Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Jocund]

Especially with regard to the part of your observations I made bold above. You should read Romans 11 first.

What does Romans chapter 11 mean?
This passage concludes a significant section of Paul's letter, contained in Romans 9—11. These three chapters ask and answer the question, "What about Israel?" This is an objection Paul's opponents often asked. If Israel is God's chosen people and they have rejected faith in Christ as the way of salvation, what will happen to them?

Paul has acknowledged that Israel has, for the most part, rejected faith in Christ. He begins this chapter by asking if that means that God has rejected Israel. His response is another resounding "no." After all, Paul himself is an Israelite who has come to faith in Christ and has been saved, showing that this is possible for all Jewish people. Paul refers to the smaller subset of Jewish people who have turned to Christ as a remnant, comparing them to the remnant of those in Israel who had not bowed to Baal in Elijah's day. By His grace (Romans 9:6–8), God has set aside this remnant of Jewish Christians as true Israel (Romans 11:1–5).

Paul also makes a clear point about any attempt to mix salvation by grace with salvation based on works. In short, they are totally incompatible. If something is truly by "grace," it cannot be in any way based on works, and vice versa (Romans 11:6).

What about the rest of Israel, though? What of those who refused to believe in Christ as the Messiah? Paul's startling revelation is that God has hardened their hearts in their initial unbelief. He has caused them to trip over the stumbling block of Jesus, but not permanently. Their hardening is only for a time (Romans 11:7–10).

One reason for Israel's unbelief, Paul writes, is to make room on the main body—referred to as "the root"— of God's tree. This open space is intended for the non-Jews in the world. These Gentiles who are coming to God through faith in Christ are like the branches of a wild olive tree that have been grafted onto the trunk of a cultivated plant. The old branches, unbelieving Jews, have been broken off for a time to make this possible (Romans 11:11–16).

Paul warns the Gentile Christians not to be arrogant toward these unbelieving Jews, however. The time is coming, after the right amount of the Gentiles have believed in Christ, when God will remove the hardening from the unbelieving Jews. They will turn to faith in Christ and, as a people, be grafted back onto God's symbolic olive tree, from which they had previously been pruned. God is not done with Israel (Romans 11:17–24).

In spiritual terms, the Israelites may be enemies of the gospel of faith in Jesus Christ, for now. They were certainly the spiritual enemies of Paul during his lifetime. And yet, the Jewish people of Israel remain deeply loved by God because of the promises He made to the patriarchs. God never breaks His promises. His gifts and His calling on Israel can't be taken back. God will use His grace and mercy toward the Gentile Christians to make Israel jealous. He will use these events to bring her back to Himself as a nation, in the form of those individual Jews who eventually trust in Christ at some future time (Romans 11:25–32).

Paul concludes this section with what has become a beloved poem, like a hymn, about the vast un-knowable-ness and independence of our merciful God (Romans 11:33–36).

An important note is that Romans 11:17-24 should not be confused to mean that "everyone that calls themselves Jews will be grafted back in" only those that do not persist in unbelief. Not all of Israel are Israel, not all that call themselves Jews are Jews. Not everyone that calls themselves Jewish or of Israel will be saved. The promise is not in vain because the seed of Abraham counted for the promise is Jesus Christ and those in Christ. These are principles that Paul discusses. There is no salvation for NonChristian Jews. But not all Jews are NonChristian, and some were never cut from the tree to begin with.

 

[Icedaisey]

An important note is that Romans 11:17-24 should not be confused to mean that "everyone that calls themselves Jews will be grafted back in" only those that do not persist in unbelief. Not all of Israel are Israel, not all that call themselves Jews are Jews. Not everyone that calls themselves Jewish or of Israel will be saved. The promise is not in vain because the seed of Abraham counted for the promise is Jesus Christ and those in Christ. These are principles that Paul discusses. There is no salvation for NonChristian Jews. But not all Jews are NonChristian, and some were never cut from the tree to begin with.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

 

[Justified]

"All" in the context of God's Elect.
Not Universalism. Not everyone everywhere who freely chooses....Only God's Elect.
We can't pick and choose and try to apply a go-around with regard to God's Sovereign choice before the world was created. He predestined whom he would for Salvation before the foundation (creation) of the world. Those names are written, were written, in the Lamb's Book of Life. But one of the books that shall, per Revelation, be opened at the judgment of all people.

And for those who think works has zero to do with being one of the Elect, because works of course do not gain us Salvation, those people may wish to read all of Revelation for context. Then they'll see that the Elect are also judged by their works, (as the elect). And are rewarded accordingly.

>>Not everyone everywhere who freely chooses....Only God's Elect. <<

You do not see the contradiction in what you just wrote?

How many scriptures do you have to be shown before you will see that God expects us to make a choice to either accept or reject His son.

>>He predestined whom he would for Salvation before the foundation (creation) of the world.<<

So if you hold to this view then you have to hold to the view that all those not picked were condemned to hell for no other reason than that God do not pick them. So we have billions of persons languishing in hell for that reason and no other.

romans 11 is about Saved and unsaved jews (Israel) and saved gentiles

It is not about losing salvation. It is that natural jews who rejected God were cut off. And gentiles who received Christ were grafted in.

He is telling gentile believers not to be puffed up in pride that they are part of Gods people and think to highly of themselves. That just as they were cut off and we were grafted in, we can be cut off also. It is easier for them being a natural branch. then us being unnatural branches

The truth is , when the time of the gentile is completed ALL Israel will be saved. The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. God is not done with Israel is the point. not individual salvation

How is it possible for you to miss the point of that text. Paul is telling them, the gentiles, that they can be cut off also just as the Jews had been. Do you really think that when God cuts someone of then they are still saved? If that were the case then why the warning about being cut off as it would not make any difference in their eternal future.

 

[Justified]

those in hell do not have eternal life

They suffer eternal death

Believers pass from death to life. And God calls that life eternal

He does not give conditional life. If he did he would have called it conditional life

A non believer is dead now. If he dies a non believer, he will die dead. And then he will be delivered to Christ. and suffer the second death

They do NOT have eternal life

So now you are saying that those in hell do not suffer? Now you are promoting annihilationism?

 

[Icedaisey]

>>Not everyone everywhere who freely chooses....Only God's Elect. <<

You do not see the contradiction in what you just wrote?

How many scriptures do you have to be shown before you will see that God expects us to make a choice to either accept or reject His son.

>>He predestined whom he would for Salvation before the foundation (creation) of the world.<<

So if you hold to this view then you have to hold to the view that all those not picked were condemned to hell for no other reason than that God do not pick them. So we have billions of persons languishing in hell for that reason and no other.


How is it possible for you to miss the point of that text. Paul is telling them, the gentiles, that they can be cut off also just as the Jews had been. Do you really think that when God cuts someone of then they are still saved? If that were the case then why the warning about being cut off as it would not make any difference in their eternal future.

Perhaps I worded it poorly when I referred my answer to someone who said, paraphrasing them from memory, everyone everywhere can choose Salvation.

As to your question, I trust God means what he said and said what he meant when he told us he predestined whom he would save.
How long will you deny God telling us he wrote the names of those he predestined for Salvation in the Lamb's Book of Life before he created a world where people will later need Saving?

How long will you deny Paul's telling you the natural man cannot understand the words of God because they are spiritually discerned?

How long will you deny God predestination of Jesus' crucifixion?

How long will you deny Jesus telling us no one comes to him unless the Father draws them?

How do you not know the Bible contains prophecy? Which is to say, God's predestination of things according to his will and plan?
And how Jesus and saving grace in the New Testament were foretold, predestined, as revealed in those prophecies of the Old?

Acts 4

And when you're one of God's Elect, what's your issue?

We that refer to those scriptures didn't write them. We read them as God's word to the world.

I take God at his word.

Isaiah 45:7

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How is it possible for you to miss the point of that text. Paul is telling them, the gentiles, that they can be cut off also just as the Jews had been. Do you really think that when God cuts someone of then they are still saved? If that were the case then why the warning about being cut off as it would not make any difference in their eternal future.

how is it possible you miss the fact he is not telling justified he can be cut off. But the gentile church?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So now you are saying that those in hell do not suffer? Now you are promoting annihilationism?

Dude you did not hear a word i said. I never said such a thing

you need to learn what spiritual death is.. Maybe thats your problem

 

[TMS]

Please show me in the bible how the spiritual and physical exist or live without each other.
Can i exist as a spirit, with no body? Floating around free from physical laws. And can i be physical and not have any spirit in me.
Adam was made from dust and God breathed into him life.

 

[TMS]

Perhaps I worded it poorly when I referred my answer to someone who said, paraphrasing them from memory, everyone everywhere can choose Salvation.

As to your question, I trust God means what he said and said what he meant when he told us he predestined whom he would save.
How long will you deny God telling us he wrote the names of those he predestined for Salvation in the Lamb's Book of Life before he created a world where people will later need Saving?

How long will you deny Paul's telling you the natural man cannot understand the words of God because they are spiritually discerned?

How long will you deny God predestination of Jesus' crucifixion?

How long will you deny Jesus telling us no one comes to him unless the Father draws them?

How do you not know the Bible contains prophecy? Which is to say, God's predestination of things according to his will and plan?
And how Jesus and saving grace in the New Testament were foretold, predestined, as revealed in those prophecies of the Old?

Acts 4

And when you're one of God's Elect, what's your issue?

We that refer to those scriptures didn't write them. We read them as God's word to the world.

I take God at his word.

Isaiah 45:7

We were all predestined to be saved, we were all predestined to be written in the book of life, because Jesus choose to die for our sins. When sin entered Jesus was destined to die that we might have life.
But the finial choice is ours.
We will not be forced to live without sin for eternity.
If people want to reject Gods gift that is our choice.
Being forced to love and forced to be loved is not true Love.

 

[Jocund]

How is it possible for you to miss the point of that text. Paul is telling them, the gentiles, that they can be cut off also just as the Jews had been. Do you really think that when God cuts someone of then they are still saved? If that were the case then why the warning about being cut off as it would not make any difference in their eternal future.

A good criticism and a valid interpretation, but it is possible that the branches represent family lines as opposed to individuals. Or to represent aspects of an individual as opposed to one branch per individual. In which case it wouldn't be an indication that OSAS is necessarily untrue but that there is a wider commentary on what can be lost.

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit." - John 15:2 KJV

 

[Icedaisey]

We were all predestined to be saved, we were all predestined to be written in the book of life, because Jesus choose to die for our sins. When sin entered Jesus was destined to die that we might have life.
But the finial choice is ours.
We will not be forced to live without sin for eternity.
If people want to reject Gods gift that is our choice.
Being forced to love and forced to be loved is not true Love.

Not a soul here has ever said Salvation is by force.
That is a claim conjured from a very dark imagination. And is wholly unscriptural. We were not all destined for Salvation. Universalism is a false teaching.

 

[Atheist2Apologist]

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

I am glad this is rooted in scripture. My rebuttal would be salvation is a gift, and we know it is immoral to give a gift and take it back, Christ was here to serve His Father's will and it is His will that none shall be lost. Finally Peter himself denied Christ, and Paul asked to be delivered from his flesh as we still have our fleshly nature even after Christ. Finally the word repent, actually means a changing of "mind" not necessarily of actions. The way you view sin and your desires your MIND changes about it, as in how you look at it.

In Matthew 24the context of it is that Jesus was speaking to the Jews about the Jews.

 

[Jocund]

Please show me in the bible how the spiritual and physical exist or live without each other.
Can i exist as a spirit, with no body? Floating around free from physical laws. And can i be physical and not have any spirit in me.
Adam was made from dust and God breathed into him life.

Revelation 1:10 might be an example of spirit without body.

 

[Lanolin]

The OSAS I guess didnt work out so well for Jim Jones. He kept going up to 'get saved' in the church revivals as a boy that they had to ban him from walking up. Or make a rule...I supose thats where the 'once saved always saved' stipulationcame from.

Preachers would go from place to place 'saving' people from hell, but it might have been the same people walking up all the time, they wouldnt know as it was a different town right?

 

[tourist]

The OSAS I guess didnt work out so well for Jim Jones. He kept going up to 'get saved' in the church revivals as a boy that they had to ban him from walking up. Or make a rule...I supose thats where the 'once saved always saved' stipulationcame from.

Preachers would go from place to place 'saving' people from hell, but it might have been the same people walking up all the time, they wouldnt know as it was a different town right?

The fire and brimstone preachers probably save the same people from hell that they saved the week before.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The fire and brimstone preachers probably save the same people from hell that they saved the week before.

Maybe those people forgot some sins they needed to repent from and had to get resaved to make sure. Or maybe they had some sin issue they loved but could not over come. So they need to keep trying because they are not sure

oh how insecurity of NOSAS fails people

 

[BillG]

Maybe those people forgot some sins they needed to repent from and had to get resaved to make sure.

Hmm it makes me wonder.

If those people who forgot some sins needed to repent of them how would they have remembered them?

And what on earth and why would they need to repent of them in order to be saved again?

What would such people who feel/believe this think what does repent mean?
What is entailed?

 

[tourist]

Maybe those people forgot some sins they needed to repent from and had to get resaved to make sure. Or maybe they had some sin issue they loved but could not over come. So they need to keep trying because they are not sure

oh how insecurity of NOSAS fails people

I much prefer the blessed assured hope of salvation and not having to live in constant fear of damnation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I much prefer the blessed assured hope of salvation and not having to live in constant fear of damnation.

In the hope of eternal life. Which God Who can not lie. Promised before time began.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hmm it makes me wonder.

If those people who forgot some sins needed to repent of them how would they have remembered them?

And what on earth and why would they need to repent of them in order to be saved again?

What would such people who feel/believe this think what does repent mean?
What is entailed?

I am not sure they know really. Which may be why the are so scared even f they do nt admit it