Understanding the Trinity as a doctrine.
- Thread starter justbyfaith
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
This was form post #119:
"When Jesus says, "I and the Father are one" He is referring to the fact that the Father and the Son are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6)."
Why isn't anybody using that argument as evidence for the trinity anymore? Because with that logic, that would mean Jesus want's us to be the "same God" as them....
John 17:11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:20-21
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
"When Jesus says, "I and the Father are one" He is referring to the fact that the Father and the Son are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6)."
Why isn't anybody using that argument as evidence for the trinity anymore? Because with that logic, that would mean Jesus want's us to be the "same God" as them....
John 17:11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:20-21
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
I don't know what to tell you, sorry. There are a few of us that don't subscribe to the trinity doctrine at all.... You have the guy who started the thread (that you responded to about Isa 45:11)... and you have others that believe in the trinity, but don't agree with his interpretation of it (you will find these disagreements on the first few pages).
Very well. In response to #360.
The phrase is a greek translation from aramaic/hebrew and in turn, a translation from greek to english. The significance of the tense of the phrase is not self-evident. All I see is Jesus admitting to be older than Abraham and not as the God of Abraham. (see Matt 26:63 below).
As to the intentions to stone Jesus, at the trial before the sanhedrin.
(Matt. 26:63) "But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God."
They were stoning Jesus as Christ not as Deity.
The phrase is a greek translation from aramaic/hebrew and in turn, a translation from greek to english. The significance of the tense of the phrase is not self-evident. All I see is Jesus admitting to be older than Abraham and not as the God of Abraham. (see Matt 26:63 below).
As to the intentions to stone Jesus, at the trial before the sanhedrin.
(Matt. 26:63) "But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God."
They were stoning Jesus as Christ not as Deity.
-
1
- Show all
Precious friend, you must have overlooked These Relevant Scriptures?:
Joh_5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, Making Himself equal with God. (cp John 1:1-3)
+
Php_2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
In addition, Scripture Has Over 150 Reasons The LORD JESUS CHRIST Is God;
{The 1st THIRTEEN are} here: The Case FOR The Triune GodHead!
(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans – Philemon}, For ALL, today?)
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God’s Simple Will!
Joh_5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father, Making Himself equal with God. (cp John 1:1-3)
+
Php_2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
In addition, Scripture Has Over 150 Reasons The LORD JESUS CHRIST Is God;
{The 1st THIRTEEN are} here: The Case FOR The Triune GodHead!
(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:3-9; Ephesians 3:9 =
Grace/Mystery fellowship {Romans – Philemon}, For ALL, today?)
Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God’s Simple Will!
-
1
- Show all
In John 5:18 - The word "break" is not the same word as "transgress" or violate. It means "to loosen". The Messiah did not sin.... aka "break" the law of his Father.... what he did was "loosened" man's law (doctrines of men) that the Jews added on to the law of God.
In Phi 2:6 - This is not speaking of The Most High God..... God the Father. This is speaking of elohim... hence why the verse says the "form of God". This is speaking of the existence outside of the body.... which we all have within us:
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
So, you believe that God would allow the translation of what was originally written to mislead us?
I am of the opinion that God is both Omnipotent and loving and sovereign.
Because He is Omnipotent and sovereign, He is able to preserve His intended meaning and perhaps even to improve upon it when the scriptures were translated for us into the kjv. For He knew that the majority would subscribe to the kjv and that the kjv would be contended for in the kjv-only controversy, that it is inspired and inerrant. So, a translation that is considered to be inspired and inerrant above other translations, you believe that God would allow that translation to contain error as concerning doctrine?.
Because He is loving, I don't believe that He would.
Concerning Matthew 26:63, you need to realize that in the eyes of the scribes and Pharisees, Jesus claiming to be the Son of God meant that He was claiming to be "the everlasting Father"; for they would have known Isaiah 9:6 very well; and in those days there wasn't any teaching given to say that "The everlasting Father" didn't mean just that.
I am of the opinion that God is both Omnipotent and loving and sovereign.
Because He is Omnipotent and sovereign, He is able to preserve His intended meaning and perhaps even to improve upon it when the scriptures were translated for us into the kjv. For He knew that the majority would subscribe to the kjv and that the kjv would be contended for in the kjv-only controversy, that it is inspired and inerrant. So, a translation that is considered to be inspired and inerrant above other translations, you believe that God would allow that translation to contain error as concerning doctrine?.
Because He is loving, I don't believe that He would.
Concerning Matthew 26:63, you need to realize that in the eyes of the scribes and Pharisees, Jesus claiming to be the Son of God meant that He was claiming to be "the everlasting Father"; for they would have known Isaiah 9:6 very well; and in those days there wasn't any teaching given to say that "The everlasting Father" didn't mean just that.
Extrapolating Jesus's "equal" authority on earth as co-equal nature is a stretch. In the subsequent verse John 5:19, Jesus explains His Status and Power vis-a-vis the Deity. Consider Gen. 44:18 Joseph's authority is equal to the pharaoh, but not of the same substance.
(Berean Study Bible)
Then Judah approached Joseph and said, “Sir, please let your servant speak personally to my lord. Do not be angry with your servant, for you are equal to Pharaoh himself."
Php 2:6 says Jesus never intimated equality with God.
Berean Study Bible "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,"
Which is consistent with a servants deference. Php 2:7. The word μορφῇ means outward appearance not substance. What is the form of Invisible God? His acts and works.
The idea of homoousios has greek pedigree. (https://journeyonline.com.au/features/homoousios-a-100-year-debate/)
"In 264-268 the Synods of Antioch condemned the term ‘homoousios’ (same substance) because of its connections with Greek philosophy. They were also concerned that the concept, taken to extremes, could lead to a perception of Jesus that overlooked his humanity."
As the trinity is not explicitly explained in the bible, an extrabiblical axiom is required. For me that seals the deal. I will certainly read your link, though. Thank you.
(Berean Study Bible)
Then Judah approached Joseph and said, “Sir, please let your servant speak personally to my lord. Do not be angry with your servant, for you are equal to Pharaoh himself."
Php 2:6 says Jesus never intimated equality with God.
Berean Study Bible "Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,"
Which is consistent with a servants deference. Php 2:7. The word μορφῇ means outward appearance not substance. What is the form of Invisible God? His acts and works.
The idea of homoousios has greek pedigree. (https://journeyonline.com.au/features/homoousios-a-100-year-debate/)
"In 264-268 the Synods of Antioch condemned the term ‘homoousios’ (same substance) because of its connections with Greek philosophy. They were also concerned that the concept, taken to extremes, could lead to a perception of Jesus that overlooked his humanity."
As the trinity is not explicitly explained in the bible, an extrabiblical axiom is required. For me that seals the deal. I will certainly read your link, though. Thank you.
-
1
- Show all
LI, we will proceed to use weapons of warfare that are not carnal but are mighty in God for the pulling down of strongholds.
My prayer to the Lord is that the Holy Spirit will convict you of judgment as you read the following scriptures.
Exo 3:14, And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Jhn 8:58, Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Jesus claimed to be the great I AM of the burning bush passage.
The scribes and Pharisees understood His claim:
Jhn 8:59, Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Jhn 10:31, Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jhn 10:32, Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Jhn 10:33, The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Previous to that, Jesus had made the claim that their believing in His claim to Deity would be essential to salvation (but it didn't yet register in their minds)
Jhn 8:24, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
The "he" is in italics which means that Jesus was again using an "I AM" statement.
But even if He wasn't, it may be clear to those who have illumination that by saying, "I am He" he was referring to the Father:
Jhn 8:27, They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
My prayer to the Lord is that the Holy Spirit will convict you of judgment as you read the following scriptures.
Exo 3:14, And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Jhn 8:58, Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Jesus claimed to be the great I AM of the burning bush passage.
The scribes and Pharisees understood His claim:
Jhn 8:59, Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Jhn 10:31, Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jhn 10:32, Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Jhn 10:33, The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Previous to that, Jesus had made the claim that their believing in His claim to Deity would be essential to salvation (but it didn't yet register in their minds)
Jhn 8:24, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
The "he" is in italics which means that Jesus was again using an "I AM" statement.
But even if He wasn't, it may be clear to those who have illumination that by saying, "I am He" he was referring to the Father:
Jhn 8:27, They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
-
1
- Show all
What is written in the Scriptures does not mislead, only the doctrines of men.
The bible is inerrant, but the interpretations are rife full of inconsistencies.
The bible and it subsequent copies are full of variances. From memory, for ~100000 verses, there are ~500000 variances. Does it change, meaning of the bible? No, not really.
Once again, the error is not the bible, just the interpretation of it. But, you should not mention the Johannine Comma in your arguments.
My beliefs are not shaped by pharisees who tried to kill my master. They are shaped by the Holy Spirit as manifested in the Scriptures and in Christians who explain and teach plainly. As for Isaiah 9:6, "Father of Eternity" is a name of Jesus, not a comment of Jesus as God. See below
as per "Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges" (biblehub),
his name shall be called] The name of the Messiah consists of a series of honorific titles,...
Wonderful, Counseller] Since each of the other names is compounded of two words, these expressions are also to be taken together as forming a single designation—Wonder-Counseller....
The mighty God] (’êl Gibbôr) either “God-like Hero” or Hero-God...
The everlasting Father] lit. Father of Eternity. The translation “Father of booty” ...
The bible is inerrant, but the interpretations are rife full of inconsistencies.
The bible and it subsequent copies are full of variances. From memory, for ~100000 verses, there are ~500000 variances. Does it change, meaning of the bible? No, not really.
Once again, the error is not the bible, just the interpretation of it. But, you should not mention the Johannine Comma in your arguments.
My beliefs are not shaped by pharisees who tried to kill my master. They are shaped by the Holy Spirit as manifested in the Scriptures and in Christians who explain and teach plainly. As for Isaiah 9:6, "Father of Eternity" is a name of Jesus, not a comment of Jesus as God. See below
as per "Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges" (biblehub),
his name shall be called] The name of the Messiah consists of a series of honorific titles,...
Wonderful, Counseller] Since each of the other names is compounded of two words, these expressions are also to be taken together as forming a single designation—Wonder-Counseller....
The mighty God] (’êl Gibbôr) either “God-like Hero” or Hero-God...
The everlasting Father] lit. Father of Eternity. The translation “Father of booty” ...
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Exo 3 is when Moses was hmming and hawing about going to egypt asking what should he say. The classic line "I AM THAT I AM" that's it that's all.
Basing my beliefs on people who want to kill my master is not a good thing. Judas Iscariot anyone?
Berean Study Bible John 8:26
“I have much to say about you and much to judge. But the One who sent Me is truthful, and what I have heard from Him, I tell the world.”
Yes, Jesus was literally talking about the Father, not saying He is God.
Basing my beliefs on people who want to kill my master is not a good thing. Judas Iscariot anyone?
Berean Study Bible John 8:26
“I have much to say about you and much to judge. But the One who sent Me is truthful, and what I have heard from Him, I tell the world.”
Yes, Jesus was literally talking about the Father, not saying He is God.
-
1
- Show all