Will the real second Pentecost please stand up

ResidentAlien · Oct 4, 2021

Charles Fox Parham claimed in 1901 that the outpouring of the "Holy Spirit" at his Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas, was the first outpouring of the gifts of the Spirit since the first Pentecost.

However, early in 1900, Frank Sandford was claiming the same thing had happened at his Shiloh community in Maine. In a Bangor Daily News article dated January 8, 1900, Sandford claims that the gifts of prophecy and tongues had been given to 120 people at Shiloh.

It's known that Parham had visited Sandford at Shiloh in 1900 after hearing of the outbreak there. If Parham's "outpouring" wasn't the first, as he claimed, then we have a couple of very serious problems: 1) Parham was a liar; 2) The religion claiming to trace its origins to Parham is based on a lie. Both of these are fairly disturbing.

The full video from which I grabbed this image is below.

p_rehbein · Oct 4, 2021

Such claims are discounted by me. They are akin to the claims made by that guy who found the golden tablets under a tree that gave birth to Mormonism......

just me I suspect, but............

Subhumanoidal · Oct 4, 2021

Lots of people claim grandiose things in their life or work. In some way that reflects on them personally. Usually those people making such claims aren't honest. Because if their claims were true Other people would be saying it for them. There would be no need for shameless self promotion.

Gideon300 · Oct 4, 2021

ResidentAlien said:

The Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost. That was it. There is no need for another outpouring because the Holy Spirit has been given. It is no more necessary for the Holy Spirit to be poured out than for the Lord Jesus to die and rise again.

The danger of these supposed outpourings is that they are often a counterfeit. The Azusa Street "revival" may have restored the truth of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but there was a great deal that was false also. The Welsh revival around the same time was an amazing work of God, but Satan infiltrated that as well. It is a deception to imagine that Satan cannot interfere with revivals or even counterfeit revival totally.

Revelation is the unveiling of what God has already done in Christ for us. The Holy Spirit was given to Lord Jesus when He was exalted. He gave the Holy Spirit to us. All we have to do is ask.

Aaron56 · Oct 4, 2021

Are believers, today, given gifts of power through the Holy Spirit?

wattie · Oct 4, 2021

Aaron56 said:

Faith hope and love 😎

AandW · Oct 4, 2021

Wesley’s Journal Entries

"Mr. Hall, Kinchin, Ingham, Whitefield, Lane, with about sixty of our brethren. About three in the morning, as we were continuing in instant prayer, the power of God came mightily upon us, insomuch that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground. As soon as we were recovered a little from that awe and amazement at the presence of his Majesty, we broke out with one voice, `We praise thee, O God; we acknowledge thee to be the Lord."
(John Wesley's Journal, Jan. 1, 1739)

"Many more were brought to the birth. All were in floods of tears, cried, prayed, roared aloud, all of them lying on the ground." (John Wesley's Journal, July 28, 1762)

"When I began to pray, the flame broke out. Many cried aloud, many sank to the ground, many trembled exceedingly." (John Wesley's Journal, September 8, 1784)

^
It would appear that John Wesley was a Holy Roller Baptist/Wesleyan/Methodist that Spoke in Tongues, FELL to the ground, Danced in the Spirit, even claims FLAMES broke out as he began Praying!

Since these EXAMPLES took place from 1739 - 1784, wouldn't John Wesley's Experiences proceed the 1900 and 1901 Dates?

wattie · Oct 5, 2021

AandW said:

Wesley’s Journal Entries

"Mr. Hall, Kinchin, Ingham, Whitefield, Lane, with about sixty of our brethren. About three in the morning, as we were continuing in instant prayer, the power of God came mightily upon us, insomuch that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground. As soon as we were recovered a little from that awe and amazement at the presence of his Majesty, we broke out with one voice, `We praise thee, O God; we acknowledge thee to be the Lord."
(John Wesley's Journal, Jan. 1, 1739)

"Many more were brought to the birth. All were in floods of tears, cried, prayed, roared aloud, all of them lying on the ground." (John Wesley's Journal, July 28, 1762)

"When I began to pray, the flame broke out. Many cried aloud, many sank to the ground, many trembled exceedingly." (John Wesley's Journal, September 8, 1784)

^
It would appear that John Wesley was a Holy Roller Baptist/Wesleyan/Methodist that Spoke in Tongues, FELL to the ground, Danced in the Spirit, even claims FLAMES broke out as he began Praying!

Since these EXAMPLES took place from 1739 - 1784, wouldn't John Wesley's Experiences proceed the 1900 and 1901 Dates?

Where is the dancing in the Spirit and speaking in tongues in these journal entries?

Gideon300 · Oct 5, 2021

Aaron56 said:

Yes. The Holy Spirit has been poured out and has never gone away. Believer's attitudes change, the Holy Spirit does not. As John Wesley said, the lack of the power of the Holy Spirit reflects on the condition of the church, not on some kind of dispensational theology.

Gideon300 · Oct 5, 2021

wattie said:

Gideon300 · Oct 5, 2021

AandW said:

Wesley’s Journal Entries

"Mr. Hall, Kinchin, Ingham, Whitefield, Lane, with about sixty of our brethren. About three in the morning, as we were continuing in instant prayer, the power of God came mightily upon us, insomuch that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground. As soon as we were recovered a little from that awe and amazement at the presence of his Majesty, we broke out with one voice, `We praise thee, O God; we acknowledge thee to be the Lord."
(John Wesley's Journal, Jan. 1, 1739)

"Many more were brought to the birth. All were in floods of tears, cried, prayed, roared aloud, all of them lying on the ground." (John Wesley's Journal, July 28, 1762)

"When I began to pray, the flame broke out. Many cried aloud, many sank to the ground, many trembled exceedingly." (John Wesley's Journal, September 8, 1784)

^
It would appear that John Wesley was a Holy Roller Baptist/Wesleyan/Methodist that Spoke in Tongues, FELL to the ground, Danced in the Spirit, even claims FLAMES broke out as he began Praying!

Since these EXAMPLES took place from 1739 - 1784, wouldn't John Wesley's Experiences proceed the 1900 and 1901 Dates?

Absolutely. The Wesleys preached the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and Charles wrote hymns about it.

Evmur · Oct 5, 2021

William Seymour is the recognised leader of the work at Asuza St. Parham was very early on sidelined. Nobody claims either Seymour or Parham as their spiritual leaders today.

pottersclay · Oct 5, 2021

There are two distinct tongues that are mentioned in the new testament. Many confuse the upper room event with the gift of tongues.
Paul talks on both matters.
The upper room event was for a witness to the jews for the jews. Remember most if not all in the upper room were jews in the first church gathering.
The gift of tongues is to edify the body in prayer and prophecy. Witnessed by interpretation.
Also discribe as a private prayer utterance as the Holy Spirit leads.
One has nothing to do with the other but are by the same Spirit....Holy spirit.

What's really interesting and sadly missed in the upper room event is the pentecostal (as we call it) offering.
2 loaves of bread is offered with all sorts of grain and wheat mixed in representing all become one in Christ Jesus. Gentile and jew...slave and rich, male and female.

The Lord said that all nations,kindred ,and tongue shall know of him.

ResidentAlien · Oct 5, 2021

AandW said:

Wesley’s Journal Entries

"Mr. Hall, Kinchin, Ingham, Whitefield, Lane, with about sixty of our brethren. About three in the morning, as we were continuing in instant prayer, the power of God came mightily upon us, insomuch that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground. As soon as we were recovered a little from that awe and amazement at the presence of his Majesty, we broke out with one voice, `We praise thee, O God; we acknowledge thee to be the Lord."
(John Wesley's Journal, Jan. 1, 1739)

"Many more were brought to the birth. All were in floods of tears, cried, prayed, roared aloud, all of them lying on the ground." (John Wesley's Journal, July 28, 1762)

"When I began to pray, the flame broke out. Many cried aloud, many sank to the ground, many trembled exceedingly." (John Wesley's Journal, September 8, 1784)

^
It would appear that John Wesley was a Holy Roller Baptist/Wesleyan/Methodist that Spoke in Tongues, FELL to the ground, Danced in the Spirit, even claims FLAMES broke out as he began Praying!

Since these EXAMPLES took place from 1739 - 1784, wouldn't John Wesley's Experiences proceed the 1900 and 1901 Dates?

Yes. There were many others before 1900 and 1901.

ResidentAlien · Oct 5, 2021

I can understand Pentecostals wanting to distance themselves from Parham and Seymour. But unfortunately history can't be erased. Even if Parham and Seymour are erased from Pentecostal history that doesn't negate the fact that Pentecostalism is based on lies from start to finish. We're supposed to believe that a second Pentecost arrived in 1901; or was it 1900; or before that. If the so-called second Pentecost is a fraud, where does that leave Pentecostalism?

Seymour is cited often. But without Parham there would be no Seymour; and with Frank Sanford there would be no Parham. Seymour's so-called revival was really mass confusion. He had to call on Parham at one point because the situation was totally out of control. When Parham witnessed what was going on he was appalled. They were "chattering, jabbering, speaking in no language at all," according to Parham. He actually started a new group and tried to draw people away from Seymour. Personally, I believe Azusa St. is probably where the idea of "prayer languages" originated. By citing Azusa St. as Pentecostalism's birthplace, they can distance themselves from Parham who thoroughly believe tongues were languages.

This is a good video that explores newspaper articles from the Azusa St. period and shows what Azusa St. was in reality; at least as reported by the neighbors and the papers.

AandW · Oct 5, 2021

wattie said:

My bad, it's in his other Writings:

John Wesley's eighteenth-century conception of the Holiness movement developed the Pentecostal movement and the various Assemblies of God that emerged from roots in Methodism.

John Wesley on Slain in the Spirit:
April 4, 1764. — In the evening the Mayor and all the Gentry of the town were present; and so was our Lord in an uncommon manner. Some dropped down as dead; but, after a while, rejoiced with joy unspeakable. (WJW3:13)

July 14, 1759. —The Lord was wonderfully present, more than twenty persons feeling the arrows of conviction. Several fell to the ground; some of whom seemed dead; others, in the agonies of death, the violence of their bodily convulsions exceeding all description. There was also great crying and agonizing in prayer, mixed with deep and deadly groans on every side. (WJW2:11)

May 20, 1759. —Others fell down as dead; some sinking in silence; some with extreme pain and violent agitation. I stood on the pew-seat, as did a young man in the opposite pew, an able-bodied, healthy countryman; but in a moment, while he seemed to think of nothing less, down he dropped with a violence inconceivable; (WJW13, History Of The Methodists, Sec 74) 55
^
John Wesley claims HE was Slain in the Spirit! = [I stood on the pew-seat, as did a young man in the opposite pew, an able-bodied, healthy countryman; but in a moment, while he seemed to think of nothing less, down he dropped with a violence inconceivable;]

May 1, 1739. — The power of God (so I call it) came so mightily among us, that one, and another, and another, fell down as thunderstruck.
(WJW12, Letter To His Brother Samuel, dated May 10, 1739)56

June 12, 1742. — I preached on the righteousness of the Law and the righteousness of faith. While I was speaking, several dropped down as dead; (WJW1:5)

THERE IS LITERALLY 20 MORE EXAMPLES OF JOHN WESLEY WRITING DOWN HIS WITNESSING AND BEING SLAIN IN THE SPIRIT!

HE SPEAKS ALSO OF EXAMPLES OF HOLY LAUGHTER!

If you wish I can post several of those?

Overcome By Convulsions

At Wapping June 15, 1739. — While I was earnestly inviting all sinners to “enter into the holiest” by this “new and living way,”79 many of those that heard began to call upon God with strong cries and tears. Some sunk down, and there remained no strength in them; others exceedingly trembled and quaked: Some were torn with a kind of convulsive motion in every part of their bodies, and that so violently, that often four or five persons could not hold one of them. (WJW1:3)

Overwhelming Power Of The Holy Spirit At Everton
May 30, 1759. — Being with Mr. B——ll at Everton, I was much fatigued and did not rise. But Mr. B. did, and observed several fainting and crying out while Mr. B—— e was preaching. Afterward, at church, I heard many cry out, especially children, whose agonies were amazing: One of the eldest, a girl ten or twelve years old, was full in my view, in violent contortions of body, and weeping aloud, . (WJW2:11)

Just some examples from John Wesley's own Writings that help to later spur on the Pentecostal Movement!

Pilgrimshope · Oct 5, 2021

Gideon300 said:

there is little faith left in the world so the gifts of the spirit are hard to see and believe.

Aaron56 · Oct 5, 2021

Pilgrimshope said:

And this is why the love of most becomes cold: the people refuse to accept the gifts of the Spirit.

The standard of love, for believers, was demonstrated by Christ: He only did what He saw the Father doing. Jesus said that we are to love as He loved. So the standard of love is the same for Christ and man: that we only do what we see the Father doing. This requires revelation and understanding: we can only see what the Father is doing by seeing what the Father is doing. God is spirit, so this cannot mean that we are to see with our natural eyes. We are to see with the eyes of our spirit, this is called revelation. We also cannot say "Well, understand the Bible so that you can copy God". While we can gain much from studying the Bible, we cannot see what our Father is doing in the moment. That only comes by revelation. Otherwise, we will make exhaustive lists of "Christian rules" (like Calvin) and create another form of law.

Any way, this is why the love of most is cold: they deny the power of the Spirit. Without the Spirit men cannot love as Christ loved. They can love like they think they should love but their direction will be based upon tradition and principles, not on the leading of the Spirit. By denying the power of the Spirit they disqualify themselves to the end that Christ will never know them.

Aaron56

Pilgrimshope · Oct 5, 2021

Aaron56 said:

we can only see what the father wills for us by hearing and believing the gospel by learning what Christ did and would have us do he is the manifestation of the the father we can see and know. Who came for short time in history and walked among men loving , teaching , blessing and promising us eternal life.

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-9‬ ‭

to know Jesus in the gospel what he taught , how he lived , what he told us of the father and his love for us and for others his teachings and word and command of how we are to represent him in the world . Is to know the fathers spirit

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true,

and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-17, 20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Evmur · Oct 6, 2021

wattie said:

'slong as they dare not actually manifest themselves

Will the real second Pentecost please stand up

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