The Falling Away - Is this the rapture?

[DavidTree]

It has been strongly suggested that the "falling away" as spoken by the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the pre-trib rapture.
We who are His Body, as Belonging to Christ, must know the His answer from His Word so as not to be decieved.

When the Disciples asked our Lord Jesus Christ about His Return(the Second Coming) He gave this immediate Commandment & Warning.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. - Matthew 24: 3-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:1-4

The Apostle Paul combines the clear warning of the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 with His Second Coming and the "Falling Away".

So is the "falling away" = the departure in the form of a pre-trib rapture or is it a "falling away" a departure from truth = the Gospel?

 

[Gideon300]

It has been strongly suggested that the "falling away" as spoken by the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the pre-trib rapture.
We who are His Body, as Belonging to Christ, must know the His answer from His Word so as not to be decieved.

When the Disciples asked our Lord Jesus Christ about His Return(the Second Coming) He gave this immediate Commandment & Warning.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. - Matthew 24: 3-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:1-4

The Apostle Paul combines the clear warning of the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 with His Second Coming and the "Falling Away".

So is the "falling away" = the departure in the form of a pre-trib rapture or is it a "falling away" a departure from truth = the Gospel?

Taking verses in isolation is not always helpful. Yes, we will be seeing the falling away spiritually as people increase in lawlessness. This began in the 60's. I was young then and I did not understand what I was seeing. We are seeing the love of many grow cold. Has there been a more selfish, entitled, irresponsible generation? Parents glued to screens while their kids despair of getting their attention. Kids running rampant with no discipline and no consequences. Women lording it over their husbands and men treating women like dirt.

There never were any good old days. But it seems to me that life has become much easier for most people, yet people have become hard of heart and caring only for themselves. That is, of course, a generalisation. But I know what I've seen over the last 55 years. It's not pretty.

Some Christians (including me) believe that verse 7 clarifies this

. …6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.

Who is the one who restrains lawlessness? I believe the Holy Spirit. And where is the Holy Spirit now? In the Church. When the Church is taken up, there will be no more restraint. Satan will be free to do as he pleases. For a time.

 

[DavidTree]

Taking verses in isolation is not always helpful. Yes, we will be seeing the falling away spiritually as people increase in lawlessness. This began in the 60's. I was young then and I did not understand what I was seeing. We are seeing the love of many grow cold. Has there been a more selfish, entitled, irresponsible generation? Parents glued to screens while their kids despair of getting their attention. Kids running rampant with no discipline and no consequences. Women lording it over their husbands and men treating women like dirt.

There never were any good old days. But it seems to me that life has become much easier for most people, yet people have become hard of heart and caring only for themselves. That is, of course, a generalisation. But I know what I've seen over the last 55 years. It's not pretty.

Some Christians (including me) believe that verse 7 clarifies this

. …6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.

Who is the one who restrains lawlessness? I believe the Holy Spirit. And where is the Holy Spirit now? In the Church. When the Church is taken up, there will be no more restraint. Satan will be free to do as he pleases. For a time.

This next verse pertains to this thread in a most important way - Matthew 18:15-16
If your brother sins against you, go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

There are Three Witnesses who testify that the falling away is indeed a departure from the Gospel.

Those who seek to establish the error of a pre-trib rapture uses the 'falling away' in 2 Thess 2 to say that this Scripture is the "departure / rapture of the saints - this is sin by changing Scripture which is forbidden by God.

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. Proverbs 30:5-6

Can you find those Three Witnesses are our Lord Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul, the Apostle John.

The First Witness you have from Paul - Can you find the other Two Scripture verses/passages that Witness to the TRUTH.

 

[DavidTree]

The Apostle Paul combines the clear warning of the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 with His Second Coming and the "Falling Away".

So is the "falling away" = the departure in the form of a pre-trib rapture or is it a "falling away" a departure from truth = the Gospel?

Human opinion alone on this important subject is not valid - Please confirm one way or the other with Scripture.

Our LORD JESUS makes this Challenge for TRUTH = Prove it by the word of Two or Three Authoritative Witnesses = Matthew 18:16

*** This is NOT about nor am i questioning "once saved always save" - so please do not misunderstand the topic - THANK YOU ***

 

[DavidTree]

Taking verses in isolation is not always helpful. Yes, we will be seeing the falling away spiritually as people increase in lawlessness. This began in the 60's. I was young then and I did not understand what I was seeing. We are seeing the love of many grow cold. Has there been a more selfish, entitled, irresponsible generation? Parents glued to screens while their kids despair of getting their attention. Kids running rampant with no discipline and no consequences. Women lording it over their husbands and men treating women like dirt.

There never were any good old days. But it seems to me that life has become much easier for most people, yet people have become hard of heart and caring only for themselves. That is, of course, a generalisation. But I know what I've seen over the last 55 years. It's not pretty.

Some Christians (including me) believe that verse 7 clarifies this

. …6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.

Who is the one who restrains lawlessness? I believe the Holy Spirit. And where is the Holy Spirit now? In the Church. When the Church is taken up, there will be no more restraint. Satan will be free to do as he pleases. For a time.

You, my BROTHER are 100% CORRECT in saying that it is ONLY the HOLY SPIRIT that restrains "IT" - "the lawless one"

You are one of the few who i know that correctly divides the Word of Truth.

 

[walknlight]

Hi!

The Apostle Paul combines the clear warning of the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 with His Second Coming and the "Falling Away".

Not the same words used in the Greek
Mat 24:10, And then shall manyG4183 be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

ἀποστασία (apostasía | ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Derivation: feminine of the same as G647;
Strong's: defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy")
KJV: —falling away, forsake.
See: G647

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall departG868 from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1Ti 4:1 AV)

ἀφίστημι (aphístēmi | af-is'-tay-mee)
Derivation: from G575 and G2476;
Strong's: to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.
KJV: —depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self

Heb 6:6 If they shall fallG3895 away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

παραπίπτω (parapíptō | par-ap-ip'-to)
Derivation: from G3844 and G4098;
Strong's: to fall aside, i.e. (figuratively) to apostatize
KJV: —fall away.

God Bless!

 

[DavidTree]

Hi!

Not the same words used in the Greek
Mat 24:10, And then shall manyG4183 be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

ἀποστασία (apostasía | ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Derivation: feminine of the same as G647;
Strong's: defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy")
KJV: —falling away, forsake.
See: G647

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall departG868 from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1Ti 4:1 AV)

ἀφίστημι (aphístēmi | af-is'-tay-mee)
Derivation: from G575 and G2476;
Strong's: to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.
KJV: —depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self

Heb 6:6 If they shall fallG3895 away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

παραπίπτω (parapíptō | par-ap-ip'-to)
Derivation: from G3844 and G4098;
Strong's: to fall aside, i.e. (figuratively) to apostatize
KJV: —fall away.

God Bless!

EXCELLENT - can you find the one from the Apostle John that speaks directly and in complete agreement with Paul 2 Thess 2

 

[walknlight]

EXCELLENT - can you find the one from the Apostle John that speaks directly and in complete agreement with Paul 2 Thess 2

They all agree, surely context is KEY...
The word(s) must be used in the context it was written.....

 

[DavidTree]

They all agree, surely context is KEY...

Yeah, this 'context' thing will be another Thread - i agree with 'context' but it is only a tool just like grammar and is not, nor ever does, replace the Holy Spirit - as some believe it does in their error.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. - Matthew 24: 3-4

[...; re: 2Th2:3...]
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless

We could start off with discerning the TWO DISTINCT words for "DECEIVE" in these two [distinct] passages.


--in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 / Lk21:8 the English word "DECEIVE" is the Greek word "G4105" (verb), and is RELATED to the noun-word [G4106] in 2Th2:11 translated into English as "DELUSION [/ERROR]" (<--which, in 2Th2:11, is in the context of the "future" Trib yrs, when "the man of sin" will be existing on the earth doing the 2Th2:9b things, involving the "[whose coming is] AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN, with all power and signs a LYING WONDERS... " [etc]);


--in 2Th2:3 the English word "DECEIVE" is "G1818" and is done by any false claimants back then or even today, who (as 2Th2:15 suggests) teach contrary to those things which "YE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT, whether by word or by letter FROM US."

(This ^ is NOT speaking of the time period in which "the man of sin" will exist [doing his thing for "7 yrs"], nor of the same "DECEIVE" word used when Jesus spoke of same in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 / Lk21:8, which WILL BE when he will exist on the earth to DO all he is slated to DO "IN HIS TIME" i.e. in the 7 Trib yrs)





Examining this DISTINCTION between these two "DECEIVE" words (in their DISTINCT CONTEXTS), would be a first step toward proper "understanding" IMHO.

 

[DavidTree]

We could start off with discerning the TWO DISTINCT words for "DECEIVE" in these two [distinct] passages.

--in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 / Lk21:8 the English word "DECEIVE" is the Greek word "G4105" (verb), and is RELATED to the noun-word [G4106] in 2Th2:11 translated into English as "DELUSION [/ERROR]" (<--which, in 2Th2:11, is in the context of the "future" Trib yrs, when "the man of sin" will be existing on the earth doing the 2Th2:9b things, involving the "[whose coming is] AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN, with all power and signs a LYING WONDERS... " [etc]);


--in 2Th2:3 the English word "DECEIVE" is "G1818" and is done by any false claimants back then or even today, who (as 2Th2:15 suggests) teach contrary to those things which "YE HAVE BEEN TAUGHT, whether by word or by letter FROM US."

(This ^ is NOT speaking of the time period in which "the man of sin" will exist [doing his thing for "7 yrs"], nor of the same "DECEIVE" word used when Jesus spoke of same in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 / Lk21:8, which WILL BE when he will exist on the earth to DO all he is slated to DO "IN HIS TIME" i.e. in the 7 Trib yrs)





Examining this DISTINCTION between these two "DECEIVE" words (in their DISTINCT CONTEXTS), would be a first step toward proper "understanding" IMHO.

If you are deceived - you are deceived - distinction of what type of deception you are under is useful.

Are you able to find the Scripture, 'without adding or taking away' that directly agrees with the Apostle Paul in 2 Thess 2 'falling away' -
CLUE: The Witness is another Apostle.

 

[walknlight]

Yeah, this 'context' thing will be another Thread - i agree with 'context' but it is only a tool just like grammar and is not, nor ever does, replace the Holy Spirit - as some believe it does in their error.

Word usage is VERY important especially in the Greek...
All words do not mean the same thing.
Mis application of a word could lead to error. I.E Love...

God Bless!

 

[DavidTree]

Word usage is VERY important especially in the Greek...
All words do not mean the same thing.
Mis application of a word could lead to error. I.E Love...

God Bless!

Just as i said: context and grammar are tools for us to use.

The Watchtower re guilty of changing Scripture with the letter 'a' in John 1:1.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The Apostle Paul combines the clear warning of the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 with His Second Coming and the "Falling Away".

In view of what I put in my previous post, I do not see how what you say here "is so" (as least not in the sense that you are intending it, esp. per your OP).



[by the way, "the beginning of birth PANGS" where the Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 / Lk21:8 "DECEIVE" word is used, takes place at the START of the "7 yrs" not at the END of the "7 yrs" i.e. "His Second Coming" to the earth Rev19]

 

[DavidTree]

In view of what I put in my previous post, I do not see how what you say here "is so" (as least not in the sense that you are intending it, esp. per your OP).

Well now, you are in need of clear vision of the spoken/written Word on this subject, and this Thread was designed for all to know and love Truth - 'Thy Word is TRUTH'.

We can only be Sanctified in His Truth - the Word.

Just because you do not believe does not mean it does not exist - PEACE

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT (to my previous post):

"[by the way, "the beginning of birth PANGS" where the Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 / Lk21:8 "DECEIVE" word is used, takes place at the START of the "7 yrs" not at the END of the "7 yrs" i.e. "His Second Coming" to the earth Rev19; IOW, Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 . Lk21:8 speak of the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period, aka the 7-yr TRIB ASPECT of it]"

 

[walknlight]

Just as i said: context and grammar are tools for us to use.

The Watchtower re guilty of changing Scripture with the letter 'a' in John 1:1.

No creed to the Hebrew/Greek, huh?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

or is it a "falling away"

The Greeks had a word for "FALL" / "TO FALL"... "pipto"... The word in 2Th2:3 is NOT THAT word.

 

[DavidTree]

No creed to the Hebrew/Greek, huh?

God is in control - He gave us His Son and through Whom we have Salvation.
Yet God is so great He gives even more of Himself - He offers to us His HOLY SPIRIT - Luke 3:16, Acts 1, 1 Corinthians
God has always been in control over His written word - the Scriptures - it fails us not.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

David you didn't !