Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Justified]

Perhaps I worded it poorly when I referred my answer to someone who said, paraphrasing them from memory, everyone everywhere can choose Salvation.

As to your question, I trust God means what he said and said what he meant when he told us he predestined whom he would save.
How long will you deny God telling us he wrote the names of those he predestined for Salvation in the Lamb's Book of Life before he created a world where people will later need Saving?

How long will you deny Paul's telling you the natural man cannot understand the words of God because they are spiritually discerned?

How long will you deny God predestination of Jesus' crucifixion?

How long will you deny Jesus telling us no one comes to him unless the Father draws them?

How do you not know the Bible contains prophecy? Which is to say, God's predestination of things according to his will and plan?
And how Jesus and saving grace in the New Testament were foretold, predestined, as revealed in those prophecies of the Old?

Acts 4

And when you're one of God's Elect, what's your issue?

We that refer to those scriptures didn't write them. We read them as God's word to the world.

I take God at his word.

Isaiah 45:7

Your going need to show where I have done all the things you purport that I have done. You love to cast aspersions on others with abandon but with no foundation. An apology would be to much to expect from you.

>>I referred my answer to someone who said, paraphrasing them from memory, everyone everywhere can choose Salvation. <<

So I have to conclude that you do not agree with Jon 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. That seems to say that everyone has the potential to come to salvation. And when you couple this with Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." So is Christ Jesus only going to draw the elect and thus they are the only ones that can believe?

I have never denied that God knows all that will come to faith, you are just jumping to that conclusion because I do not follow the script you want me to. Knowing and causing are two different things. Think through what you are saying and promoting by your words.

If we insist that it is because of God's foreknowledge/predestination that we are saved, as you are promoting, then we have to agree that God also through His foreknowledge/predestination condemns others to hell. God's knowledge of what someone will do is not the cause of it happening.

>>How long will you deny Paul's telling you the natural man cannot understand the words of God because they are spiritually discerned?<<

You seem to think that just because Paul said that the “natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God” this equates to the natural man will never accept the things of the Spirit of God. If that were the case then no one would come to faith as we are all lost sinners, natural man, before we trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus. But thankfully Gods’ enlightenment, conviction, and drawing is extended to every sinner (Joh_1:9; Joh_16:8; Joh_12:32).

>>How long will you deny God predestination of Jesus' crucifixion? <<

Now you will have to show me where I have ever said or even suggested such a thing.

>>How long will you deny Jesus telling us no one comes to him unless the Father draws them? <<

You really have to learn that context matters. Who are those that come to Christ Jesus because they are drawn in Joh 6:44? Well just read one more verse to find out who Joh 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. And remember that this is a universal call just as Christ Himself said Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

You want the offer of salvation to be limited my question is why? You seem to be building your theology on selected passages instead of the whole counsel of God.

>>How do you not know the Bible contains prophecy? Which is to say, God's predestination of things according to his will and plan?
And how Jesus and saving grace in the New Testament were foretold, predestined, as revealed in those prophecies of the Old? <<

Oh I know about God plan for His creation, I actually study the scriptures. And I do so in context. You on the other hand love to cherry pick text that you think will support you distorted view.

>>I take God at his word.<<

Then you really need to learn how to read.

After reading a number of your comments on here the best I can say about you is the you are either deluded or a troll. Either way you are not worth the time or the effort for any further interaction.

 

[Hone]

OSAS....can never happen....unless you have grabbed hold of Christ, and followed him to GOD, till the very end of your life.
As proven by countless numbers of fallen who may have thought they were OSAS, until they fell.
There are some today who think they are OSAS, but will fall due to lack of understanding, or due diligence.

OSAS is possible, but highly improbable because we as humans have a tendency to get tempted.., the stubbornness of our nature,... and the lack of control & quick anger...BUT if we copy JESUS exactly(to the best of our ability),.. neutralise our natural urges,.. Love all GOD's creations including one another, for the rest of your natural born life, then logic/common sense implies success.
OSAS can be achieved, and is what a true Christian should be trying to obtain through following,... especially after baptism.
GODblessusall, on our journeys, may he protect and guide us all, & lead us on this path of righteousness.
......Let's All Aim To BE.... "Once Saved Always Saved"......

 

[Icedaisey]

Please show me in the bible how the spiritual and physical exist or live without each other.
Can i exist as a spirit, with no body? Floating around free from physical laws. And can i be physical and not have any spirit in me.
Adam was made from dust and God breathed into him life.

Genesis 2:7Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

 

[Icedaisey]

Your going need to show where I have done all the things you purport that I have done. You love to cast aspersions on others with abandon but with no foundation. An apology would be to much to expect from you.

>>I referred my answer to someone who said, paraphrasing them from memory, everyone everywhere can choose Salvation. <<

So I have to conclude that you do not agree with Jon 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. That seems to say that everyone has the potential to come to salvation. And when you couple this with Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." So is Christ Jesus only going to draw the elect and thus they are the only ones that can believe?

I have never denied that God knows all that will come to faith, you are just jumping to that conclusion because I do not follow the script you want me to. Knowing and causing are two different things. Think through what you are saying and promoting by your words.

If we insist that it is because of God's foreknowledge/predestination that we are saved, as you are promoting, then we have to agree that God also through His foreknowledge/predestination condemns others to hell. God's knowledge of what someone will do is not the cause of it happening.

>>How long will you deny Paul's telling you the natural man cannot understand the words of God because they are spiritually discerned?<<

You seem to think that just because Paul said that the “natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God” this equates to the natural man will never accept the things of the Spirit of God. If that were the case then no one would come to faith as we are all lost sinners, natural man, before we trust in the finished work of Christ Jesus. But thankfully Gods’ enlightenment, conviction, and drawing is extended to every sinner (Joh_1:9; Joh_16:8; Joh_12:32).

>>How long will you deny God predestination of Jesus' crucifixion? <<

Now you will have to show me where I have ever said or even suggested such a thing.

>>How long will you deny Jesus telling us no one comes to him unless the Father draws them? <<

You really have to learn that context matters. Who are those that come to Christ Jesus because they are drawn in Joh 6:44? Well just read one more verse to find out who Joh 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. And remember that this is a universal call just as Christ Himself said Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

You want the offer of salvation to be limited my question is why? You seem to be building your theology on selected passages instead of the whole counsel of God.

>>How do you not know the Bible contains prophecy? Which is to say, God's predestination of things according to his will and plan?
And how Jesus and saving grace in the New Testament were foretold, predestined, as revealed in those prophecies of the Old? <<

Oh I know about God plan for His creation, I actually study the scriptures. And I do so in context. You on the other hand love to cherry pick text that you think will support you distorted view.

>>I take God at his word.<<

Then you really need to learn how to read.

After reading a number of your comments on here the best I can say about you is the you are either deluded or a troll. Either way you are not worth the time or the effort for any further interaction.

You should read me again,. If you did you'd see nothing you claim I said to you is in my post.

The rest of your remarks based on that is your invention.

As to apology? Let me be very clear. I WILL NEVER APOLOGIZE for defending the truth of God in Christ and His word! Those who seek to abrogate the truth, on purpose because they are devils cloaked in wool, be warned! Those who are new to the faith, have been misled by false teachers, as there abound here, or denominational teachings that are corrupt, deserve to be led from the darkness to the light! And I and many like me are intent on that very thing.

To those opposed to the truth of God in Christ, whose purpose is to abrogate the scriptures because you have no respect for them and are devil's on a mission, you're going to really hate your destiny! When you laugh at the words now thinking the Bible is a myth, and something to be made sport of because you have nothing better to do with your day, when you're dead you're going to find out the joke is you! Eternally!

You don't make true Christians mad, happy to tell you when you thought just the opposite.
You see, the Bible told us you were coming.

And it tells us where you're headed.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I haven't been following this thread so forgive me if this has already been discussed.

It has occurred to me that what really lies behind the OSAS doctrine is the doctrine of hyper-grace. This teaches that not only have all our past sins been forgiven, but all our future sins as well. The logical outcome of this line of thinking is that it's impossible for us to ever lose our salvation.

If all our future sins have been forgiven, how could it be possible in the future to ever lose our salvation? But this isn't what the New Testament teaches. Our past sins have been forgiven, but in order to remain forgiven we need to confess, repent and ask for God's help. Thus we don't have to live a perfect life but we have to walk humbly with God. If our past sins are forgiven, but we start accumulating unconfessed present and future sins, this is a clear indication we don't have much of a relationship with God. "If we continue to sin willingly, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."—Hebrews

 

[Icedaisey]

OSAS....can never happen....unless you have grabbed hold of Christ, and followed him to GOD, till the very end of your life.
As proven by countless numbers of fallen who may have thought they were OSAS, until they fell.
There are some today who think they are OSAS, but will fall due to lack of understanding, or due diligence.

OSAS is possible, but highly improbable because we as humans have a tendency to get tempted.., the stubbornness of our nature,... and the lack of control & quick anger...BUT if we copy JESUS exactly(to the best of our ability),.. neutralise our natural urges,.. Love all GOD's creations including one another, for the rest of your natural born life, then logic/common sense implies success.
OSAS can be achieved, and is what a true Christian should be trying to obtain through following,... especially after baptism.
GODblessusall, on our journeys, may he protect and guide us all, & lead us on this path of righteousness.
......Let's All Aim To BE.... "Once Saved Always Saved"......

I think you would learn a great deal if you read Hebrews 10. Particularly verse 18.

Those who are in Christ are eternally sealed unto the end. We don't labor to stay saved, feel insecure while alive as Christians afraid we may do something that will cause our Salvation to be removed from us.
The Prodigal Son proved, those who are the Son(and Daughter) of God are so eternally! We have an inheritance that cannot be abandoned, squandered, or lost by our will or actions.
Those who are dead in their sins do not have an inheritance! Therein is the difference.

Those who walked away from Jesus when they once walked with him as his disciples, were not one of us. As Jesus observed. That's to tell you the difference between indwelt Holy Spirit Sealed Christians (OSAS) and Nominal Christians! Those who claim the name Christian, believe in Jesus because they think they can chose to do that as they would choose a shirt to wear for the day, and still act like the devil. Or, they do good works thinking these are going to be tallied like coins in their credit account in Heaven, so that when they arrive they can say, Lord, didn't I do good works in your name, didn't I heal people, didn't I......

And as Jesus said, his answer to them will be, I never knew you.

People who think they have to work to stay saved are afraid. And they should be. Jesus did all the work on the cross.

 

[Icedaisey]

I haven't been following this thread so forgive me if this has already been discussed.

It has occurred to me that what really lies behind the OSAS doctrine is the doctrine of hyper-grace. This teaches that not only have all our past sins been forgiven, but all our future sins as well. The logical outcome of this line of thinking is that it's impossible for us to ever lose our salvation.

If all our future sins have been forgiven, how could it be possible in the future to ever lose our salvation? But this isn't what the New Testament teaches. Our past sins have been forgiven, but in order to remain forgiven we need to confess, repent and ask for God's help. Thus we don't have to live a perfect life but we have to walk humbly with God. If our past sins are forgiven, but we start accumulating unconfessed present and future sins, this is a clear indication we don't have much of a relationship with God. "If we continue to sin willingly, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."—Hebrews

Boy are you wrong.

But I'll just look at this part: "If we continue to sin willingly, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."—Hebrews
You really think Jesus suffered all that he was predestined to suffer so that a Christian making a misstep takes the meaning and covenant promise behind that sacrifice away? 1 John 2, as one example, settles that.

When we are redeemed in Christ, repentant, as one of God's Elect, God remembers our sins no more.
And you think it to be "hyper-grace", to say, if God remembers our past sins no more, and we're a new creation, redeemed in Christ, washed clean of our sins, that this means God is going to start a fresh slate to record our future sins now? Sinners sin and are condemned. But in your doctrine, Redeemed Reborn Holy Spirit filled New Creations IN CHRIST are able to be sinners and have new sins counted against them by God?
And what? We get to a certain predetermined number of faults, sins, and we're kicked out of the Eternal Life club?

Your theology makes Christ's message and death on the cross as tissue paper. And just as easily abrogated by the whim of man.

 

[Icedaisey]

And Alien, if you think your theology is true, just post the scripture where God tells His Elect, if we sin He removes His Seal from us.

 

[Hone]

I think you would learn a great deal if you read Hebrews 10. Particularly verse 18.

Those who are in Christ are eternally sealed unto the end. We don't labor to stay saved, feel insecure while alive as Christians afraid we may do something that will cause our Salvation to be removed from us.
The Prodigal Son proved, those who are the Son(and Daughter) of God are so eternally! We have an inheritance that cannot be abandoned, squandered, or lost by our will or actions.
Those who are dead in their sins do not have an inheritance! Therein is the difference.

Those who walked away from Jesus when they once walked with him as his disciples, were not one of us. As Jesus observed. That's to tell you the difference between indwelt Holy Spirit Sealed Christians (OSAS) and Nominal Christians! Those who claim the name Christian, believe in Jesus because they think they can chose to do that as they would choose a shirt to wear for the day, and still act like the devil. Or, they do good works thinking these are going to be tallied like coins in their credit account in Heaven, so that when they arrive they can say, Lord, didn't I do good works in your name, didn't I heal people, didn't I......

And as Jesus said, his answer to them will be, I never knew you.

People who think they have to work to stay saved are afraid. And they should be. Jesus did all the work on the cross.

isn't the inheritance given to all, isn't GOD's purpose to "save us all"
what the prodigal son proved was that we can,... live with our father,... then leave the safety of his domain,.. live our own lives, make some errors,... realise what we did wrong,... then go back home to our father knowing through experience that you will never leave him again.
the leaving part can also imply "we know better" while living in the home.

Christians who think they have work to do to stay saved are following what is written in the Bible... we all should be afraid that we might not be saved, it turns into kind, caring, and loving human beings,... the understanding is,. not to do it because you expect it to save you for doing it
Remember "for no reward"

 

[Icedaisey]

isn't the inheritance given to all, isn't GOD's purpose to "save us all"
what the prodigal son proved was that we can,... live with our father,... then leave the safety of his domain,.. live our own lives, make some errors,... realise what we did wrong,... then go back home to our father knowing through experience that you will never leave him again.
the leaving part can also imply "we know better" while living in the home.

Was the Prodigal Son still the son of his Father when he returned home? Did his Father tell him he had to labor to be received again as His Son? Did the Father say, I don't know you. Go and labor in the field and prove yourself worthy of being called my son again?

Christians who think they have work to do to stay saved are following what is written in the Bible

Prove it.

we all should be afraid that we might not be saved, it turns into kind, caring, and loving human beings,... the understanding is,. not to do it because you expect it to save you for doing it
Remember "for no reward"

Prove it. Prove Jesus died to give us indeterminate Salvation, transitional redemption that is revoked the moment we make a false step. But first? Post the scripture that states, the Holy Spirit of God is a condemned sinner.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Christians who think they have work to do to stay saved are following what is written in the Bible...

I wouldn't say Christians have to work to stay saved, they just have to maintain their faith. True faith leads to actions, not perfection. If a person continues in sin and is unrepentant, this is a sure sign they've tossed out their faith.

"If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him."—1 John 2:29

 

[Justified]

how is it possible you miss the fact he is not telling justified he can be cut off. But the gentile church?

While some of the gentile can and will be cut off if they are unfaithful it is an individual cutting off not corporate. When we look at the text we see that.

When you want to see who Paul was speaking to we have to step back to

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles... {plural}

Rom 11:15 For if their being cast away {that is the Jews}

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off {individual not corporate}

Rom 11:17...and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them {singular}

Rom 11:19 You will say then,...that I might be grafted in. {both singular}

Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off,... {plural}

Rom 11:20 ...and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. {singular}

Rom 11:21 ...He may not spare you either. {singular}

Rom 11:22 ... but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. {both singular}

Rom 11:22 Otherwise you also will be cut off. {singular}

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree {singular}

The context shows that while Paul was speaking to Gentiles as a group. Within that group he was telling each one that although they had trusted in the God of the Jews through faith in Christ Jesus it was possible to be cut off by God for a personal lack of faith. In other words “Do not be haughty”. They could suffer the same fate as the Jews that disregarded faith in God.

Being cut off is an individual thing just as lack of faith is which leads to being cut off.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

While some of the gentile can and will be cut off if they are unfaithful it is an individual cutting off not corporate. When we look at the text we see that.

When you want to see who Paul was speaking to we have to step back to

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles... {plural}

Rom 11:15 For if their being cast away {that is the Jews}

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off {individual not corporate}

Rom 11:17...and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them {singular}

Rom 11:19 You will say then,...that I might be grafted in. {both singular}

Rom 11:20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off,... {plural}

Rom 11:20 ...and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. {singular}

Rom 11:21 ...He may not spare you either. {singular}

Rom 11:22 ... but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. {both singular}

Rom 11:22 Otherwise you also will be cut off. {singular}

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree {singular}

The context shows that while Paul was speaking to Gentiles as a group. Within that group he was telling each one that although they had trusted in the God of the Jews through faith in Christ Jesus it was possible to be cut off by God for a personal lack of faith. In other words “Do not be haughty”. They could suffer the same fate as the Jews that disregarded faith in God.

Being cut off is an individual thing just as lack of faith is which leads to being cut off.

sorry. Your understanding of romans 9-11 is skewerd
romans 11 is nit about individual salvation. It is about two peoples. The Jew and the gentile. It is about one getting cut off and another getting grafted in. And it is about warning the gentiles to Not be so puffed up. That God is It done with Israel
if you want to Convince me go Someplace else. We have beat rom 11 enough we can not agree

 

[Justified]

Dude you did not hear a word i said. I never said such a thing

you need to learn what spiritual death is.. Maybe thats your problem

I have had people call annihilationism eternal death that's why the comment. Spiritual death, separation from God, that is eternal.

 

[Hone]

Was the Prodigal Son still the son of his Father when he returned home? Did his Father tell him he had to labor to be received again as His Son? Did the Father say, I don't know you. Go and labor in the field and prove yourself worthy of being called my son again?

Prove it.

Prove it. Prove Jesus died to give us indeterminate Salvation, transitional redemption that is revoked the moment we make a false step. But first? Post the scripture that states, the Holy Spirit of God is a condemned sinner.

Proof? read the Bible.
The prodigal son is a parable like many others, given to test our personal understanding of what it means to follow Christ, (I tried to do the same and failed, obviously).
I don't think the father ever stopped calling him son, the son simply did what a lot of people do today..... leave home to start/find their own life, couldn't make it on his own, went back home, everything back to normal (probably go out to the fields in a day or two).....BUT ...because the story is based on GOD, it is of a Christian understanding....., so.....
the father is.....?
the son is .........?(in this case it's...who are?)
leaving the home is...?
coming home regretful is...?
father welcoming him home is...?

One last question....who ever said,"the Holy Spirit of GOD is a condemned sinner"?...I know I haven't, don't think I have read it on this thread,

GOD
us
Sinning/er's
repentance
acceptance/Christianity

 

[Justified]

sorry. Your understanding of romans 9-11 is skewerd
romans 11 is nit about individual salvation. It is about two peoples. The Jew and the gentile. It is about one getting cut off and another getting grafted in. And it is about warning the gentiles to Not be so puffed up. That God is It done with Israel
if you want to Convince me go Someplace else. We have beat rom 11 enough we can not agree

Yes I agree that it is about Jews & Gentiles but you have to understand that it is not people groups that loose faith it is individuals within people groups.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have had people call annihilationism eternal death that's why the comment. Spiritual death, separation from God, that is eternal.

If spiritual death was eternal no one could
Be made alive. And no one would suffer the second death

Spiritual death is separation from or being dead to God
if we are born again we have passed
From death to life. That life being deemed eternal Life
If we are not born again we die physically separated or dead to God. And after judgment will die the second death this will be eternal separation from god. There will be weeping and gnashing if teeth and the worm will not die

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes I agree that it is about Jews & Gentiles but you have to understand that it is not people groups that loose faith it is individuals within people groups.

Yes it is people groups
Jews were cut off as a people Group Jews are enemies concerning the gospel Jews are natural branches
gentiles are unnatural branches as a people group

 

[ResidentAlien]

Hebrews 11, the great faith chapter, which lists the actions of great men and women of faith, is followed by chapter 12. The first verse in chapter 12 says:

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,"

Through belief in Christ's atoning work on the cross we are essentially given the opportunity to "run the race." Unbelievers don't even get the opportunity.

 

[Icedaisey]

Proof? read the Bible.
The prodigal son is a parable like many others, given to test our personal understanding of what it means to follow Christ, (I tried to do the same and failed, obviously).
I don't think the father ever stopped calling him son, the son simply did what a lot of people do today..... leave home to start/find their own life, couldn't make it on his own, went back home, everything back to normal (probably go out to the fields in a day or two).....BUT ...because the story is based on GOD, it is of a Christian understanding....., so.....
the father is.....?
the son is .........?(in this case it's...who are?)
leaving the home is...?
coming home regretful is...?
father welcoming him home is...?

But see your prior post about the prodigal and then your statement that Christians who think they have to work to stay saved is in the Bible, isn't consistent.
Excerpted from your post #769
"isn't the inheritance given to all, isn't GOD's purpose to "save us all"
what the prodigal son proved was that we can,... live with our father,... then leave the safety of his domain,.. live our own lives, make some errors,... realise what we did wrong,... then go back home to our father knowing through experience that you will never leave him again.
the leaving part can also imply "we know better" while living in the home.

Christians who think they have work to do to stay saved are following what is written in the Bible......." [end]

We don't work to stay Saved either. That's also not in scripture. If we labored to stay saved, we wouldn't have what the Bible says we have, "ETERNAL Security".

One last question....who ever said,"the Holy Spirit of GOD is a condemned sinner"?...I know I haven't, don't think I have read it on this thread,

Those who say future sins are counted against us when we're Holy Spirit indwelt Christians.