Will the real second Pentecost please stand up

[Evmur]

Wesley’s Journal Entries

"Mr. Hall, Kinchin, Ingham, Whitefield, Lane, with about sixty of our brethren. About three in the morning, as we were continuing in instant prayer, the power of God came mightily upon us, insomuch that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground. As soon as we were recovered a little from that awe and amazement at the presence of his Majesty, we broke out with one voice, `We praise thee, O God; we acknowledge thee to be the Lord."
(John Wesley's Journal, Jan. 1, 1739)

"Many more were brought to the birth. All were in floods of tears, cried, prayed, roared aloud, all of them lying on the ground." (John Wesley's Journal, July 28, 1762)

"When I began to pray, the flame broke out. Many cried aloud, many sank to the ground, many trembled exceedingly." (John Wesley's Journal, September 8, 1784)

^
It would appear that John Wesley was a Holy Roller Baptist/Wesleyan/Methodist that Spoke in Tongues, FELL to the ground, Danced in the Spirit, even claims FLAMES broke out as he began Praying!

Since these EXAMPLES took place from 1739 - 1784, wouldn't John Wesley's Experiences proceed the 1900 and 1901 Dates?

George Fox ministered healing and prophecy 100 years before Wesley too ... The Holy Spirit will always demonstrate truth but whether He demonstrates or not He is present.

 

[Evmur]

I can understand Pentecostals wanting to distance themselves from Parham and Seymour. But unfortunately history can't be erased. Even if Parham and Seymour are erased from Pentecostal history that doesn't negate the fact that Pentecostalism is based on lies from start to finish. We're supposed to believe that a second Pentecost arrived in 1901; or was it 1900; or before that. If the so-called second Pentecost is a fraud, where does that leave Pentecostalism?

Seymour is cited often. But without Parham there would be no Seymour; and with Frank Sanford there would be no Parham. Seymour's so-called revival was really mass confusion. He had to call on Parham at one point because the situation was totally out of control. When Parham witnessed what was going on he was appalled. They were "chattering, jabbering, speaking in no language at all," according to Parham. He actually started a new group and tried to draw people away from Seymour. Personally, I believe Azusa St. is probably where the idea of "prayer languages" originated. By citing Azusa St. as Pentecostalism's birthplace, they can distance themselves from Parham who thoroughly believe tongues were languages.

This is a good video that explores newspaper articles from the Azusa St. period and shows what Azusa St. was in reality; at least as reported by the neighbors and the papers.

What apalled Parham who was a segregationist was the fact that blacks and whites were worshipping together. Pentecostalism as an experience relies only upon personal experience, not upon men and their doctrines and quarrels.

There is a little thing called the witness, The Holy Spirit will bear witness to a true work ... I hear preachers today and read articles to which I sense no witness. And nothing the Holy Spirit does disagrees with His word.

Get your eyes off of men.

 

[Evmur]

there is little faith left in the world so the gifts of the spirit are hard to see and believe.

... in the western world

 

[Evmur]

And this is why the love of most becomes cold: the people refuse to accept the gifts of the Spirit.

The standard of love, for believers, was demonstrated by Christ: He only did what He saw the Father doing. Jesus said that we are to love as He loved. So the standard of love is the same for Christ and man: that we only do what we see the Father doing. This requires revelation and understanding: we can only see what the Father is doing by seeing what the Father is doing. God is spirit, so this cannot mean that we are to see with our natural eyes. We are to see with the eyes of our spirit, this is called revelation. We also cannot say "Well, understand the Bible so that you can copy God". While we can gain much from studying the Bible, we cannot see what our Father is doing in the moment. That only comes by revelation. Otherwise, we will make exhaustive lists of "Christian rules" (like Calvin) and create another form of law.

Any way, this is why the love of most is cold: they deny the power of the Spirit. Without the Spirit men cannot love as Christ loved. They can love like they think they should love but their direction will be based upon tradition and principles, not on the leading of the Spirit. By denying the power of the Spirit they disqualify themselves to the end that Christ will never know them.

Aaron56

it is an awesome thing when the church fights against the Holy Ghost.

 

[wattie]

Just want to comment on a couple of things.

First that when miracles signs and wonders were completed, most times it wasnt the level of faith an individual had that allowed it to happen. It was God acting thru others and sometimes it was the result of fervent faith but mostly it was God making a point of teaching or empowering for a particular purpose.

The signs and wonders etc.. weren't dependent on level of faith.

An external act of God rather than an internal expression of faith most of the time.

The other point is that those who believe faith hope and love are the remaining gifts of the Holy Spirit aren't denying the Holy Spirits power but honoring the fact that God hasn't always worked the same way all through history.

For eg... the Old covenant had been done away with.

God promised never to flood the world completely again.

There are many customs in the bible times that we no longer hold to.

Etc etc...

The position of the miraculous gifts ceasing is saying the Holy Spirit still empowers, guides, teaches, directs, rebukes, admonishes etc.. but just has finished with using the operation of using the gifts in the early churches.

Not a denial of power but an honoring of Gods different ways of dealings with people.

 

[Evmur]

Just want to comment on a couple of things.

First that when miracles signs and wonders were completed, most times it wasnt the level of faith an individual had that allowed it to happen. It was God acting thru others and sometimes it was the result of fervent faith but mostly it was God making a point of teaching or empowering for a particular purpose.

The signs and wonders etc.. weren't dependent on level of faith.

An external act of God rather than an internal expression of faith most of the time.

The other point is that those who believe faith hope and love are the remaining gifts of the Holy Spirit aren't denying the Holy Spirits power but honoring the fact that God hasn't always worked the same way all through history.

For eg... the Old covenant had been done away with.

God promised never to flood the world completely again.

There are many customs in the bible times that we no longer hold to.

Etc etc...

The position of the miraculous gifts ceasing is saying the Holy Spirit still empowers, guides, teaches, directs, rebukes, admonishes etc.. but just has finished with using the operation of using the gifts in the early churches.

Not a denial of power but an honoring of Gods different ways of dealings with people.

God still does signs and wonders and miracles

 

[Evmur]

I can understand Pentecostals wanting to distance themselves from Parham and Seymour. But unfortunately history can't be erased. Even if Parham and Seymour are erased from Pentecostal history that doesn't negate the fact that Pentecostalism is based on lies from start to finish. We're supposed to believe that a second Pentecost arrived in 1901; or was it 1900; or before that. If the so-called second Pentecost is a fraud, where does that leave Pentecostalism?

Seymour is cited often. But without Parham there would be no Seymour; and with Frank Sanford there would be no Parham. Seymour's so-called revival was really mass confusion. He had to call on Parham at one point because the situation was totally out of control. When Parham witnessed what was going on he was appalled. They were "chattering, jabbering, speaking in no language at all," according to Parham. He actually started a new group and tried to draw people away from Seymour. Personally, I believe Azusa St. is probably where the idea of "prayer languages" originated. By citing Azusa St. as Pentecostalism's birthplace, they can distance themselves from Parham who thoroughly believe tongues were languages.

This is a good video that explores newspaper articles from the Azusa St. period and shows what Azusa St. was in reality; at least as reported by the neighbors and the papers.

Hey I made mistakes, huge mistakes that had huge consequences. So did Peter.

There is a world of rueful wisdom in James
"let not many of you become teachers, we ALL make many mistakes .... "

 

[ResidentAlien]

What apalled Parham who was a segregationist was the fact that blacks and whites were worshipping together.

That was part of it. He was also disturbed by the so-called tongues that were being spoken and the other frenetic activity. Parham believed tongues were languages, not howling, groaning, shrieking and all the other wild stuff that was going on. Azusa wasn't at all like the portrait that's been painted by charismatic "historians."

Pentecostalism as an experience relies only upon personal experience, not upon men and their doctrines and quarrels.

Bingo. Totally agree. The charismatic experience is more important that doctrine.

There is a little thing called the witness, The Holy Spirit will bear witness to a true work ... I hear preachers today and read articles to which I sense no witness. And nothing the Holy Spirit does disagrees with His word.

This sums it up perfectly; but you're not saying what you really mean. If I may translate: the Holy Spirit takes priority over God's word. If the "Spirit" gives a new revelation, God's word has to be reexamined to make room for the new "revelation."

 

[AandW]

George Fox ministered healing and prophecy 100 years before Wesley too ... The Holy Spirit will always demonstrate truth but whether He demonstrates or not He is present.

Amen!

 

[ResidentAlien]

Just want to comment on a couple of things.

First that when miracles signs and wonders were completed, most times it wasnt the level of faith an individual had that allowed it to happen. It was God acting thru others and sometimes it was the result of fervent faith but mostly it was God making a point of teaching or empowering for a particular purpose.

The signs and wonders etc.. weren't dependent on level of faith.

An external act of God rather than an internal expression of faith most of the time.

This is a very good point. I've been looking for a way to say something along these lines but I couldn't say it better. Sometimes Jesus said your faith has healed you, or the like; but in many cases the healed person's faith had nothing to do with it.

I find it strange that if a modern-day faith healer fails to heal someone it's always blamed on the sick person's lack of faith, not the "healer." Nowadays they use a disclaimer right up front to prevent being charged with practicing medicine without a license: "I don't heal anyone, God does." Okay, so if God does the healing, why do I need the faith healer?

 

[ResidentAlien]

Hey I made mistakes, huge mistakes that had huge consequences. So did Peter.

There is a world of rueful wisdom in James
"let not many of you become teachers, we ALL make many mistakes .... "

If I state historical facts, how is that teaching God's word? I don't claim to be a teacher of the word; I have opinions like everyone else here. I find it curious that you have an objection to straightforward historical facts.

 

[DavidTree]

Are believers, today, given gifts of power through the Holy Spirit?

YES/AFFIRMATIVE/DEFINITELY/ABSOLUTELY/MUST HAVE/BRIDE GIFTS/SHOWERED FROM ABOVE

But not all are Baptized in the Holy Spirit

And the Holy Spirit is HE who brings forth our New Birth in us

 

[Pilgrimshope]

YES/AFFIRMATIVE/DEFINITELY/ABSOLUTELY/MUST HAVE/BRIDE GIFTS/SHOWERED FROM ABOVE

But not all are Baptized in the Holy Spirit

And the Holy Spirit is HE who brings forth our New Birth in us

remember wherever the people lack faith they don’t see the mighty works

“And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭6:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:58‬ ‭

Jesus is able in every circumstance to work through and for us but a lack of faith stifles the gospel because it’s 100 percent about hearing and believing

“This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭

remember they hadn’t received the Holy Spirit until Paul told them about it because they hadn’t heard there was such a thing as the Holy Spirit. Faith requires us to Hear and believe the gospel

 

[DavidTree]

remember wherever the people lack faith they don’t see the mighty works

“And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭6:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:58‬ ‭

Jesus is able in every circumstance to work through and for us but a lack of faith stifles the gospel because it’s 100 percent about hearing and believing

“This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭

remember they hadn’t received the Holy Spirit until Paul told them about it because they hadn’t heard there was such a thing as the Holy Spirit. Faith requires us to Hear and believe the gospel

AMEN and i have known this for many a years and share with many -
unbelief causes the Dove to fly right over their head because there is no resting place for Him in unbelief

Notice what the Scripture says: Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove and resting on Him

The Holy Spirit comes as Dove - not a force - non threatening - and will only descend upon the person who is willing to receive Him.

When it happens - REST

note: if you see HS7 in my posts = this is my abbreviation for Holy Spirit

 

[Icedaisey]

Charles Fox Parham claimed in 1901 that the outpouring of the "Holy Spirit" at his Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas, was the first outpouring of the gifts of the Spirit since the first Pentecost.

However, early in 1900, Frank Sandford was claiming the same thing had happened at his Shiloh community in Maine. In a Bangor Daily News article dated January 8, 1900, Sandford claims that the gifts of prophecy and tongues had been given to 120 people at Shiloh.

View attachment 231681

It's known that Parham had visited Sandford at Shiloh in 1900 after hearing of the outbreak there. If Parham's "outpouring" wasn't the first, as he claimed, then we have a couple of very serious problems: 1) Parham was a liar; 2) The religion claiming to trace its origins to Parham is based on a lie. Both of these are fairly disturbing.

The full video from which I grabbed this image is below.

Marketing his church and snake oil salesman ship.

Any self identified pastor who lies about the Holy Spirit blossoming from within their congregation, is not a preacher. They're a fraud. And likely an atheist. Because a Christian would never do such a thing.

The believer is already indwelt by the Holy Spirit and thus the HS being present already, He need not descend. Though of course He can. Whereas the HS can and will blossom, for lack of a better word, when all HS indwelt people are gathered.

Frauds are a bane to the image of the faithful. Sad.

 

[Blade]

If one doubts.. you have nothing to worry about you will never see the gifts. God will never go against your will. Those gifts are working every day in this world..just head on over to some 3rd world nation where dead rise blind see on and on. Seen it all my life. I say small yet HUGE AWESOME when I wanted prayer for the BIG I mean BIG wart on my palm. He prayed then said something strange "and lord for the warts between his toes". I never even told my mom about those. A week later all were gone and never came back. Woman front of Church BLIND hundreds there. He prays.. she starts to cry scream shout... NO ONE can ever tell her "gifts are gone". Tongues, word of knowledge on and on.

Unwise to make fun of the holy Spirit of those He used. Just because one does not believe gives on no right to speak against the holy Spirit. Well I say that because "faith in His name" Peter and John "why look at us as if by our power". Its always God, holy Spirit. Even if I disagree with one of those I never speak negative about them unless I forget lol. Pray for them.

 

[rayzor]

If one doubts.. you have nothing to worry about you will never see the gifts. God will never go against your will. Those gifts are working every day in this world..just head on over to some 3rd world nation where dead rise blind see on and on. Seen it all my life. I say small yet HUGE AWESOME when I wanted prayer for the BIG I mean BIG wart on my palm. He prayed then said something strange "and lord for the warts between his toes". I never even told my mom about those. A week later all were gone and never came back. Woman front of Church BLIND hundreds there. He prays.. she starts to cry scream shout... NO ONE can ever tell her "gifts are gone". Tongues, word of knowledge on and on.

Unwise to make fun of the holy Spirit of those He used. Just because one does not believe gives on no right to speak against the holy Spirit. Well I say that because "faith in His name" Peter and John "why look at us as if by our power". Its always God, holy Spirit. Even if I disagree with one of those I never speak negative about them unless I forget lol. Pray for them.

no one is speaking against the holy gost Blade.They speak against what you said maybe.I did not even read the post and i could tell you that.To be a honest christian, one should not lie to one self.They may be be wrong about what they said. but you still have to be honest about your assessment of what they said.Your verbally threaten them via that they where going against god. because they hurt your feelings and that's based in pride.

 

[Evmur]

If I state historical facts, how is that teaching God's word? I don't claim to be a teacher of the word; I have opinions like everyone else here. I find it curious that you have an objection to straightforward historical facts.

nah ... you've got a problem

 

[ResidentAlien]

nah ... you've got a problem

If telling the truth is a problem then fine, I've got a problem.

 

[Evmur]

That was part of it. He was also disturbed by the so-called tongues that were being spoken and the other frenetic activity. Parham believed tongues were languages, not howling, groaning, shrieking and all the other wild stuff that was going on. Azusa wasn't at all like the portrait that's been painted by charismatic "historians."



Bingo. Totally agree. The charismatic experience is more important that doctrine.



This sums it up perfectly; but you're not saying what you really mean. If I may translate: the Holy Spirit takes priority over God's word. If the "Spirit" gives a new revelation, God's word has to be reexamined to make room for the new "revelation."

Were you there? Parham was but he was there with a criticising spirit. Other folks were there who went away and established works all over the world. You know very well that Pentecostal churches are still growing at phenomenal rates all over the world.

It didn't all start at Asuza St. You've got to get over this looking at men. We don't hero worship, we know men are not perfect just as we are not perfect The baptism of the Holy Spirit does not make anyone perfect.

But we have a testimony and the Holy Spirit bears witness to it.

I insist that experience must accord with scripture, not the other way about.