The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???
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My guess is you already know the pre-trib view point of this, so my challenge to you is, just to be open minded and to see if when you combine all the verses of the bible together form either post or pre trib, to see if it does line up.
Verse 30 of Matt 24, (immediately after the tribulation) tells us the tribes will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds and they will mourn, the tribes are Israel, please Note: they see Him coming, not see themselves coming with Him!
They will look upon the one whom they have pierced and from the four corners or winds of the earth they will be gathered to Israel, these are the unchanged/mortals who enter into the promised Kingdom, who will be over the other nations for a thousand years.
A trumpet or shofar is always used to gather and to signal Israel to move, so does not have to point to the trumpet sounded for the Church.
This lines up perfectly and harmonises all of scripture with the pre-trib point of view as opposed to dealing with verses in isolation.
lol, Im sure from a one eyed post trib point of view there are no verses whatsoever that show a pre-trib view
How about the one where Jesus will not leave His bride to endure the day of the Lord, the terrible day of His wrath.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1thes5:9
Or the verse that tells us the day of the Lord shall not come till the departure occurs first,
1thes 2:2-3 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ(the Lord) is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first(departure), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
Isa 13:6-9 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Exactly, the tribulation saints have to be resurrected as well, they are not going to be left dead for eternity are they.
Lol, to hold a different non essential point of view to you does not suggest those that disagree with you are making God a liar, nor making a new gospel, or making God change His mind, I would never use such tactics because I learn new things all the time and believe it or not it makes me change my stance on certain positions, so I would never berate anyone not for not agreeing 100%
with me, in case I change my mind.
Verse 30 of Matt 24, (immediately after the tribulation) tells us the tribes will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds and they will mourn, the tribes are Israel, please Note: they see Him coming, not see themselves coming with Him!
They will look upon the one whom they have pierced and from the four corners or winds of the earth they will be gathered to Israel, these are the unchanged/mortals who enter into the promised Kingdom, who will be over the other nations for a thousand years.
A trumpet or shofar is always used to gather and to signal Israel to move, so does not have to point to the trumpet sounded for the Church.
This lines up perfectly and harmonises all of scripture with the pre-trib point of view as opposed to dealing with verses in isolation.
lol, Im sure from a one eyed post trib point of view there are no verses whatsoever that show a pre-trib view
How about the one where Jesus will not leave His bride to endure the day of the Lord, the terrible day of His wrath.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1thes5:9
Or the verse that tells us the day of the Lord shall not come till the departure occurs first,
1thes 2:2-3 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ(the Lord) is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first(departure), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
Isa 13:6-9 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Exactly, the tribulation saints have to be resurrected as well, they are not going to be left dead for eternity are they.
Lol, to hold a different non essential point of view to you does not suggest those that disagree with you are making God a liar, nor making a new gospel, or making God change His mind, I would never use such tactics because I learn new things all the time and believe it or not it makes me change my stance on certain positions, so I would never berate anyone not for not agreeing 100%
with me, in case I change my mind.
This is what every false doctrine/teacher does (not saying you, so be not offended)
They pile on as many different scriptures as they can and then say: 'See, its right here'
This is not how our Lord taught the Disciples and this is not how the Holy Spirit teaches us.
Start with what Jesus did say - NOT with what He did not say.
Go back to Matt 24
The Bride of Christ/His Disciples came up to the BrideGroom /JESUS and asked Him:
"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?
and what shall be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the world? "
No pre-trib rapture in any verse in Matthew 24
What did JESUS say: starting verse 29
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This is repeated in 1 Thess and 2 Thess - they were in great distress, persecution and tribulation
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Acts 1
Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven?
This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.
ALL Things spiritual belong to God - not you or me.
This is the most Spiritual Thing of God to know - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
and everything that comes after this.
And this is this the foundation for understanding spiritual Truth:
Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers is giving you.
You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, Deut 4:1-2
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. Prov 30:5-6
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelatin 22:18-19
This is the most Spiritual Thing of God to know - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
and everything that comes after this.
And this is this the foundation for understanding spiritual Truth:
Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers is giving you.
You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, Deut 4:1-2
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. Prov 30:5-6
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelatin 22:18-19
My guess is you already know the pre-trib view point of this, so my challenge to you is, just to be open minded and to see if when you combine all the verses of the bible together form either post or pre trib, to see if it does line up.
Verse 30 of Matt 24, (immediately after the tribulation) tells us the tribes will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds and they will mourn, the tribes are Israel, please Note: they see Him coming, not see themselves coming with Him!
They will look upon the one whom they have pierced and from the four corners or winds of the earth they will be gathered to Israel, these are the unchanged/mortals who enter into the promised Kingdom, who will be over the other nations for a thousand years.
A trumpet or shofar is always used to gather and to signal Israel to move, so does not have to point to the trumpet sounded for the Church.
This lines up perfectly and harmonises all of scripture with the pre-trib point of view as opposed to dealing with verses in isolation.
lol, Im sure from a one eyed post trib point of view there are no verses whatsoever that show a pre-trib view
How about the one where Jesus will not leave His bride to endure the day of the Lord, the terrible day of His wrath.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1thes5:9
Or the verse that tells us the day of the Lord shall not come till the departure occurs first,
1thes 2:2-3 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ(the Lord) is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first(departure), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
Isa 13:6-9 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Exactly, the tribulation saints have to be resurrected as well, they are not going to be left dead for eternity are they.
Lol, to hold a different non essential point of view to you does not suggest those that disagree with you are making God a liar, nor making a new gospel, or making God change His mind, I would never use such tactics because I learn new things all the time and believe it or not it makes me change my stance on certain positions, so I would never berate anyone not for not agreeing 100%
with me, in case I change my mind.
Verse 30 of Matt 24, (immediately after the tribulation) tells us the tribes will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds and they will mourn, the tribes are Israel, please Note: they see Him coming, not see themselves coming with Him!
They will look upon the one whom they have pierced and from the four corners or winds of the earth they will be gathered to Israel, these are the unchanged/mortals who enter into the promised Kingdom, who will be over the other nations for a thousand years.
A trumpet or shofar is always used to gather and to signal Israel to move, so does not have to point to the trumpet sounded for the Church.
This lines up perfectly and harmonises all of scripture with the pre-trib point of view as opposed to dealing with verses in isolation.
lol, Im sure from a one eyed post trib point of view there are no verses whatsoever that show a pre-trib view
How about the one where Jesus will not leave His bride to endure the day of the Lord, the terrible day of His wrath.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1thes5:9
Or the verse that tells us the day of the Lord shall not come till the departure occurs first,
1thes 2:2-3 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ(the Lord) is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first(departure), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.
Isa 13:6-9 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Exactly, the tribulation saints have to be resurrected as well, they are not going to be left dead for eternity are they.
Lol, to hold a different non essential point of view to you does not suggest those that disagree with you are making God a liar, nor making a new gospel, or making God change His mind, I would never use such tactics because I learn new things all the time and believe it or not it makes me change my stance on certain positions, so I would never berate anyone not for not agreeing 100%
with me, in case I change my mind.
ALL THings belongs to GOD,
The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Ps 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
Hag 2:8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.
Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Totally disagree, just gave you the foundation of spiritual truth, not the schoolmaster.
Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
What Rock?
Matt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Ps 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
Hag 2:8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.
Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Totally disagree, just gave you the foundation of spiritual truth, not the schoolmaster.
Matt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
What Rock?
Matt 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
When thou are in tribulation, and all these things are happen you, even in the latter days, if you turn to God,you shall be obedient unto his voice; [In short he shall help you]
Jacob's Trouble is part of the Great Tribulation but the GT is not limited to DoJT.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate;
for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate;
for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
TOOLS
Luk 13:33
Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written:
“Rejoice, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have never travailed;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”
What i meant was this: Two Jerusalems, the One from above is our Spiritual Birth Mother - So, those prophets/saints who have been martyred for their prophetic witness of Christ have been killed all over the world outside of the earthly Jerusalem which is in bondage with her children - the Jews/nation of Israel according to the flesh.
And yet, the Scripture is fulfilled for they were never separated from Jerusalem from ABOVE.
Disagree, the whole bible must be in harmony, don't be scared of people quoting verses to show you where they develop their opinions from. Also the Holy Spirit teaches us in harmony with the Word, it is living and powerful, and the Gospel writers along with the Lord Quoted 100s of scripture from the old testament.
Ah so you don't understand the pre-trib position, I was agreeing there is no pre-trib rapture in these verses of Mt 24, but I was also saying there is no Post trib here in Matthew 24, In fact I was also trying to give you an answer to How do mortal believers enter into the 1000yr kingdom, for if they are all raptured and changed at the end of tribulation there are no mortal believers left.
Pre-trib actually gives a credible and logical answer to what mortals enter the Messianic Kingdom.
The verses in Matt 24 are not a new thing it was already prophesied,
Here a remnant has survived and are gathered out of the countries and they come back to Israel.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Eze 11:16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
Even the trumpet to gather them is not a new thing
Isa 27:12-13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
True, did you see my point about those who are resurrected and raptured, according to 1Cor 15 and Thessalonians are with the Lord and come with Him in the clouds, those in Matt 24, don't appear to be with him but they see Him come to the earth in clouds
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds.
Ah so you don't understand the pre-trib position, I was agreeing there is no pre-trib rapture in these verses of Mt 24, but I was also saying there is no Post trib here in Matthew 24, In fact I was also trying to give you an answer to How do mortal believers enter into the 1000yr kingdom, for if they are all raptured and changed at the end of tribulation there are no mortal believers left.
Pre-trib actually gives a credible and logical answer to what mortals enter the Messianic Kingdom.
The verses in Matt 24 are not a new thing it was already prophesied,
Here a remnant has survived and are gathered out of the countries and they come back to Israel.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Eze 11:16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Although I have cast them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little sanctuary in the countries where they shall come.
Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
Even the trumpet to gather them is not a new thing
Isa 27:12-13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
True, did you see my point about those who are resurrected and raptured, according to 1Cor 15 and Thessalonians are with the Lord and come with Him in the clouds, those in Matt 24, don't appear to be with him but they see Him come to the earth in clouds
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds.
Any thing seen is not new, centuries has looked for God outside them is a natural mind that can believe good and evil that Jesus showed how to defeat judging and boast. When you wake you can't judge anyone. Any group that only believes the natural mind repeats! You can't believe Imagination is God in man that Jesus hinted Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
The Bible isn't secular history its Divine Allegory that happen in you. Ecclesiastes 3:15: “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.” The “natural man” cannot grasp that, for to him reality is based only on the evidence of the senses. The man of reason could justify the verse’s end, saying if it has any meaning then the writer must mean recurrence. The sun comes every day and the moon completes its cycle and the seasons come and go. If we took a picture of the universe today, the scientists can compute how long it will take to return to this point in the picture. So the intellectual man could justify the verse; but that is not what is meant, for it is addressed not to the man of reason or the man of sense, but to the man of Imagination. What is it all about? “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been, and God seeks what has been driven away.”
The Bible isn't secular history its Divine Allegory that happen in you. Ecclesiastes 3:15: “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away.” The “natural man” cannot grasp that, for to him reality is based only on the evidence of the senses. The man of reason could justify the verse’s end, saying if it has any meaning then the writer must mean recurrence. The sun comes every day and the moon completes its cycle and the seasons come and go. If we took a picture of the universe today, the scientists can compute how long it will take to return to this point in the picture. So the intellectual man could justify the verse; but that is not what is meant, for it is addressed not to the man of reason or the man of sense, but to the man of Imagination. What is it all about? “That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been, and God seeks what has been driven away.”