The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

[DavidTree]

They are saying Noah was pre-trib raptured - by being lifted up above the flood (Great Tribulation) and so in effect He was taken to Heaven and then brought back to earth. This is how they seek to establish pre-trib in OT accounts.

What they fail to realize is that the 'Flood' was God's wrath.
Noah went through great tribulation such as the world never before witnessed to that time in Noah's day.
God kept Noah during those years of great tribulation just as our Lord is Keeping and will continue to Keep those who are His unto His Second Coming. Keeping us in Him, no matter what we face, He never forsakes or leaves us.

Just like Noah - when Christ returns, we will not suffer God's wrath = the wrath of the Lamb.
Like Noah we will be Lifted Up - First the Resurrection and then those who remain and are alive at His Coming - After the Tribulation.

Matthew 24: 29-31 Immediately after the Tribulation - Comes the Lord and we are gathered UP.

They seek to establish what God never said - pre-trib rapture.

 

[rayzor]

ell me, you who want to be under the law, do you not understand what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born through the promise.

These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren woman,

who bears no children;

break forth and cry aloud,

you who have never travailed;

because more are the children of the desolate woman

than of her who has a husband.”

What i meant was this: Two Jerusalems, the One from above is our Spiritual Birth Mother - So, those prophets/saints who have been martyred for their prophetic witness of Christ have been killed all over the world outside of the earthly Jerusalem which is in bondage with her children - the Jews/nation of Israel according to the flesh.
And yet, the Scripture is fulfilled for they were never separated from Jerusalem from ABOVE.

The law in that context is a lie.Many times it was said in old testament mercy not the slaughter of animals.Also the just shall live by faith not the law. It is in fact one of the greatest lies of the old and new testament.If Jesus say it it is not of the law but of grace.

 

[DavidTree]

Disagree, the whole bible must be in harmony, don't be scared of people quoting verses to show you where they develop their opinions from. Also the Holy Spirit teaches us in harmony with the Word, it is living and powerful, and the Gospel writers along with the Lord Quoted 100s of scripture from the old testament.

Ah so you don't understand the pre-trib position, I was agreeing there is no pre-trib rapture in these verses of Mt 24, but I was also saying there is no Post trib here in Matthew 24, In fact I was also trying to give you an answer to How do mortal believers enter into the 1000yr kingdom, for if they are all raptured and changed at the end of tribulation there are no mortal believers left.

Pre-trib actually gives a credible and logical answer to what mortals enter the Messianic Kingdom.



The verses in Matt 24 are not a new thing it was already prophesied,

Here a remnant has survived and are gathered out of the countries and they come back to Israel.

Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Eze 11:16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.

Even the trumpet to gather them is not a new thing

Isa 27:12-13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.





True, did you see my point about those who are resurrected and raptured, according to 1Cor 15 and Thessalonians are with the Lord and come with Him in the clouds, those in Matt 24, don't appear to be with him but they see Him come to the earth in clouds

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds.

i am not afraid - and your scripture verse you provided are true but not one is pre-trib rapture.

You said correctly that the Scripture is Harmonious TRUE - but pre-trib is not in Scripture - no lie is of the truth.

Matthew 24 is in perfect Harmony with 1 Thess & 2 Thess and Daniel 7 and 1 John 2:18 and Revelation

No one is able to find just one pre-trib scripture, because it does not exist and never came from the Mouth of God.

Perfect example: You said Matt 24 does not say post trib - i mean come on already - get over yourself - this is childish

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

 

[DavidTree]

i am not afraid - and your scripture verse you provided are true but not one is pre-trib rapture.

You said correctly that the Scripture is Harmonious TRUE - but pre-trib is not in Scripture - no lie is of the truth.

Matthew 24 is in perfect Harmony with 1 Thess & 2 Thess and Daniel 7 and 1 John 2:18 and Revelation

No one is able to find just one pre-trib scripture, because it does not exist and never came from the Mouth of God.

Perfect example: You said Matt 24 does not say post trib - i mean come on already - get over yourself - this is childish

Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,

and the moon will not give its light;

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.b’

30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Who ever said everybody is raptured - not me - this also is incorrect

I AGREE - two thirds of the Jews will perish in DoJT and God will rescue a third. They will be gathered but not raprured for they are not part of the Body of Christ.

 

[John146]

They are saying Noah was pre-trib raptured - by being lifted up above the flood (Great Tribulation) and so in effect He was taken to Heaven and then brought back to earth. This is how they seek to establish pre-trib in OT accounts.

What they fail to realize is that the 'Flood' was God's wrath.
Noah went through great tribulation such as the world never before witnessed to that time in Noah's day.
God kept Noah during those years of great tribulation just as our Lord is Keeping and will continue to Keep those who are His unto His Second Coming. Keeping us in Him, no matter what we face, He never forsakes or leaves us.

Just like Noah - when Christ returns, we will not suffer God's wrath = the wrath of the Lamb.
Like Noah we will be Lifted Up - First the Resurrection and then those who remain and are alive at His Coming - After the Tribulation.

Matthew 24: 29-31 Immediately after the Tribulation - Comes the Lord and we are gathered UP.

They seek to establish what God never said - pre-trib rapture.

Noah is more of a type of Jew during the tribulation. Enoch could be a type of church age saint who is taken by the Lord.

 

[rayzor]

Scripture is Harmonious yes and no for those that love patterns it will often break rhythm because again they confuse the bible with the spirit.To do so is idolatry.
it really does depend on what passage and what bible...and the bible has oppositisms but they are few.

 

[DavidTree]

Disagree, the whole bible must be in harmony, don't be scared of people quoting verses to show you where they develop their opinions from. Also the Holy Spirit teaches us in harmony with the Word, it is living and powerful, and the Gospel writers along with the Lord Quoted 100s of scripture from the old testament.
.

You said: did you see my point about those who are resurrected and raptured, according to 1Cor 15 and Thessalonians are with the Lord and come with Him in the clouds, those in Matt 24, don't appear to be with him but they see Him come to the earth in clouds

This my friend is twisting of scripture to support a lie - very BAD to do.
You have been duped by the spirit of error and it's carnal lie = pre-trib
READ who is coming with Christ - those who have died in Him - the spirits/souls of His dead Saints.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

How in the world did you ever come up with anything other then this in 1 Thess 4

Christ is not bringing resurrected saints - this is a COMPLETE LIE.

Christ is bringing with Him "those who died in Him" so that HE can Resurrect them.

 

[rayzor]

Noah is more of a type of Jew during the tribulation. Enoch could be a type of church age saint who is taken by the Lord.

His name is also spelled Henoch I would guess him to be a type of Christ if not the Christ. Seeing that he was taken at the age 365 = a perfect life

 

[DavidTree]

Noah is more of a type of Jew during the tribulation. Enoch could be a type of church age saint who is taken by the Lord.

my personal conviction, is that Enoch was taken for the purpose of being returned to face again the fallen angel(s) of Revelation - the Beast that ascended from the Abyss. Since it is appointed unto all men to die. Same with Elijah.

The witness and life of Elijah completely destroys the lie of pre-trib - so now please review what took place there and WHEN he was taken - Read where he was and what exactly was said just before He was raptured UP -
Absolutely destroys the lie of pre-trib.

PEACE

 

[John146]

my personal conviction, is that Enoch was taken for the purpose of being returned to face again the fallen angel(s) of Revelation - the Beast that ascended from the Abyss. Since it is appointed unto all men to die. Same with Elijah.

The witness and life of Elijah completely destroys the lie of pre-trib - so now please review what took place there and WHEN he was taken - Read where he was and what exactly was said just before He was raptured UP -
Absolutely destroys the lie of pre-trib.

PEACE

It is appointed for man once to die, but there are exceptions, Enoch being one of them. And what about those who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord? They will not suffer death.

 

[rayzor]

It not a big deal 1 Chronicles to me i see he knocks Me thew see laugh Lam meek.

 

[John146]

The witness and life of Elijah completely destroys the lie of pre-trib - so now please review what took place there and WHEN he was taken - Read where he was and what exactly was said just before He was raptured UP -
Absolutely destroys the lie of pre-trib.

His life has nothing to do with the church. He is a prophet and witness to Israel.

 

[rayzor]

Enoch = "dedicated" I'm adding here but it's safe to say: dedicated to god in chronicles 1:3 he name is spelled Henoch

1. eldest son of Cain
2. son of Jared and father of Methuselah whom God took home to heaven without dying

 

[DavidTree]

It is appointed for man once to die, but there are exceptions, Enoch being one of them. And what about those who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord? They will not suffer death.

YES, that is the point about Enoch and Elijah - they did not cheat death - God will send them back(imho) to face Jezebel and the Beast and the Beast that ascended from the pit - this is a fallen angel - will kill them.

Those Saints who are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord will not see death because it is the Lord's Second Coming.

Jesus said: I AM the RESURRECTION

We are to be looking for our Lord's Return and the RESURRECTION -

Jesus never said I am the pre-trib rapture.... and He never said "I will pre-trib rapture my Church/Bride'

Key word here is pre-trib never came out of the Mouth of God.

We are commanded to only believe and live from every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God.

Stay far away from what God did not say and STAY with the every Word that God did say.

But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

 

[DavidTree]

His life has nothing to do with the church. He is a prophet and witness to Israel.

I said the events surrounding Elijah including his rapture/departure destroys the lie of pre-trib.

Was it you who said Enoch is like the Church and Noah like the Jew??? YES it was

But now you are going to say that Elijah had nothing to do with the church or like - not good my friend - not good

 

[stilllearning]

They are saying Noah was pre-trib raptured - by being lifted up above the flood (Great Tribulation) and so in effect He was taken to Heaven and then brought back to earth. This is how they seek to establish pre-trib in OT accounts.

What they fail to realize is that the 'Flood' was God's wrath.
Noah went through great tribulation such as the world never before witnessed to that time in Noah's day.
God kept Noah during those years of great tribulation just as our Lord is Keeping and will continue to Keep those who are His unto His Second Coming. Keeping us in Him, no matter what we face, He never forsakes or leaves us.

Just like Noah - when Christ returns, we will not suffer God's wrath = the wrath of the Lamb.
Like Noah we will be Lifted Up - First the Resurrection and then those who remain and are alive at His Coming - After the Tribulation.

Matthew 24: 29-31 Immediately after the Tribulation - Comes the Lord and we are gathered UP.

They seek to establish what God never said - pre-trib rapture.

I would have to agree see no connection between Noah and a pretrib rapture. Christ said in Luke as it was in the days of Noah and as it was in the days of Lot. Peter shows the distinction in II Peter2. Verses 5-9 says, 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds 9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

It says God saved Noah and God delivered Lot. Saved is the Greek word phulassó which means, to guard to watch. It is in preservation you watch over or set a guard over to keep safe to keep a eye on.

It says God delivered Lot which is the Greek word rhuomai which means, to rescue, to deliver. It is used to draw or snatch up to ones self to save from danger.

In the story of Lot we have a rapture or a snatching away from danger and placing in a safe place. Genesis 19:15-16 says, 15And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. 16And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

Lot was being a little to slow so the angels brought him forth and set him outside the city. The Hebrew word being used here is yanach which means, bestow, cast down, lay down, up, leave off, let alone remain, pacify, place. Same word that God uses when he says he placed the man in the Garden.

The angels took Lot from one place to another they did so to save him from danger to save him ultimately from the wrath that God poured out on Sodom.

So I agree Noah is not a good example since Noah was saved or he had a eye kept on him in the midst of God pouring out his wrath. Lot would be the better example of a pretrib rapture since he was spatially removed from one spot to another to be rescued or delivered from the wrath of God.

 

[John146]

Those Saints who are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord will not see death because it is the Lord's Second Coming.

And Enoch is a picture of this.

 

[John146]

I said the events surrounding Elijah including his rapture/departure destroys the lie of pre-trib.

Was it you who said Enoch is like the Church and Noah like the Jew??? YES it was

But now you are going to say that Elijah had nothing to do with the church or like - not good my friend - not good

Elijah is a Jewish prophet. All his actions are for the Jews, not the church. Elijah will appear in the tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble. The church is gone.

 

[DavidTree]

I would have to agree see no connection between Noah and a pretrib rapture. Christ said in Luke as it was in the days of Noah and as it was in the days of Lot. Peter shows the distinction in II Peter2. Verses 5-9 says, 5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds 9
The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

It says God saved Noah and God delivered Lot. Saved is the Greek word phulassó which means, to guard to watch. It is in preservation you watch over or set a guard over to keep safe to keep a eye on.

It says God delivered Lot which is the Greek word rhuomai which means, to rescue, to deliver. It is used to draw or snatch up to ones self to save from danger.

In the story of Lot we have a rapture or a snatching away from danger and placing in a safe place. Genesis 19:15-16 says, 15And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. 16And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

Lot was being a little to slow so the angels brought him forth and set him outside the city. The Hebrew word being used here is yanach which means, bestow, cast down, lay down, up, leave off, let alone remain, pacify, place. Same word that God uses when he says he placed the man in the Garden.

The angels took Lot from one place to another they did so to save him from danger to save him ultimately from the wrath that God poured out on Sodom.

So I agree Noah is not a good example since Noah was saved or he had a eye kept on him in the midst of God pouring out his wrath. Lot would be the better example of a pretrib rapture since he was spatially removed from one spot to another to be rescued or delivered from the wrath of God.

Beautiful except your last sentence - get rid of the word pre-trib and everything is perfect.

Lot was not pre-tribbed - he was in the very middle of it right to the very End just as Noah and Elijah were.

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,

And this passage also destroys the lie of pre-trib.

Noah and Lot in the midst of great tribulation leading up to God's wrath but delivered from the wrath of God.

Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace.
In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1.) wait for JESUS
2.) the Ressurection
3.) Delivered from God's wrath - the wrath of the Lamb

 

[DavidTree]

And Enoch is a picture of this.

And Enoch walked with God in the midst of great tribulation until the day that God took Him.

But Enoch returns (imho) to face the fallen angel from the Abyss and along with him Elijah who must face Jezebel the Harlot and these Two Witnesses will, once again be in the midst of Great Tribulation and when their ministry is done - they will be killed.

imho