "have THE SAME Degree!" Correct?
-----------------------------------------------
For ALL who may read this, and wish to AVOID God's RIGHTEOUS Justice:
God's Simple Will!