What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

[Gardenias]

Gardenias,

The only thing I am contrary to is false doctrine. You make claims on an emotional basis rather than a rational one.

I've noticed a pattern in these forums, that when someone has the wrong end of the stick, they began attacking and name calling, leaving out scripture and speaking out of their own ideas.

"The Bereans were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."-- Acts 17:11

Well PTL,do your feet walk on the earth?

You have not been like a Berean,for you have an unbibical idea twisted to fit your belief rather than one grounded by scripture in Gods words.

I do not have the wrong end of the stick lol,but I have God's inspired word for correct understanding in the light of the Holy Spirit.


BTW,I'm done with this lie and will allow you to believe as you wish but know this I will be praying that no one else is sucked into this lie.

Good day

 

[Laura798]

Laura you have been presented with plenty of Scriptures to REFUTE you and your unbiblical ideas.

And so far you have shown that you do not understand anything. If you are here to learn something become a student. If you are are to promote false teachings, you will have a hard time presenting nonsense. And if you are here simply to troll, have fun.

How on earth am I trolling? I have articulated my position in a rational way, supporting all that I say with Scripture--THAT is not trolling. And to call well articulated arguments nonsense when anyone can see that those on the Annihilation side have backed up their arguments with scripture where most on the other side, simply speak out of their own ideas as well as attack us. Frankly I feel like I am trying to share rational arguments with people from the dark ages who did not have at their disposal the Holy Scriptures.

 

[Laura798]

Well PTL,do your feet walk on the earth?

You have not been like a Berean,for you have an unbibical idea twisted to fit your belief rather than one grounded by scripture in Gods words.

I do not have the wrong end of the stick lol,but I have God's inspired word for correct understanding in the light of the Holy Spirit.


BTW,I'm done with this lie and will allow you to believe as you wish but know this I will be praying that no one else is sucked into this lie.

Good day

Gardenias, You've proved my point exactly by your response. Where is your rational argument in favor of your position? You simply support the doctrine that you've been taught, rather than searching the scriptures to see if what we are saying is indeed true. We even did the work for you by posting scriptures--there are many more on the destruction of the wicked. PS Your prayers will be wasted since you yourself are praying for others to believe a lie.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I'm still not sure DW, what you are referring to with the term 'ages of ages'--I think it makes for complication. I didn't see anywhere where the term 'eternal' was in question. I don't see how 'unto the ages' clarifies an argument for eternal torment.

@Laura798 , (re: your Post #219),

I notice the listing you had posted (apparently from the link you posted) does not LIST among those, this specific phrase:

"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (not merely "unto the ages" as you put it ^ )





(21x... including the 3x in verses under present discussion... I listed them.... I suggest you "STUDY THE SCRIPTURES" to see whether these things be so)

L798: "I didn't see anywhere where ..."

I perceive that you mean you "don't see anywhere" AT YOUR LINK.


... but WE'RE talking "SCRIPTURE," here... EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES.

 

[Laura798]

@Laura798 , (re: your Post #219),

I notice the listing you had posted (apparently from the link you posted) does not LIST among those the phrase:

"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (not merely "unto the ages" as you put it ^ )



(21x... including the 3x in verses under present discussion... I listed them)

But DW, what is your point, here trying to use 'unto the ages' instead of eternal?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ how are you thinking the 21x of the occurrences of the phrase "UNTO THE AGES [PLURAL] OF THE AGES [PLURAL]" is used to mean?

I LISTED them all out (ALL 21 VERSES) in Post #196...

It's not hard to look them up IN SCRIPTURE yourself... but you seem to be wanting to avoid doing so, for some reason... Why is that?








And I had asked A SPECIFIC QUESTION about 18 of those verses LISTED in my Post #215
(the QUESTION POSED being in Post #208 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677411 ) :

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677452

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT: the QUESTION POSED being in Post #208 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677411



...why not read that and attempt to ANSWER the QUESTION about these verses (the verses using this specific phrase), already posed.





[ ]



____________

L798: "I didn't see anywhere where ..."

I perceive that you mean you "don't see anywhere" AT YOUR LINK.


... but WE'RE talking "SCRIPTURE," here... EXAMINE THE SCRIPTURES.

 

[Laura798]

^ how are you thinking the 21x of the occurrences of the phrase "UNTO THE AGES [PLURAL] OF THE AGES [PLURAL]" is used to mean?

I LISTED them all out (ALL 21 VERSES) in Post #196...

It's not hard to look them up IN SCRIPTURE yourself... but you seem to be wanting to avoid doing so, for some reason... Why is that?








And I had asked A SPECIFIC QUESTION about 18 of those verses LISTED in my Post #215
(the QUESTION POSED being in Post #208 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677411 ) :

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677452

Goodness me, I can't very well look up something in Scripture if I don't even know what it is I'm looking for--your postings are very confusing, DW

 

[Yahshua]

^ how are you thinking the 21x of the occurrences of the phrase "UNTO THE AGES [PLURAL] OF THE AGES [PLURAL]" is used to mean?

I LISTED them all out (ALL 21 VERSES) in Post #196...

It's not hard to look them in IN SCRIPTURE yourself... but you seem to be wanting to avoid doing so, for some reason... Why is that?

I'm trying to follow your argument too Divine.

Even if the meaning was "unto the ages and ages and ages and ages" my question would still be the same as Laura's.

Your question is:

"Which one of these verses using that phrase MEANS 'temporary / momentary' or the like? "

But as far as I've read, Laura's argument isn't that the "2nd death punishment is temporary", but that it isn't "torture forever". Her argument is that it's "death forever".


...unless I'm misunderstanding too...in which case WE'RE ALL CONFUSED!!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I LISTED all 21 of them in the TOP HALF of my Post #196 -

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677286


which I will C&P here for your convenience (the LIST of ALL 21x):






[quoting from Post #196]


"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" -

(what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),

...found in the following verses:


--Galatians 1:5;
Philippians 4:20;
1 Timothy 1:17;
2 Timothy 4:18;
Hebrews 13:21
("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____");


--1 Peter 4:11;
1 Peter 5:11;
Revelation 1:6
("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____");


--Revelation 1:18;
Revelation 4:9;
Revelation 4:10;
Revelation 5:14;
Revelation 10:6;
Revelation 15:7
("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____");


--Revelation 5:13;
Revelation 7:12;
Revelation 11:15;
Revelation 22:5
("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___");



[which ones of the above look to be saying something like "long-but-limited-time-period"??]



--and used in the 3 verses usually "under question":

Revelation 14:11 [regarding those who receive the mark and worship the beast and his image]; and...

Revelation 19:3 [regarding the judgment of "the great whore"]; and...

Revelation 20:10 [regarding "the devil" and where "the beast and the false prophet" already are/will have been for the 1000 yrs]



[21x TOTAL]


____________





Can you SEE the LIST ^ of ALL 21x this SPECIFIC PHRASE ("UNTO THE AGES [PLURAL] OF THE AGES [PLURAL]") is used, now ^ ??




IF SO, then I ask you to EXAMINE THEM

 

[Laura798]

I LISTED all 21 of them in the TOP HALF of my Post #196 -

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677286


which I will C&P here for your convenience:


[quoting from Post #196]


"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" -

(what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),

...found in the following verses:


--Galatians 1:5;
Philippians 4:20;
1 Timothy 1:17;
2 Timothy 4:18;
Hebrews 13:21
("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____");


--1 Peter 4:11;
1 Peter 5:11;
Revelation 1:6
("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____");


--Revelation 1:18;
Revelation 4:9;
Revelation 4:10;
Revelation 5:14;
Revelation 10:6;
Revelation 15:7
("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____");


--Revelation 5:13;
Revelation 7:12;
Revelation 11:15;
Revelation 22:5
("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___");



[which ones of the above look to be saying something like "long-but-limited-time-period"??]



--and used in the 3 verses usually "under question":

Revelation 14:11 [regarding those who receive the mark and worship the beast and his image]; and...

Revelation 19:3 [regarding the judgment of "the great whore"]; and...

Revelation 20:10 [regarding "the devil" and where "the beast and the false prophet" already are/will have been for the 1000 yrs]



[21x TOTAL]

Again, I've no clue what I am supposed to look up; note too that when the "A" Camp post, they put the entire verse, not just it's location.-No one is going to be looking up 21 verses--then we would have to cut and paste them all into a document to compare them all. That would take a terrific amount of time and effort.

It is important in this context to put both the verse location and the actual verses. I think at this point I'll need to let this one go--this back and forth really hasn't gotten us anywhere. As an example, I picked just one the verses you've listed at random and have no clue how it supports Eternal Torment: "“Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” Phillipians 4:20

 

[Laura798]

^ how are you thinking the 21x of the occurrences of the phrase "UNTO THE AGES [PLURAL] OF THE AGES [PLURAL]" is used to mean?

I LISTED them all out (ALL 21 VERSES) in Post #196...

It's not hard to look them up IN SCRIPTURE yourself... but you seem to be wanting to avoid doing so, for some reason... Why is that?








And I had asked A SPECIFIC QUESTION about 18 of those verses LISTED in my Post #215
(the QUESTION POSED being in Post #208 - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677411 ) :

https://christianchat.com/threads/what-are-you-thoughts-on-annihilation.201874/post-4677452

Additionally,

"The compound usage of aion (age of ages) such as in the Galatians 1:5 usage may approximate a greater period of time even to what we would consider “eternity”.

Care should be used in making such translations from words whose meaning can vary so significantly. Sometimes additional translation help can be derived from associated verb tense and context.

Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,​

Here the word “world” is aion. The idea being that there is a period of time (an “age”) that will end with the events described.

“Ages of ages” could be seen as constituting a collection of these various periods. For example, if God has designated various ages for his plan for earth, then “ages of ages” could be used to describe a period of time reaching over the entire time or even beyond."

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/43927/what-does-ages-of-ages-mean-specifically

 

[Runningman]

A sad understanding of Scripture................Eternal life/eternal damnation........BOTH are eternal.........goodness........

Damnation means judgement. Isn't death an eternal judgment?

 

[Magenta]

Damnation means judgement. Isn't death an eternal judgment?

The second death most certainly is

However, some do not even consider death a punishment

You may recall in another recent thread, one put forth the idea that the "life" the dead get is given by Satan

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Which one of these verses using that phrase MEANS 'temporary / momentary' or the like? "

But as far as I've read, Laura's argument isn't that the "2nd death punishment is temporary", but that it isn't "torture forever". Her argument is that it's "death forever".

...unless I'm misunderstanding too...in which case WE'RE ALL CONFUSED!!

ONE of the 21 verses [and RECALL the "CHRONOLOGY" issues I had raised!] which I listed with this specific phrase, states:


"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to/unto the ages of the ages." - Rev20:10


(there's no "dying" out-from this, for "DEATH" will have been "destroyed [G2673 - make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught; to render inoperative]" at this GRWj point in the chronology]; others are also "cast into," at this GWTj point in the chronology [i.e. same point in time], per v.15)

 

[Magenta]

"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" -

(what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),

Are you attempting to make the point of there being a difference between the usages of age as to whether or not it is pluralized? The plural being in relation to God, and His eternal Self existence, being contrasted against the singular in relation to man, in that forever for man is constrained to a time frame within which God's purpose is carried out?

"Forever"

 

[ewq1938]

Laura you have been presented with plenty of Scriptures to REFUTE you and your unbiblical ideas.

And so far you have shown that you do not understand anything. If you are here to learn something become a student. If you are are to promote false teachings, you will have a hard time presenting nonsense. And if you are here simply to troll, have fun.

None of that applies to her. She is clear and concise and correct in her teachings. This whole "And so far you have shown that you do not understand anything." applies to YOU. You are who needsa to be a student and learn from true teachers and not attempt teach anyone yourself.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Are you attempting to make the point of there being a difference between the usages of age as to whether or not it is pluralized?

NO.

That is NOT MY POINT!




My point is that ALL 21x TIMES THIS SPECIFIC PHRASE IS USED, it always MEANS THE SAME THING:



[quoting from Post #196]


"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" -

(what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),

...found in the following verses:


--Galatians 1:5;
Philippians 4:20;
1 Timothy 1:17;
2 Timothy 4:18;
Hebrews 13:21
("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____");


--1 Peter 4:11;
1 Peter 5:11;
Revelation 1:6
("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____");


--Revelation 1:18;
Revelation 4:9;
Revelation 4:10;
Revelation 5:14;
Revelation 10:6;
Revelation 15:7
("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____");


--Revelation 5:13;
Revelation 7:12;
Revelation 11:15;
Revelation 22:5
("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___");



[which ones of the above look to be saying something like "long-but-limited-time-period"??]



--and used in the 3 verses usually "under question":

Revelation 14:11 [regarding those who receive the mark and worship the beast and his image]; and...

Revelation 19:3 [regarding the judgment of "the great whore"]; and...

Revelation 20:10 [regarding "the devil" and where "the beast and the false prophet" already are/will have been for the 1000 yrs]



[21x TOTAL]




____________





[quoting my most recent post...]

ONE of the 21 verses [and RECALL the "CHRONOLOGY" issues I had raised!] which I listed with this specific phrase, states:


"And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to/unto the ages of the ages." - Rev20:10

(there's no "dying" out-from this, for "DEATH" will have been "destroyed [G2673 - make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught; to render inoperative]" at this GRWj point in the chronology]; others are also "cast into," at this GWTj point in the chronology [i.e. same point in time], per v.15)

 

[ewq1938]

Goodness me, I can't very well look up something in Scripture if I don't even know what it is I'm looking for--your postings are very confusing, DW

Confusion is /always/ confusing and& might as well type it (ON a KEYboard)<------- out in a confusing (way]-- to double down [TWO 2x}} on confusion (see post 191!)!

 

[Runningman]

the living spirit in man is eternal the flesh is not at a persons death the spirit returns to God who gave the spirit of life and the body returns To The dust it was created from it’s the exact opposite of creation a body is made of dust the. The spirit gives the body life

the spirit parts the body at death and the body returns to dust while the persons living spirit goes to Christ for judgement.


spirit is eternal so there’s a place with the lord when we die for our spirit or there is a place with Satan and his family when we die

I think your theology hinges delicately on the condition that the spirit of a man cannot die. This single point alone, that the spirit of man cannot die under any circumstances, if proven to be untrue, would mean that the doctrine of eternal torment is debunked.

Let's look at what the Bible says about spiritual death, then.

Genesis 2:17
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

1 Corinthians 15:22
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:1
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

Ephesians 2:5
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

And there's many more. Spiritual life, a born again spirit, only comes through Christ. I'm sure we agree there.