What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Yahshua]

ONE of the 21 verses [and RECALL the "CHRONOLOGY" issues I had raised!] which I listed with this specific phrase, states:


"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to/unto the ages of the ages." - Rev20:10


(there's no "dying" out-from this, for "DEATH" will have been "destroyed [G2673 - make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught; to render inoperative]" at this GRWj point in the chronology]; others are also "cast into," at this GWTj point in the chronology [i.e. same point in time], per v.15)

Ok, I think I got it.

You're saying, "as far as the order of events; people not found in the book are cast into the fire after satan & angels and after death & hell are all cast into the fire. And if the passage says that satan and angels are tormented day and night forever...and if death itself is cast into the fire rendering death an impossibility...then people not found in the book of life - per the very last verse of chapter 20 - also would be tormented day and night forever along with satan."

Is this a fair rendering of your position?

 

[ewq1938]

But as far as I've read, Laura's argument isn't that the "2nd death punishment is temporary", but that it isn't "torture forever". Her argument is that it's "death forever".

Yes, correct. They don't understand that eternal damnation means eternal judgement and that the judgement was death not torture.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@Yashua 's Post #241 ,

To answer your question, I point you to what I'd said in my Posts #196 and more condensed (same) in Post #199, which I will C&P here:


[quoting excerpt from those posts]


...in other words, "hell/hades" (and "death") is what PRECEDES this point in the chronology [/GWTj point in time],

...and thus what FOLLOWS this point in the chronology is "death and hell/hades DELIVERED UP the DEAD that were in them" for this final carrying out of the sentence, so to speak, of which this passage states that it ('the lake of fire') is:

"for ever and ever"/"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" [<--which phrase ALWAYS has THE SAME MEANING in ALL 21x it is used!]







____________


IOW, there are not "TWO COMPARTMENTS" in the lake of fire (one for the three persons listed as "THEY" in v.10, and another for those referred to in v.15 who are said to ALSO be "cast in" at this point. NO.)



"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to/unto the ages of the ages." - Rev20:10

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

That post ^ was supposed to be addressed to @Yahshua (typo! sry!)

 

[Yahshua]

@Yashua 's Post #241 ,

To answer your question, I point you to what I'd said in my Posts #196 and more condensed (same) in Post #199, which I will C&P here:


[quoting excerpt from those posts]


...in other words, "hell/hades" (and "death") is what PRECEDES this point in the chronology [/GWTj point in time],

...and thus what FOLLOWS this point in the chronology is "death and hell/hades DELIVERED UP the DEAD that were in them" for this final carrying out of the sentence, so to speak, of which this passage states that it ('the lake of fire') is:

"for ever and ever"/"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" [<--which phrase ALWAYS has THE SAME MEANING in ALL 21x it is used!]







____________


IOW, there are not "TWO COMPARTMENTS" in the lake of fire (one for the three persons listed as "THEY" in v.10, and another for those referred to in v.15 who are said to ALSO be "cast in" at this point. NO.)



"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to/unto the ages of the ages." - Rev20:10

Ok. Could you post yes or no for the following without any added explanation and I'll be able to find my way to your point:

Chronology:
1. satan and his cohorts are cast into lake o'fire to be tormented ages and ages
2. death and hell/hades deliver up their dead to be judged
3. death & hell/hades are cast into lake o'fire
4. the last enemy to be "rendered obsolete" is death by being cast into lake
5. those not found in the book of life are cast into lake o'fire
6. they are tormented - just like satan and his cohorts - for ages and ages
7. point #4 & #6 are what you mean when you said "there is no 'escaping' this, no 'dying'" in one earlier post


If you could just make a list of a bunch of yes's and no's next to the corresponding number then I'll understand based on all you've posted.

 

[Laura798]

Confusion is /always/ confusing and& might as well type it (ON a KEYboard)<------- out in a confusing (way]-- to double down [TWO 2x}} on confusion (see post 191!)!

Ok, I think I got it.

You're saying, "as far as the order of events; people not found in the book are cast into the fire after satan & angels and after death & hell are all cast into the fire. And if the passage says that satan and angels are tormented day and night forever...and if death itself is cast into the fire rendering death an impossibility...then people not found in the book of life - per the very last verse of chapter 20 - also would be tormented day and night forever along with satan."

Is this a fair rendering of your position?

Yahshua, I think you would make an excellent detective!
( i thought that might be it, but then thought i was wrong, since my other post numbering the sequence of events wasn't responded to)

However, since the bible says the wicked are destroyed, perish, die, are no more, this deduction by DW would actually not be a puzzle piece that fits into the master puzzle of scripture. "A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found."--Psalm 37:

What a treasure trove of verses that uphold the love, justice, mercy, and TRUTH of our Heavenly Father--we have only to pray and LOOK!

 

[Yahshua]

Yahshua, I think you would make an excellent detective!
( i thought that might be it, but then thought i was wrong, since my other post numbering the sequence of events wasn't responded to)

However, since the bible says the wicked are destroyed, perish, die, are no more, this deduction by DW would actually not be a puzzle piece that fits into the master puzzle of scripture. "A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found."--Psalm 37:

What a treasure trove of verses that uphold the love, justice, mercy, and TRUTH of our Heavenly Father--we have only to pray and LOOK!

haha Well, I thought I had it and was hoping for a simple "yes" but then was a bit deflated when I didn't get it (lol). Could've sworn that was it. I just posted a list too. Usually, I can understand DW's posts after having read many for as long as he's been here but these were a bit challenging to be honest.

What I find pretty interesting is most of us have a style of writing that almost becomes our signature in a way. Funny how you can never meet people in the flesh but still get to know them.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ok. Could you post yes or no for the following without any added explanation and I'll be able to find my way to your point:

Chronology:
1. satan and his cohorts are cast into lake o'fire to be tormented ages and ages

NO.





[you've placed two distinct POINTS IN TIME into ONE POINT IN TIME, under your #1 of "CHRONOLOGY"--which I assume you meant FIRST IN THE CHRONOLOGY ("1." = if you mean, at the same moment occurring)...]




...sorry for clarifying



[sorry... I felt I had to clarify, since I did say that not grasping the "CHRONOLOGY" issues is a BIG PART of misunderstanding the various judgment scenes and the phrase "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]"]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^

Rev19:20 ("cast into") takes place WELL-BEFORE the Rev20:10 ("cast into") occurs.



[occurring 1000 years apart... so, DISTINCT as far as "CHRONOLOGY" goes... not to mention, the "WHO" of each of these verses]

 

[Laura798]

^

Rev19:20 ("cast into") takes place WELL-BEFORE the Rev20:10 ("cast into") occurs.



[occurring 1000 years apart... so, DISTINCT as far as "CHRONOLOGY" goes... not to mention, the "WHO" of each of these verses]

 

[Aaron56]

How on earth am I trolling? I have articulated my position in a rational way, supporting all that I say with Scripture--THAT is not trolling. And to call well articulated arguments nonsense when anyone can see that those on the Annihilation side have backed up their arguments with scripture where most on the other side, simply speak out of their own ideas as well as attack us. Frankly I feel like I am trying to share rational arguments with people from the dark ages who did not have at their disposal the Holy Scriptures.

I’m setting the over / under chance of her cursing you with hellfire in a future post to 60%.

Any way, she’s now ignored.

 

[Aaron56]

Devine’s posts are a stark reminder how generations of Jews could search the scriptures to find the Messiah but they could not see Him as He stood in their midst. Thank God the keys of the kingdom are not given to the logicians, the English Majors, nor to those with an electronic Strong’s Concordance.

 

[Aaron56]

haha Well, I thought I had it and was hoping for a simple "yes" but then was a bit deflated when I didn't get it (lol). Could've sworn that was it. I just posted a list too. Usually, I can understand DW's posts after having read many for as long as he's been here but these were a bit challenging to be honest.

What I find pretty interesting is most of us have a style of writing that almost becomes our signature in a way. Funny how you can never meet people in the flesh but still get to know them.

I bet Yahshua does Sudoku puzzles.

Nicely done, my brother.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1. satan and his cohorts are cast into lake o'fire to be tormented ages and ages

Not "ages and ages".

And not "for ages and ages" (like you phrased it under your point # "6.")



The phrase in 21 verses is "UNTO THE AGES [PLURAL] OF THE AGES [PLURAL]" (which ALWAYS means the SAME THING in all 21x it is used; It is DISTINCT FROM other passages using the word "ages" in any way other than THIS PHRASE SPECIFICALLY)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You have not been like a Berean,for you have an unbibical idea twisted to fit your belief rather than one grounded by scripture in Gods words.

You say that ^ of another poster... and then you say this:

No one is going to be looking up 21 verses--then we would have to cut and paste them all into a document to compare them all. That would take a terrific amount of time and effort.

I just don't "hear" the Bereans saying such a thing...



"Paul[!]... PAAAUUUUULLLL[!] ....you're not going to make us LOOK UP 21 VERSES, are you?!?!?! [*waaaahhh!*]"

[ ]




____________

Listen, if I can "look up" 21 verses (TO STUDY THEM), then SO CAN YOU!

It's not "harder" than searching out your article link to post, really... especially since I LISTED ALL 21 VERSES where this phrase is used.
EASY PEASY to go to your Bible or online resource and LOOK AT THEM!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Sorry, ^ I had grabbed the wrong quote... the top one was supposed to be a quote from "Laura798"... meant this one (said to another poster):

You simply support the doctrine that you've been taught, rather than searching the scriptures to see if what we are saying is indeed true. We even did the work for you by posting scriptures

...and this:

L798: I can see too, that you've jumped in without having looked at any of our arguments along with the supporting verses.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I have articulated my position in a rational way, supporting all that I say with Scripture--THAT is not trolling.

All you have done is MISINTERPRET Scripture to fit your false beliefs. Here's one example:

QUOTING ONE OF YOUR POSTS IN THIS THREAD
'13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.… Note that verse 15 is affirming what has happened in verse 13. It is making it perfectly clear, what will happen to those who are judged. The angel explains what the lake of fire is--"The lake of fire IS the second death." Death means death--again the whole of scripture will need to be called into question if you do not believe death means death. perish means perish. Destroy means destroy. No suffering will exist in the universe--God said He is making "ALL things new", where there will be "NO MORE sorrow and no more tears." '

You have simply misinterpreted the second death to mean annihilation by saying "no suffering will exist in the universe". But that CONTRADICTS God and Christ so let me show you from Scripture how the Lake of Fire -- which includes eternal separation from God -- is not only the second death, but it is eternal suffering and torment. The meaning of the second death is eternal separation from God.

REVELATION 14: ETERNAL TORMENT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

So what do we learn from this passage:

1. It speaks of the fate of those who take the Mark of the Beast.

2. The Beast (the Antichrist) is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2, and there we read that all those who are deceived by the Antichrist shall be damned (v, 12). Damnation is eternal damnation in Scripture.

3. These are tormented with "fire and brimstone". That is the fire of Hell, the Lake of Fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels, and is called "the lake of fire and brimstone" below. Hence we read in Revelation 20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

4. Is is not crystal clear and plain as day that in Rev 20:10 the devil, the beast, and the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever? And does not "for ever and ever" mean "eternal" which means that this is eternal torment and eternal damnation?

5. And when the Bible says that those who take the Mark of the Beast experience "the smoke of their torment ascend[ing] up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night", that it is identical to the suffering of the devil?

6. And is this not CONCLUSIVE AND FINAL PROOF FROM THE BIBLE that the same eternal torment suffered by the devil and the Unholy Trinity will also be suffered by those who are damned?

So is this not proof that your are (1) misinterpreting Scripture, (2) making God and Christ liars, and (3) trolling? So now if you are indeed serious (and also afraid of serious consequences for perverting the Word of God), you should tender a public apology and let everyone know that you will adhere to what the Bible says.

 

[ewq1938]

All you have done is MISINTERPRET Scripture to fit you false beliefs.

You don't even know what you are talking about.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


There is only one kind of eternal life, and that is with God as overcomers judged to life. Those judged to death on judgment day, which is called the second death, will not have eternal life in hell or torment. Their punishment is death and that punishment will last for all eternity. They shall not live eternally in agony because they shall not have eternal life of any kind.

Look at how many scriptures refute the idea of eternal life in hell fire:



"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20

Judgment is a decision to reward or punish someone. The judgement/punishment for sin is death (Romans 6:23), which is also called the second death (Rev 21:8), and that judgement/punishment is written to be eternal/everlasting (Mark 3:29, Hebrews 6:2). So, eternal punishment is an eternal death.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You don't even know what you are talking about.

Since I quoted Scripture you are actually attacking the Word of God. So you are another one who cannot understand the Bible and is perverting the truth. There are serious consequences for doing this.

 

[Laura798]

All you have done is MISINTERPRET Scripture to fit you false beliefs. Here's one example:

QUOTING ONE OF YOUR POSTS IN THIS THREAD
'13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.… Note that verse 15 is affirming what has happened in verse 13. It is making it perfectly clear, what will happen to those who are judged. The angel explains what the lake of fire is--"The lake of fire IS the second death." Death means death--again the whole of scripture will need to be called into question if you do not believe death means death. perish means perish. Destroy means destroy. No suffering will exist in the universe--God said He is making "ALL things new", where there will be "NO MORE sorrow and no more tears." '

You have simply misinterpreted the second death to mean annihilation by saying "no suffering will exist in the universe". But that CONTRADICTS God and Christ so let me show you from Scripture how the Lake of Fire -- which includes eternal separation from God -- is not only the second death, but it is eternal suffering and torment. The meaning of the second death is eternal separation from God.

REVELATION 14: ETERNAL TORMENT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

So what do we learn from this passage:

1. It speaks of the fate of those who take the Mark of the Beast.

2. The Beast (the Antichrist) is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2, and there we read that all those who are deceived by the Antichrist shall be damned (v, 12). Damnation is eternal damnation in Scripture.

3. These are tormented with "fire and brimstone". That is the fire of Hell, the Lake of Fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels, and is called "the lake of fire and brimstone" below. Hence we read in Revelation 20:10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

4. Is is not crystal clear and plain as day that in Rev 20:10 the devil, the beast, and the false prophet shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever? And does not "for ever and ever" mean "eternal" which means that this is eternal torment and eternal damnation?

5. And when the Bible says that those who take the Mark of the Beast experience "the smoke of their torment ascend[ing] up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night", that it is identical to the suffering of the devil?

6. And is this not CONCLUSIVE AND FINAL PROOF FROM THE BIBLE that the same eternal torment suffered by the devil and the Unholy Trinity will also be suffered by those who are damned?

So is this not proof that your are (1) misinterpreting Scripture, (2) making God and Christ liars, and (3) trolling? So now if you are indeed serious (and also afraid of serious consequences for perverting the Word of God), you should tender a public apology and let everyone know that you will adhere to what the Bible says.

DW,
ALL of Revelation uses symbols and the angel explains what most of them are. The angel says the Lake of fire IS the second death.

"Fanaticism always comes from the isolation of verses."

And it is apparent that you have read none of our preceding arguments with their supporting scriptures. The literal verses state that man's end is death and destruction--DEATH is the penalty for sin NOT eternal conscious torment! If you believe that then you do not believe Christ paid the penalty for our sin by His own death on the cross.

As I said in a previous post, God is sending fire on the earth--the verse says "Those who WORSHIP the beast not worshipped.

This fire is the same fire and sulphur he rained down on Sodom and Gommorah. "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."--Jude 1:7 (

eternal fire--the fire is eternal NOT the thing being burned--it is figurative language signifying complete and utter destruction.